Too Much White Sugar?

[_lppaiva]

Since "Peating" I have increased a lot my milk intake and coffee intake, and as such had to increase my sugar intake. I usually use 10g of sugar per 100g of Milk and 20-25g of sugar per 250ml if Coffee. For all you Imperials, that's about 2 tbsp for each cup of coffee.

I know that I don't go so overboard as some members do, but I'm still reluctant, mostly because I don't supplement much. Besides collagen and magnesium, I don't really supplement that much. I consume an average of 100g of white sugar a day, primarily with milk and coffee. That means around a Pint of Whole milk for me and 2-3 cups of coffee. My overall diet isn't that bad, I hit most of my micros, which I have myself increased. I mainly eat papaya, banana, Guavas without the seeds, oranges, coffee, whole milk, local cheese, ground chuck, 80g of liver twice a week, collagen, eggs, gelatin. Cook with coconut oil and butter mainly. I usually eat a starch at night, either potatoes, white sweet potatoes some rare occasions rice. Also, for some reason I consume a truck load of Kale, mainly with lunch and dinner.

Since I am young (18) and have "high" caloric requirements (I am testing out with 2800-3000kcal and see how I feel after eating mostly a 1800-2000kcal diet), the sugar really helps. I am more worried about the frequency, as I do this daily. By the looks of my diet, and being I don't supplement, can this amount of sugar lead to any deficiency?

Supplements Id like to use:
BCAA to offset Tryptophan from meat
Vitamin E (Can't find one in Brazil with high doses)
Vitamin K2 (Same issue)
Aspirin (don't have the above to support high dosage)
There is also the cost factor. I am really on a budget so I can't give myself the luxury of buying supplements or eating 3000kcal from "peaty" fruits only (bananas don't spoil as quickly, and I use papaya, orange, etc mostly for variety) and quality products (most dairy here has some additives. The best I got is a UHT milk with "only" sodium citrate. That's why I like so much meat and probably couldn't give it up)

I am having some weird mild chest and liver pain also, mostly at the end of the day. Only complaint after "Peating"

 

[methylenewhite]

Supplements Id like to use:
BCAA to offset Tryptophan from meat
Vitamin E (Can't find one in Brazil with high doses)
Vitamin K2 (Same issue)
Aspirin (don't have the above to support high dosage)

I have no problems ordering vitamins from iherb or vitacost to Brazil. Already received 10+ orders. Stay lower 200 RS for each order. You can order vit E and K.

Remember!!!
It's vitamin K1 is to negate aspirin bleeding issues, not K2.

K1 in Brazil you can get in any drugstore without prescription. It's called Kannakion MM active compound is called Fitomenadiona in Português. Only 15Rs you get 5 ampules 10 mg of K1. You can inject or drink it. 10 mg is a lot you can take one ampule every 2-3-4 weeks depending on your aspirin dosage.
Also if your are crazy as me you can get veterinary vitamin K1 for about the same price in any agropecuária.

Good aspirin is by EMS company. 2Rs. 500mg.

BCAA pure powder you get from mercadolivre. There is a vendor called Soldiers Nutrition. They sell pure powders. Pure BCAA tastes bad in the beginning. It's is much cheaper then branded BCAA with all shitty additives. My cat eats it!!! I believe it's a sign of good quality.

 

[boris]

Remember!!!
It's vitamin K1 is to negate aspirin bleeding issues, not K2.

Peat says both K1 and K2 will work similarly against the blood thinning effect.

Also there's this from here: Vitamin K1 Vs. K2 And How Much To Take With Aspirin?

The ability of K1 to do *anything* in the body will be directly affected by one's ability to convert K1 to K2, and then by the amount of carbon dioxide available. This is because before K1 can affect the carboxylation (activation) of proteins involved in *both clotting and bone calcification* it has to be converted to K2.

