Starch - The Delicious Devil

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"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there? Grains are proven to be one of several causes of Alzheimers. I know is true in my own father's case. It is called "grain brain". My father is a normal healthy person until he eats grains. After he eats a meal, with wheat particularly, he goes into a trance, where he won't talk much for several days and can't remember much of anything.

There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

What happened to mankind that we have come so far from valuing food for how it strengthens us, like liver and heart, to choosing foods that we know are going to make us slow, ill and fat? I am not excluding myself from the latter. I justify a good bowl of pasta, by saying it is made with a better wheat from Italy and "look at all the protein I am getting". I know better, but yet I make the weaker choice too. I summize we make less optimal choices because nothing is really expected from our bodies anymore. Tribal hunters NEED to be strong and WANT to prove they are SUPERIOR. They need to be FAST and sustain ENERGY. Their eating optimally meant getting the next meal. Nowaday a meal is there without much effort. We can AFFORD to make LESS optimal choices because we TAKE our health for granted and value INDULGENCES more, never thinking of the COST. Look at the key words in the two different ways of eating.

In my youth when I saw a lot of life ahead of me I chose the "Live To Eat" stance, now that my youth is many years behind me I have changed my mind and now want to "Eat To Live". I just don't see the fun in ruining my health anymore.
 

OccamzRazer

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I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there?
Yes! According to Dr. Peat himself, there really isn't any debate.

Danny Roddy has also argued against starches pretty convincingly, based on the fact that they raise serotonin.

I haven't eaten a single starchy food in months, and I've never felt better! Never going back to starch given there are so many other tasty foods available.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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I have been staying starch free most days too, and I don't get hungry or have any cravings on those days.
 

Apollo

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I have been staying starch free most days too, and I don't get hungry or have any cravings on those days.
Not even "safe starches" like rice /potato ?
If not rice /potato you must be binging on milk or fat which have their own drawbacks. Massai usually show artery hardening but we have to keep in mind they move a lot and it is protective, inuits /eskimos don't live long on their meat diet too...
While most known centenrians do consume starches , including beans,corn and even wheat flour products.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Not even "safe starches" like rice /potato ?
If not rice /potato you must be binging on milk or fat which have their own drawbacks. Massai usually show artery hardening but we have to keep in mind they move a lot and it is protective, inuits /eskimos don't live long on their meat diet too...
While most known centenrians do consume starches , including beans,corn and even wheat flour products.
Eskimos aren't unhealthy from meat, but from PUFA's in salmon and no natural vitamin D.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Eskimos aren't unhealthy from meat, but from PUFA's in salmon and no natural vitamin D.
Not even "safe starches" like rice /potato ?
If not rice /potato you must be binging on milk or fat which have their own drawbacks. Massai usually show artery hardening but we have to keep in mind they move a lot and it is protective, inuits /eskimos don't live long on their meat diet too...
While most known centenrians do consume starches , including beans,corn and even wheat flour products.
Being a centenarian does equal good health. My ex-mother-in-law is 96 and looks great, but is hoping for death to come soon because she feels so rotten with grotesquely swollen ankles, maddening rashes and strange growths. She says is tired of all the pasta meals they keep getting from the meal delivery services intended for the elderly. She is happy when I bring her care packages of short ribs, meatloaf and such. I think you would be hard pressed to find a centarian that would choose starches over meat.
 

tankasnowgod

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There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

I read "Wheat Belly" too, and for ALLLLLLLL the things he analyzes in that book, he COMPLETELY neglects the issue of iron fortification. And that's one of the easiest to find, seeing as it's listed right on the ingredients. He never thought "Huh, I wonder if tiny iron shavings could cause some of these issues." Insanity.

You can even extract it from food using common household items-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHqN-Be5nlU


To be honest, I don't think starch itself is all that delicious. Although its part of a lot of delicious foods. Pizza is great, but if you remove the cheese, peperoni, sauce and other toppings.......... meh, it's just bread.

