Dietitians Are Taught to Promote a Certain Amount of Starch in the Diet

[narouz]

After reading Weston Price's book, I decided to give up starch completely. Iv found that if I give my body unlimited supply of whole fat dairy products that I have absolutely no craving for starch. Also I don't have the same starch hangover feeling that I used to get without them. Most interesting of all is that I havnt gained any fat even though my total fat intake has skyrocketed. I did find starch to be very useful initially to lose fat and bring up metabolism but switching it out for full fat dairy has been the best change to date. This has only been a few weeks now but the positives include a gain in lbm which I needed from such weight loss, much better digestion with zero gas or full intestine feeling, no more energy crashes or mood changes which I would get if I ate a weird combination of starch with fruit or dairy and my skin is free of any blemishes.

This is very interesting.
Please keep us updated. :)

 

[YuraCZ]

I am sorry for my bad English..
and "good proteins" I mean full amino spectrum.. :bigreddoublebirdie

http://raypeat.com/articles/

So what? I read all articles on his page.. Can you speak/write normally with me pls? What is so evil on the turkey breast? Under 200 mg of PUFA for 100g of boiled skinless breast? Or bad calcium/phosphorus ratio which I can easily improve with eggshell? Or I'm supposed to continue blindly follow his dietary recommendations even if I feel like a ***t just because milk is "the perfect" food on the paper..?

 

[Brian]

So what? I read all articles on his page.. Can you speak/write normally with me pls? What is so evil on the turkey breast? Under 200 mg of PUFA for 100g of boiled skinless breast? Or bad calcium/phosphorus ratio which I can easily improve with eggshell? Or I'm supposed to continue blindly follow his dietary recommendations even if I feel like a s*** just because milk is "the perfect" food on the paper..?

I got your back on this one YuraCZ. Muscle meats aren't too shabby in amino acid ratios, especially if you are doing some muscle training. They usually have lower tryptophan than an equivalent in milk. Add some calcium carbonate and maybe some gelatin/glycine and it is probably at least as good in terms of ease of digestibility and certainly in the types of dishes you can make with it. Personally I stick mostly to beef, because it is easier to find free range and I like the higher zinc. Ground beef is even high in glycine, because it includes ground connective tissue.

I'm also a fan of starch for many mostly practical reasons and find that I can easily manage bacteria growth by simply having a carrot salad after or in between a meal.

 

[YuraCZ]

So what? I read all articles on his page.. Can you speak/write normally with me pls? What is so evil on the turkey breast? Under 200 mg of PUFA for 100g of boiled skinless breast? Or bad calcium/phosphorus ratio which I can easily improve with eggshell? Or I'm supposed to continue blindly follow his dietary recommendations even if I feel like a s*** just because milk is "the perfect" food on the paper..?

I got your back on this one YuraCZ. Muscle meats aren't too shabby in amino acid ratios, especially if you are doing some muscle training. They usually have lower tryptophan than an equivalent in milk. Add some calcium carbonate and maybe some gelatin/glycine and it is probably at least as good in terms of ease of digestibility and certainly in the types of dishes you can make with it. Personally I stick mostly to beef, because it is easier to find free range and I like the higher zinc. Ground beef is even high in glycine, because it includes ground connective tissue.

I'm also a fan of starch for many mostly practical reasons and find that I can easily manage bacteria growth by simply having a carrot salad after or in between a meal.

Yes with lean meat always collagen and I don't eat more than 200g per a day. But years back I had no problems with 1kg of meat per day. For me weather is crucial in this. I can't drink all my calories when it's cold outside and I'm hypothyroid.. But in the summer when temp is rising. I have no problem with less solid meals and more liquids..

 

[EIRE24]

In my experience
the shift to a starchless diet was quite a challenge.
A big part of the challenge had to do with habit and with a very ingrained experience of satiety and ritual.

Eating a Meal, and more intensely Sharing a Meal, is a big ritual for most people (let's say in USA).
When one switches to a starch-free diet
the result for me
was more or less a disconnection from the familiar pattern of meals and shared meals.

This was because I found I needed to go to eating a lot of little snack-type feedings.
As I've joked before,
hard to get most of your friends all excited to come over
and chow down on some orange juice and cottage cheese.