So, that's really nice if K1 works for some people, but that's not going to be the case for everyone. That's because K1 is converted to K2 by digestive flora and the endogenous enzyme vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKORC1). There are several polymorphisms in the VKORC1 gene which can affect the downstream activation of both enzymes involved in bone calcification (osteocalcin) and clotting (clotting factors). Taking antibiotics or living in a sterile environment can ameliorate K2 levels in rats.

Aspirin specifically works on this system by increasing bleeding, and also inhibiting VKORC1. So, expecting K1 to work -- well, that's basically cheering it on to compete with aspirin to activate rather than inhibit VKORC1. But taking K2 bypasses VKORC1 entirely, ensuring that a certain amount of K works on the gamma glutamyl carboxylase enzyme to carboxylate (activate) downstream processes, whereas that is going to be lessened in the situation where one is taking K1 alone, expecting it to compete with the inhibitor (aspirin) of VKORC1. (I explained this in two different ways in this paragraph, so hopefully that is not too confusing).

There are also potential polymorphisms in the gamma glutamyl carboxylase gene -- the enzyme that carboxylates the downstream proteins involved in both bone calcification and clotting. So, the rate limiting factors for this step are going to be 1) availability of ****K2***** (not K1), 2) availability of CO2, and 3) active gamma glutamyl carboxylase enzyme.

So, in short, in order to increase the likelihood of aspirin not being problematic, one should be taking K2, and being sure to otherwise support respiration such that there would be enough CO2, and be aware that there could be an extra challenge in the sense of gastrointestinal flora or genetics for some individuals. Those individuals might have indication of this possibility through 1) easy bruising, 2) petechiae or other signs of bleeding, 3) gastrointestinal ulceration, or 4) spitting up blood.

Of course, perhaps there are no actual metabolic roadblocks, and a person is just overdosing on aspirin in the face of a deficiency in vitamin K, which could be from eating a low-fat diet, other other drain on the clotting system (years of PUFA), which would decrease both absorption and dietary availability of the nutrient.

But it seems like a no-brainer to me: supplement aspirin, eat low-fat, and either don't take any K, or take mostly K1, and sure, there may be some ulceration or bleeding problems. Or development of cavities or bone fractures.

A better course of action is probably to supplement K2, eat a moderate amount of fat, and supplement aspirin after establishing this groundwork.

 

[schultz]

10g seems like a lot for only 100ml of milk.

I do consume about 5 or 6 TBSP of sugar per day myself, but I usually consume it with skim milk and instant coffee which I feel makes up for it. Skim milk is more nutritionally dense than something like whole milk (80 calories vs. 150 calories for the same amount of nutrients) and the instant coffee adds some minerals and a vitamin or 2. I use 375g of milk with 1 TBSP of sugar and 5g of instant coffee. Comparing it to something like a banana, 950 calories of this milk, sugar and coffee combo is very similar magnesium and potassium wise to the bananas.

7.5 cups skim milk + 25g instant coffee + 5 TBSP white sugar:
955 calories
3,751 mg potassium
284 mg magnesium

9 medium bananas:
945 calories
3,802 mg potassium
288 mg magnesium

8.5 cups orange juice:
948 calories
4,215 mg potassium
232 mg magnesium


So I consider it similar to consuming fruit, except milk also has several other nutrients, including zinc and selenium + protein. If you add a drop of Energin to each latte then you are doing even better. If you're getting your vitamins and minerals then I think it's perfectly fine to consume white sugar.

 

[theLaw]

Since "Peating" I have increased a lot my milk intake and coffee intake, and as such had to increase my sugar intake. I usually use 10g of sugar per 100g of Milk and 20-25g of sugar per 250ml if Coffee.

I usually eat a starch at night, either potatoes, white sweet potatoes some rare occasions rice.

Peat has said that white sugar + starch can cause problems.

 

[boris]

@theLaw interesting, do you have more info on that?

 

[ExCarniv]

Peat has said that white sugar + starch can cause problems.

Nah, Steak, mashed potatoes and Coca-Cola ftw

 

[methylenewhite]

Peat says both K1 and K2 will work similarly against the blood thinning effect.

Probably it's true. But I don't give advice if I'm not sure about something. K1 works for sure.