French Fries are delicious, but that's still potatoes with a lot of fat.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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I read "Wheat Belly" too, and for ALLLLLLLL the things he analyzes in that book, he COMPLETELY neglects the issue of iron fortification. And that's one of the easiest to find, seeing as it's listed right on the ingredients. He never thought "Huh, I wonder if tiny iron shavings could cause some of these issues." Insanity.

You can even extract it from food using common household items-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHqN-Be5nlU


To be honest, I don't think starch itself is all that delicious. Although its part of a lot of delicious foods. Pizza is great, but if you remove the cheese, peperoni, sauce and other toppings.......... meh, it's just bread.

French Fries are delicious, but that's still potatoes with a lot of fat.
I doubt when Ray Peat and Dr. Davis talk about starches being unhealthy they are referring to the iron, that is a whole other topic, and is more debatable. I agree with you that starch is really just a flavorless backdrop for butter and other fatty goodness to shine 😋
 

tankasnowgod

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I doubt when Ray Peat and Dr. Davis talk about starches being unhealthy they are referring to the iron, that is a whole other topic, and is more debatable. I agree with you that starch is really just a flavorless backdrop for butter and other fatty goodness to shine 😋

I was specifically talking about Dr. Davis, and all the potential issues he brings up in Wheat Belly. He mentions ALLLL sorts of issues with wheat, and even mentions that modern dwarf wheat contain more issues than traditional strains. He even mentions how celiac has been on the rise in the 40s............................. when Iron Fortification was started. Again, how did he not think about Iron Fortification? Was reading the ingredients label too much hard research?

Dr. Levy, for example, picked up on this idea-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjmwTwNCAI
 

Apollo

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she is 96 and i guess she is having pasta meals daily... it only proves that pasta is not so bad after all.
yes, it can be blind and tasteless ....but there is nothing wrong with pasta. Meat in excess on the other hang will only speed up aging (needs to be balanced with gelatine)
I'm not against meat...just it has its own drawbacks, not to mention quality of meat and it combines bad with starches in some cases
 

gaze

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volkheimers research was on raw and dry cooked starch. either that or if it's soaked or nixtimalized before hand when starch is boiled in water it doesn't get persorbed. Ray said in his own experiments with nixtamalized corn, no starch showed up in the urine.

also starch has a lot goin for it: you don't have to worry about it not being ripe like fruit, it's economical, it's easy to salt, it's easier to make meals with, it's more filling based on volume, the insulin can be anabolic in the right context, it makes it easier to eat with friends, it makes it easier to travel, it tastes good, its easier to eat a lot of in one sitting when compared with OJ or Milk. it is difficult to get 4-500grams of carbs without starch which many athletes and hardworking people need.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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I was specifically talking about Dr. Davis, and all the potential issues he brings up in Wheat Belly. He mentions ALLLL sorts of issues with wheat, and even mentions that modern dwarf wheat contain more issues than traditional strains. He even mentions how celiac has been on the rise in the 40s............................. when Iron Fortification was started. Again, how did he not think about Iron Fortification? Was reading the ingredients label too much hard research?

Dr. Levy, for example, picked up on this idea-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjmwTwNCAI
Regardless if Dr. Davis mentions iron problems, it is not the reason why starches are bad. Dr. David talks about ALL starches being bad, and are not fortified. He says they are harmful for the same reasons as Ray Peat.
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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she is 96 and i guess she is having pasta meals daily... it only proves that pasta is not so bad after all.
yes, it can be blind and tasteless ....but there is nothing wrong with pasta. Meat in excess on the other hang will only speed up aging (needs to be balanced with gelatine)
I'm not against meat...just it has its own drawbacks, not to mention quality of meat and it combines bad with starches in some cases
So you are disagreeing with Ray Peat's quote at the beginning of my post?
 

tankasnowgod

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Regardless Dr. Davis mentions iron problems, it is not the reason why starches are bad. Dr. David talks about ALL starches being bad, and are not fortified. He says they are harmful for the same reasons as Ray Peat.