Now, you can try to get around this by centering meals--
in the familiar sense--
around meats and/or seafood.
But imo this is not Peatian either--
more like Paleo or other low-carb variants.

Simply put, the switch to a low starch diet, for me,
necessitated a change in my experience of ritual, and shared ritual.
Even setting aside the "shared" aspect,
even just by myself,
when I would come home after work,
it was hard for me to reinvent my way around the need to experience that Time
as a time for a Meal.
Not a time for just a mango and some cheese (say).

So that's the "ritual" aspect.

Then there is the chemical and body experience aspect:
what we're accustomed to experiencing as satiating.
Think baked potato w/ butter or large amounts of rice or fill in the blank with some kind of starch.
Or think big piles of pasta.
Or think big steaks or lots of shrimp and fish or whatever--the Paleo or low-carb experience.
The belly feels full.
The mouth does some chewing.
And the meal Takes Some Time, simply.
Other, non-Peatians, would be more likely to want to join you.
If you drink some OJ and eat a few pieces of cheese, say,
that hardly requires you to even sit down.
That goes more back to the experience of ritual: it Involves Some Passage of Time.

This is a big part of why I've always argued that switching to a truly optimal Peat diet
will be a very challenging thing for most people.
It is not the ultimately delicious,
varied, sensual, intuitive, natural, easy progression often constructed in these parts at all, imo.

And when you think about it,
Peat never really advertises it as such.
Those glosses are our own additions, spins.

Nice post narouz. For me. When I started with Peat I tried incorporate all typical foods like 2L of milk 1L of OJ, no starch etc.. But after a month I realize that this is not for me. I do better with more complex carbs and with some meat. I just need solid meals instead of just too much fluids and I love cheese or dried fruits, but I can't tolerate these due to histamine intolerance. So for me white rice with turkey breasts or liver or eggs or some collagen, cod or whatever. Simply low PUFA and good proteins/nutrients at the same time. This 3 times a day + carrot salad and coffee with sugar, milk and glycine between meals. And of course all important things like vit k2, aspirin, vit E, B complex, selenium, zinc, low PUFA, coconut oil, activated charcoal, progesterone..

Yes Yura, I do much better with starch in my diet too, without it I broke out in acne and my eyebrows began to thin. Ever since bringing white rice and potatoes back into my diet with more meat instead of milk I feel so much better. Everyone is different and you need to find what works for you. I don't think some people get that on here.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I am sorry for my bad English..
and "good proteins" I mean full amino spectrum.. :bigreddoublebirdie

http://raypeat.com/articles/

So what? I read all articles on his page.. Can you speak/write normally with me pls? What is so evil on the turkey breast? Under 200 mg of PUFA for 100g of boiled skinless breast? Or bad calcium/phosphorus ratio which I can easily improve with eggshell? Or I'm supposed to continue blindly follow his dietary recommendations even if I feel like a s*** just because milk is "the perfect" food on the paper..?

Hmm, good call! Turkey seems to have nice ratios

 

[narouz]

In my experience
the shift to a starchless diet was quite a challenge.
A big part of the challenge had to do with habit and with a very ingrained experience of satiety and ritual.

Eating a Meal, and more intensely Sharing a Meal, is a big ritual for most people (let's say in USA).
When one switches to a starch-free diet
the result for me
was more or less a disconnection from the familiar pattern of meals and shared meals.

This was because I found I needed to go to eating a lot of little snack-type feedings.
As I've joked before,
hard to get most of your friends all excited to come over
and chow down on some orange juice and cottage cheese.

Now, you can try to get around this by centering meals--
in the familiar sense--
around meats and/or seafood.
But imo this is not Peatian either--
more like Paleo or other low-carb variants.

Simply put, the switch to a low starch diet, for me,
necessitated a change in my experience of ritual, and shared ritual.
Even setting aside the "shared" aspect,
even just by myself,
when I would come home after work,
it was hard for me to reinvent my way around the need to experience that Time
as a time for a Meal.
Not a time for just a mango and some cheese (say).

So that's the "ritual" aspect.