 

[ExCarniv]

10g seems like a lot for only 100ml of milk.

I do consume about 5 or 6 TBSP of sugar per day myself, but I usually consume it with skim milk and instant coffee which I feel makes up for it. Skim milk is more nutritionally dense than something like whole milk (80 calories vs. 150 calories for the same amount of nutrients) and the instant coffee adds some minerals and a vitamin or 2. I use 375g of milk with 1 TBSP of sugar and 5g of instant coffee. Comparing it to something like a banana, 950 calories of this milk, sugar and coffee combo is very similar magnesium and potassium wise to the bananas.

7.5 cups skim milk + 25g instant coffee + 5 TBSP white sugar:
955 calories
3,751 mg potassium
284 mg magnesium

9 medium bananas:
945 calories
3,802 mg potassium
288 mg magnesium

8.5 cups orange juice:
948 calories
4,215 mg potassium
232 mg magnesium


So I consider it similar to consuming fruit, except milk also has several other nutrients, including zinc and selenium + protein. If you add a drop of Energin to each latte then you are doing even better. If you're getting your vitamins and minerals then I think it's perfectly fine to consume white sugar.

This is interesting, specially for people who have troubles to get good quality fruit or too much fiber wreck their gut.

I do consume two big large milk+coffee+sugar per day, I don't have problems with one banana per day, better if cooked, more than one gives me some bloating, so maybe a third big cup of milk could made up for the lack of fruit.

I need to stay below 15g of fiber, so this is an interesting approach.

 

[lampofred]

Nah, Steak, mashed potatoes and Coca-Cola ftw

When Ray Peat, who unreservedly recommends sugar consumption, himself warns that refined sugar shouldn't be combined with starches, then it would probably be best to take heed... If you end up with any weird metabolic complications down the line then any mainstream doctor is just going to say "I told you so that sugar is bad for you".

That's why I'm doing my best to get sugar from only fruit juices, since I know I can't completely eliminate starches.

 

[johnsmith]

When Ray Peat, who unreservedly recommends sugar consumption, himself warns that refined sugar shouldn't be combined with starches, then it would probably be best to take heed... If you end up with any weird metabolic complications down the line then any mainstream doctor is just going to say "I told you so that sugar is bad for you".

That's why I'm doing my best to get sugar from only fruit juices, since I know I can't completely eliminate starches.

I didn’t know about some of this. I normally add extra sugar to my fruit juices but I also avoid starch, should I stop consuming so much sugar in my diet? I noticed @Blossom said she gets most of her carbs from honey and I thought that was an interesting idea.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw interesting, do you have more info on that?

In the winter in the US, I use a lot of frozen orange juice concentrate, because good fruit is scarce. When you use refined sugar it’s important to avoid the starchy foods, emphasizing milk, cheese, eggs, fruits, and occasional liver and seafood. Cooked leafy greens and mushrooms should substitute for starchy vegetables.

from : What's Wrong With Sugar And Starch Combining

 

[boris]

Thanks a lot @theLaw according to the thread it seems sugar and starch shouldn't be combined because there won't be enough minerals accompanying the carbs and it has no relation to endotoxin. Good to know.

@johnsmith Adding more sugar should be no problem you just have to make sure to have increased nutrient and mineral intake too.

 

[Blossom]

I didn’t know about some of this. I normally add extra sugar to my fruit juices but I also avoid starch, should I stop consuming so much sugar in my diet? I noticed @Blossom said she gets most of her carbs from honey and I thought that was an interesting idea.

I don’t adding sugar to fruit juice should be a problem at all if it works well for you.
Edit: as long as you are getting adequate nutrients in general.

 

[_lppaiva]

Skim milk is more nutritionally dense than something like whole milk (80 calories vs. 150 calories for the same amount of nutrients)

Yeah, I'd love to get skim milk. It would honestly help keeping my fat low (I aim for 45g but I usually get 60g for 120g of protein and 350-400g of carbs). But this really bugged me out:

Tip: Another Reason to Avoid Low-Fat Milk | T Nation

I know the source isn't the best and it's only one study, but this really made me worry and it made some sense.