Strawman. Davis does promote a low carb diet (unlike Ray Peat), but he always mentioned wheat being PARTICULARLY bad. His book is called "Wheat Belly," not "Carb Belly" or "Starch Belly." You should understand this, simply from the title of his book.

Iron fortification is a program that only affects wheat and rice. It's affect on rice is even debatable, as it can be easily washed off before preparation. So, iron fortification is something that pretty much only affects wheat and wheat products (or like, 99%).

Things like bread, pasta, cereals. The EXACT foods that Davis singles out in his book. Not corn, not potatoes, not French Fries, not soda, not fruit.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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volkheimers research was on raw and dry cooked starch. either that or if it's soaked or nixtimalized before hand when starch is boiled in water it doesn't get persorbed. Ray said in his own experiments with nixtamalized corn, no starch showed up in the urine.

also starch has a lot goin for it: you don't have to worry about it not being ripe like fruit, it's economical, it's easy to salt, it's easier to make meals with, it's more filling based on volume, the insulin can be anabolic in the right context, it makes it easier to eat with friends, it makes it easier to travel, it tastes good, its easier to eat a lot of in one sitting when compared with OJ or Milk. it is difficult to get 4-500grams of carbs without starch which many athletes and hardworking people need.
My dad thinks starch is great too and keeps shoveling it in and can't remember ever what he did 5 minutes ago. Ray Peat never says starch is good, just that some are more safe than others. I agree it is delicious, hence my title, and certainly is convenient and has more staying power than fruit. It fits the saying "Sin is immediate gratification with long term consequences", just swap sin for grains and you get the idea :)
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Strawman. Davis does promote a low carb diet (unlike Ray Peat), but he always mentioned wheat being PARTICULARLY bad. His book is called "Wheat Belly," not "Carb Belly" or "Starch Belly." You should understand this, simply from the title of his book.

Iron fortification is a program that only affects wheat and rice. It's affect on rice is even debatable, as it can be easily washed off before preparation. So, iron fortification is something that pretty much only affects wheat and wheat products (or like, 99%).

Things like bread, pasta, cereals. The EXACT foods that Davis singles out in his book. Not corn, not potatoes, not French Fries, not soda, not fruit.
Nope he doesn't mention that because his book is entitled "WHEAT belly", but Ray Peat sure mentions those things and say they are not optimal.
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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Strawman. Davis does promote a low carb diet (unlike Ray Peat), but he always mentioned wheat being PARTICULARLY bad. His book is called "Wheat Belly," not "Carb Belly" or "Starch Belly." You should understand this, simply from the title of his book.

Iron fortification is a program that only affects wheat and rice. It's affect on rice is even debatable, as it can be easily washed off before preparation. So, iron fortification is something that pretty much only affects wheat and wheat products (or like, 99%).

Things like bread, pasta, cereals. The EXACT foods that Davis singles out in his book. Not corn, not potatoes, not French Fries, not soda, not fruit.
I am a Ray Peater NOT a Dr. Daviser. I mention Dr. Davis because he is a top cardiologist, who knows what he is talking about which happens to be in line with what Ray Peat says about starches. For the sake of your argument take Dr Davis out of the equasion and argue with just Ray Peat.
 

tankasnowgod

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Nope he doesn't mention that cause book is entitled "WHEAT belly",

I know. That's the point I've been trying to get across to you........... why doesn't Davis mention Iron Fortification of wheat, a program that happened ONLY to wheat and rice, at the exact time he determines wheat to start becoming more problematic to humans? Not iron in general, but the tiny iron shavings SPECIFICALLY added to wheat products?

Chapter 2 is even titled "Not your Grandma's Muffins- The Creation of Modern Wheat." It seems like a massive oversight by Davis.
 

Apollo

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So you are disagreeing with Ray Peat's quote at the beginning of my post?
I wish it was so easy. Just select proteins or fats, discard starches and the problem is solved.
I'm rather trying to find a balance.
Ray Peat speaks well of potato, masa harina, oats and he is having humus once in while.
I'm sure if you take away from your ex-mother-in-law pasta and cookies she'll be begging to bring them back in a couple of days
 
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