Then there is the chemical and body experience aspect:
what we're accustomed to experiencing as satiating.
Think baked potato w/ butter or large amounts of rice or fill in the blank with some kind of starch.
Or think big piles of pasta.
Or think big steaks or lots of shrimp and fish or whatever--the Paleo or low-carb experience.
The belly feels full.
The mouth does some chewing.
And the meal Takes Some Time, simply.
Other, non-Peatians, would be more likely to want to join you.
If you drink some OJ and eat a few pieces of cheese, say,
that hardly requires you to even sit down.
That goes more back to the experience of ritual: it Involves Some Passage of Time.

This is a big part of why I've always argued that switching to a truly optimal Peat diet
will be a very challenging thing for most people.
It is not the ultimately delicious,
varied, sensual, intuitive, natural, easy progression often constructed in these parts at all, imo.

And when you think about it,
Peat never really advertises it as such.
Those glosses are our own additions, spins.

Nice post narouz. For me. When I started with Peat I tried incorporate all typical foods like 2L of milk 1L of OJ, no starch etc.. But after a month I realize that this is not for me. I do better with more complex carbs and with some meat. I just need solid meals instead of just too much fluids and I love cheese or dried fruits, but I can't tolerate these due to histamine intolerance. So for me white rice with turkey breasts or liver or eggs or some collagen, cod or whatever. Simply low PUFA and good proteins/nutrients at the same time. This 3 times a day + carrot salad and coffee with sugar, milk and glycine between meals. And of course all important things like vit k2, aspirin, vit E, B complex, selenium, zinc, low PUFA, coconut oil, activated charcoal, progesterone..

Yes Yura, I do much better with starch in my diet too, without it I broke out in acne and my eyebrows began to thin. Ever since bringing white rice and potatoes back into my diet with more meat instead of milk I feel so much better. Everyone is different and you need to find what works for you. I don't think some people get that on here.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from on this, EIRE...

An optimal Peat diet can be pretty well defined in general terms
and would not include a lot of muscle meat and starch eating.
Because you and Yura do better with high muscle meat and starch portions in your diets,
this does not mean that you have discovered new Ray Peat diets.
It simply means that some aspects of an optimal Peat diet
do not work for you guys.

There is nothing the least bit pejorative in that observation.
And having this kind of clarity about what an optimal Peat diet is
is really the only way we'll ever sort out how it works for people in real life experience.

It is a bit like the old saying,
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,
but not their own facts.

 

[YuraCZ]

200 g of turkey breast per day is a high muscle meat diet?

 

[narouz]

200 g of turkey breast per day is a high muscle meat diet?

Well, by optimal Peat standards, yes, I would have to think it is.
There's the PUFA angle to consider
along with the amino balance
and the calcium:phosphate ratio.
I confess I haven't made a study of turkey breasts....

 

[Tom]

Just like to mention that starches in the form of grains and starches in the form of potatoes and tubers may work very differently and have very different effect on the microbiota. There´s the theory of the acellular (grains, beans, nuts, sucrose) vs cellular carbs (fruits, potatoes, tubers), which I think makes some sense. If I avoid all grains but not potatoes for a couple of days or a week my digestive problems usually disappears. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402009/

Of course there´s things like "the specific carbohydrate diet" and the GAPS diet which claims that it is starches or even disaccharides (like sucrose or lactose) that is the problem. Yet, almost 100 years ago it was shown that a banana diet could cure celiac disease. And this later went into the development of "the specific carbohydrate diet". However today we know that bananas actually provide a fair amount of starch, and this kind questions this whole hypothesis. http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article ... id=1174032

It also appears that these traditional people that eat a lot of grains, like white rice for example, do so in conjunction with a lot of anti-microbial stuff, often type of roots that could be a bit like the raw carrot or bamboo shoot in the antimicrobial effect, be it turmeric, ginger, garlic, oregano, and sometimes fermented foods like natto and miso in Japan, or yogurt/kefir/sauerkraut in Europe.