" 'Milk consumption resulted in a significant increase in urinary estrone (E1) excretion, whereas estradiol (E2), estriol (E3), and 16ketoE2 excretion only increased after semi-skimmed milk consumption.'
Moreover, the semi-skimmed milk led to a higher percentage of conjugated estrogens, which are the most bioavailable form of estrogen and have a longer half-life. They're also the type found in birth control pills.

The scientists theorized that maybe the fat in the whole milk inhibited the enzymes needed to deconjugate the estrogen."

Also, the brand of milk I get is UHT, but it's totally reliable (never had issues with it). They do produce semi skimmed and skim milk, but I haven't found it yet. Wish we had 1% where I live, as it's the perfect ratio of fats/carbs/protein.

 

[ExCarniv]

Yeah, I'd love to get skim milk. It would honestly help keeping my fat low (I aim for 45g but I usually get 60g for 120g of protein and 350-400g of carbs). But this really bugged me out:

Tip: Another Reason to Avoid Low-Fat Milk | T Nation

I know the source isn't the best and it's only one study, but this really made me worry and it made some sense.

" 'Milk consumption resulted in a significant increase in urinary estrone (E1) excretion, whereas estradiol (E2), estriol (E3), and 16ketoE2 excretion only increased after semi-skimmed milk consumption.'
Moreover, the semi-skimmed milk led to a higher percentage of conjugated estrogens, which are the most bioavailable form of estrogen and have a longer half-life. They're also the type found in birth control pills.

The scientists theorized that maybe the fat in the whole milk inhibited the enzymes needed to deconjugate the estrogen."

Also, the brand of milk I get is UHT, but it's totally reliable (never had issues with it). They do produce semi skimmed and skim milk, but I haven't found it yet. Wish we had 1% where I live, as it's the perfect ratio of fats/carbs/protein.

White bread have like 10x More strongen than milk. Don't worry about it.

 

[_lppaiva]

White bread have like 10x More strongen than milk. Don't worry about it.

Yeah, but their phytoestrogens, which are like 1,000x weaker. I think that those are the least of the worries. Milk has a "high" estrogen content, but it's bioavalibility is low and the stress response is offset by all the benefits (calcium, progesterone).

That's why studies analyzing the "bioavalibility" worry me. Anytime we change a food we may completly alter it's structure. I initially see no problem in skimming fat from milk, as it seems like a more physical process than chemical, but I honestly don't know how these companies do it, so you never know.

 

[_lppaiva]

7.5 cups skim milk + 25g instant coffee + 5 TBSP white sugar:

I always had this doubt, how do you guys consume those amounts throughout the day? Do you prepare one batch and eat it throughout the day? Do you sip in every half an hour or do you spread it in meal like portion?

 

[_lppaiva]

Peat has said that white sugar + starch can cause problems.

Yeah, I never got that

First off, Peat talks profoundly well about potatoes if properly cooked and good digestion is in place (which I think is my case since I am young). Being that in his quote is "starchy foods", it may refer to legumes, beans, etc, which have considerable amounts of resistant starch and oligosaccharides. (Granted he later on mentioned "starchy vegetables", so that may be a weak point).

Second, the only problems I see with starch are it's insulin response, as stated by haidut in the Starch and Sugar combining post, and the endotoxin. Being that Ray is recommending green leafy vegetables, which even cooked are probably on pair with starch regarding endotoxin, I don't think that's his main point. Also, this wouldn't be exclusive to the scenario of sugar+starch (the only option I can think of is sugar feeding the bacteria promoted by starch). Second, Peat is specifically talking about sugar+starch combination, so @haidut 's point wouldn't make sense (it is a really valid point, but not in the context of the combination of sugar and starch, as the insulin response would be the same or even higher in absence of sugar).

Also, the "nutrient depleation" (or better phrased as "increased demand", taking into account haidut's points on the mentioned post) doesn't make sense either. Potatoes, for instance, are loaded with nutrients, while sugar isn't. I think we highly underestimate our nutritional needs. I use Chronometer and I have a hard time hitting the RDA's (which are themselves underestimated) with a 3000kcal diet, being that I consume dense foods like meat and fish! I doubt that most peoples estimated intake is enough to provide the proper Nutrition a high intake of sugar would entail, unless one is consistently eating oysters and liver + supplements.

I don't have access to neither besides liver, so the lack of supplements really obliges me to eat mostly whole foods. If I eliminate starch I am screwed. Bananas, white sweet potatoes (which have fructose) and potatoes are really cheap. That leaves me mostly with grapes, which are expensive to be a staple of my diet. Dates, same issue+not many Nutrients, and oranges, Guavas and papaya. I can usually get a good price on those, specially oranges, but It would also become expensive to rely soly on those. Bananas are a real staple, due the absence of vitamin C (perfect for eating with meat) and extreme cheapness. I also try to listen to different opinions besides Peat, but that still obey the same principles of Metabolism and PUFA. Atom Bergstrom, Matt Blackburn, Josh Ruben, etc all successfully apply starch to their "protocols".

Also, why would starch+sugar (glucose+fructose) be an issue, but not starch+fruit?

 

[ExCarniv]

Yeah, I never got that

First off, Peat talks profoundly well about potatoes if properly cooked and good digestion is in place (which I think is my case since I am young). Being that in his quote is "starchy foods", it may refer to legumes, beans, etc, which have considerable amounts of resistant starch and oligosaccharides. (Granted he later on mentioned "starchy vegetables", so that may be a weak point).

Second, the only problems I see with starch are it's insulin response, as stated by haidut in the Starch and Sugar combining post, and the endotoxin. Being that Ray is recommending green leafy vegetables, which even cooked are probably on pair with starch regarding endotoxin, I don't think that's his main point. Also, this wouldn't be exclusive to the scenario of sugar+starch (the only option I can think of is sugar feeding the bacteria promoted by starch). Second, Peat is specifically talking about sugar+starch combination, so @haidut 's point wouldn't make sense (it is a really valid point, but not in the context of the combination of sugar and starch, as the insulin response would be the same or even higher in absence of sugar).

Also, the "nutrient depleation" (or better phrased as "increased demand", taking into account haidut's points on the mentioned post) doesn't make sense either. Potatoes, for instance, are loaded with nutrients, while sugar isn't. I think we highly underestimate our nutritional needs. I use Chronometer and I have a hard time hitting the RDA's (which are themselves underestimated) with a 3000kcal diet, being that I consume dense foods like meat and fish! I doubt that most peoples estimated intake is enough to provide the proper Nutrition a high intake of sugar would entail, unless one is consistently eating oysters and liver + supplements.

I don't have access to neither besides liver, so the lack of supplements really obliges me to eat mostly whole foods. If I eliminate starch I am screwed. Bananas, white sweet potatoes (which have fructose) and potatoes are really cheap. That leaves me mostly with grapes, which are expensive to be a staple of my diet. Dates, same issue+not many Nutrients, and oranges, Guavas and papaya. I can usually get a good price on those, specially oranges, but It would also become expensive to rely soly on those. Bananas are a real staple, due the absence of vitamin C (perfect for eating with meat) and extreme cheapness. I also try to listen to different opinions besides Peat, but that still obey the same principles of Metabolism and PUFA. Atom Bergstrom, Matt Blackburn, Josh Ruben, etc all successfully apply starch to their "protocols".

Also, why would starch+sugar (glucose+fructose) be an issue, but not starch+fruit?

Don't over complicate, bananas, potatoes are ok if you don't have issues digesting them.

Some other Peatish people out there like Chris Walker or Tim Berzin are researching constantly and they are in favor of potatoes and common fruits like bananas, strawberries, oranges etc

I think white sugar is ok for bulking calories if you're getting enough nutrients from other sources and I don't see the difference between white sugar or fruit with starch, only extreme sick or old people could get problems.