 

[pboy]

that's like the breasts of a whole turkey each day!

to most people eating a standard diet, no that's no big deal at all. To Peat its probably too much, though I think Peat says he eats 200g meat sometimes. To me its a lot just cause I see it as unnecessary and you could run imbalances, and or have nasty post digestion. I maintain my mass and never am sore more than like..half a day, even when im working and lifting a lot of stuff...and I eat only like...45-65g protein a day. Theres no issues regarding that, I never go catabolic though which is the main thing. If I start peeing like tiny amounts and its yellow, that means ive hit cortisol and catabolic protein point...another sign is slighly less stable hands. the only time that happens to me now is rare occasions if i work past my lunch break but I quickly resolve it, or if I sleep for like 8+ hours, then right when I wake up

 

[YuraCZ]

that's like the breasts of a whole turkey each day!

to most people eating a standard diet, no that's no big deal at all. To Peat its probably too much, though I think Peat says he eats 200g meat sometimes. To me its a lot just cause I see it as unnecessary and you could run imbalances, and or have nasty post digestion. I maintain my mass and never am sore more than like..half a day, even when im working and lifting a lot of stuff...and I eat only like...45-65g protein a day. Theres no issues regarding that, I never go catabolic though which is the main thing. If I start peeing like tiny amounts and its yellow, that means ive hit cortisol and catabolic protein point...another sign is slighly less stable hands. the only time that happens to me now is rare occasions if i work past my lunch break but I quickly resolve it, or if I sleep for like 8+ hours, then right when I wake up

What? whole turkey breast has at least 1 kg.

 

[YuraCZ]

200 g of turkey breast per day is a high muscle meat diet?

Well, by optimal Peat standards, yes, I would have to think it is.
There's the PUFA angle to consider
along with the amino balance
and the calcium:phosphate ratio.
I confess I haven't made a study of turkey breasts....

130mg of PUFA per 100g of breast. INSANE AMOUNT

 

[Zachs]

Ok, we are getting off topic with the turkey beast thing. Adding meat into the diet is fine but RP is anti turkey so... Anywho..

Pboy your brought up another interesting point about children and eating the way we currently eat. I have 5 year old son and he absolutely hates sitting down for a meal except for breakfast which is usually egg, dairy and fruit based in our house but sometimes he will go high starch. Of course I don't limit his food choices and I let him choose for the most part but I don't allow excess pufa foods like chips. Anyway for others meals he can just never sit still, especially dinner. Usually he won't be hungry because during the day he snacks on cheese, fruit, pretzals, whatever and usually he will be hungry again right before bed. This my used to frustrate us because sitting down for dinner is such a ritual. Lately though we have been eating only a few real dinners a week, most of the time we will just serve him up a plate and let him do play bites where he will come, take a bite and then play. Otherwise I just get him a snack while we eat or we will all just fend for ourselves. It is a lot less stressful and a lot less cleanup!

As for my own experiment, my digestion and energy just keeps getting better on a high sat fat, no starch diet. I only poop once a day now, instead of 2-3 on my high starch/fruit diet ND there is no real urgency like there was before. now I always wake up, drink a bit of juice and coffee and smoke a little tobacco and after that my digestive tract has started it's day. No more full feeling or urgency. My energy has been insanely better, very even keel instead of ups or downs. One thing that's different is I can tolerate coffee where as in the past it would make me sleepy. Also I have been eating more meat without any issues which brings me to believe my old issues with meat was actually probably starch and the wrong kinds of meat. Lastly I'm becoming more vascular, not sure what the means but I'm ok with it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Hear hear

 

[narouz]

Ok, we are getting off topic with the turkey beast thing.

Yeah maybe, but...they're popping up everywhere these days...I for one am frightened!

 

[Zachs]

Also bird flu is bacoming an epidemic among feedlot fowl. I'd steer clear of it.

 

[EIRE24]

In my experience
the shift to a starchless diet was quite a challenge.
A big part of the challenge had to do with habit and with a very ingrained experience of satiety and ritual.

Eating a Meal, and more intensely Sharing a Meal, is a big ritual for most people (let's say in USA).
When one switches to a starch-free diet
the result for me
was more or less a disconnection from the familiar pattern of meals and shared meals.

This was because I found I needed to go to eating a lot of little snack-type feedings.
As I've joked before,
hard to get most of your friends all excited to come over
and chow down on some orange juice and cottage cheese.

Now, you can try to get around this by centering meals--
in the familiar sense--
around meats and/or seafood.
But imo this is not Peatian either--
more like Paleo or other low-carb variants.

Simply put, the switch to a low starch diet, for me,
necessitated a change in my experience of ritual, and shared ritual.
Even setting aside the "shared" aspect,
even just by myself,
when I would come home after work,
it was hard for me to reinvent my way around the need to experience that Time
as a time for a Meal.
Not a time for just a mango and some cheese (say).

So that's the "ritual" aspect.

Then there is the chemical and body experience aspect:
what we're accustomed to experiencing as satiating.
Think baked potato w/ butter or large amounts of rice or fill in the blank with some kind of starch.
Or think big piles of pasta.
Or think big steaks or lots of shrimp and fish or whatever--the Paleo or low-carb experience.
The belly feels full.
The mouth does some chewing.
And the meal Takes Some Time, simply.
Other, non-Peatians, would be more likely to want to join you.
If you drink some OJ and eat a few pieces of cheese, say,
that hardly requires you to even sit down.
That goes more back to the experience of ritual: it Involves Some Passage of Time.

This is a big part of why I've always argued that switching to a truly optimal Peat diet
will be a very challenging thing for most people.
It is not the ultimately delicious,
varied, sensual, intuitive, natural, easy progression often constructed in these parts at all, imo.

And when you think about it,
Peat never really advertises it as such.
Those glosses are our own additions, spins.

Nice post narouz. For me. When I started with Peat I tried incorporate all typical foods like 2L of milk 1L of OJ, no starch etc.. But after a month I realize that this is not for me. I do better with more complex carbs and with some meat. I just need solid meals instead of just too much fluids and I love cheese or dried fruits, but I can't tolerate these due to histamine intolerance. So for me white rice with turkey breasts or liver or eggs or some collagen, cod or whatever. Simply low PUFA and good proteins/nutrients at the same time. This 3 times a day + carrot salad and coffee with sugar, milk and glycine between meals. And of course all important things like vit k2, aspirin, vit E, B complex, selenium, zinc, low PUFA, coconut oil, activated charcoal, progesterone..

Yes Yura, I do much better with starch in my diet too, without it I broke out in acne and my eyebrows began to thin. Ever since bringing white rice and potatoes back into my diet with more meat instead of milk I feel so much better. Everyone is different and you need to find what works for you. I don't think some people get that on here.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from on this, EIRE...

An optimal Peat diet can be pretty well defined in general terms
and would not include a lot of muscle meat and starch eating.
Because you and Yura do better with high muscle meat and starch portions in your diets,
this does not mean that you have discovered new Ray Peat diets.
It simply means that some aspects of an optimal Peat diet
do not work for you guys.

There is nothing the least bit pejorative in that observation.
And having this kind of clarity about what an optimal Peat diet is
is really the only way we'll ever sort out how it works for people in real life experience.

It is a bit like the old saying,
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,
but not their own facts.

Narouz,

I wasn't trying to implement anything as optimal or not optimal I just said that its best to find what works for you. Simple as that. I don't do the whole arguing thing anymore, it only raises stress hormones and that's definitely not optimal on a "peat diet"

 

[YuraCZ]

The point is that the turkey breast is literally no fat. Under 150 mg of PUFA per 100g which is one meal for me. This is important for me. It is a good source of protein and calcium/phosphorus ratio is easily corrected by eggshell powder..

 

[narouz]

Narouz,

I wasn't trying to implement anything as optimal or not optimal I just said that its best to find what works for you. Simple as that. I don't do the whole arguing thing anymore, it only raises stress hormones and that's definitely not optimal on a "peat diet"

I do agree that you should find what works best for you.
Whether that is Peat-recommended or not--
it's nothing that needs to be argued about or stressed about.

If, for example, you find that a diet of all avocados works great for you, that's a great discovery.
It will not change the fact that avocados are not recommended by Peat.
This should not be a cause for argument or stress, in my opinion.

I would just add this thought:
Personally, I am glad that Peat recommends certain foods for health.
That is, that he recommends a healthy diet.
I'm glad, because it is a starting point.
If he didn't make any food recommendations,
and I had to try each food personally, in a scientific way,
to evaluate from experience how each food worked for me
(to say nothing of the complexities, like how various foods might work together)...

...well, that would be a whole lot of experimenting and time and effort
and I'm not at all sure I'm up to pulling that off!