Thoughts On Starch Perspective

pboy

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I just want to see if anyone agrees. Ive self expirimented with about every food available, cooking in various ways, combos ect and only recently I came upon Ray Peat info and feel it has a lot of validity....here's my perspective
on starches and I believe this is why Ray says what he says, as well as why Americans in general have gluten and/or
starch problems.

Sucrose is not altered until it gets into the small intestine, where it is only one step away from being absorbed.
Starch must be broken down, beginning in the mouth (salivary amalayse), potentially in the stomach some more, then
finished off in the small intestine.

Imagine sugar as each molecule is a person with a bubble of water around them, where as starch is like a line of people close together with only bubbles of water on each end of the long line. When you consume sucrose or sugar, even if you dont chew it well (or at all) and dont mix it with water, it still easily gets digested because digestive enzymes can access each molecule through the water bubble surroundin it. Starch, if not entirely masticated, cannot be digested fully because the water and digestive enzymes can only break down one person on the end of the line at a time, where as with sugar they can access each person at once. Furthermore, starch is less soluble in water so if the GI tract is not well hydrated and/or the food was too dry when swallowed, it can become gummy as it goes through the system where as sugar will not. So basically...to fully digest starches well, you have to take small bites, the starch has to be fully cooked and eaten warm before it recrystallizes (becomes resistant starch), and you must actually fully chew and emulsify with saliva each bite before you swallow. Almost no one does this, not even close...hence I would say on average half the starches people eat dont get digested, end up in the colon as functional fiber, cause gas and microbe overgrowth...hence 'gluten' intolerance, ect ect. Gluten grains are way chewier than other grains so obviously chewing them fully takes more time and attention than other grains and therefore probably why they get a worse name, but corn and rice could potentially do the same thing. The way potatoes are generally prepared and how they have the water natrually intact makes them generally way easier to take in and chew fast. The skins on whole grains/legumes/ ect are astringent in the mouth and soak up water so it takes a lot longer to chew these fully and most people dont which is why masa harina and white rice are preferred...much more likely to actually be digested. So ultimately, no starch is 'bad', just more or less difficult to consume without leaving any residues...and compared to fruit/fruit juice or sweetened coffee/tea they are just a pain to prepare, eat, ect and arent actually necessary. I believe they are like a backup food, but if you chew them fully and let the saliva mix before you swallow, they wont present problems...besides taking time to cook and chew. Using ground flour, or mashing the potatoes (basically prechewing somehow), makes eating starches way easier and more efficient, but you still should fully mix saliva when it comes to starches.

Please comment!
 

gretchen

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Macrobiotic people say the same thing; well, sort of.

I thought resistant starch was good. I used to boil sweet potatoes an hour then fridge them.
 

Jenn

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I absolutely agree. Starches sweeten in the mouth as you chew them because you are converting the starch into glucose. You have to chew to the point of liquid. Noodles are the hardest for me to take the time to chew sufficiently. They are innately slippery and go down too easily still intact.
 

Dutchie

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Yesterday I saw this Dutch docu tvseries which investigates food quality,origin of certain things etc. Anyway yesterday it was about the habit why most people eat/want dessert after dinner.

Turned out 'dessert' is something which originated from the 19th century when people used to eat heavy starchy meaty dinners.In order to digest those meals well they ate something sweet after. It made me immediately think of the fact why I for a while,when I started messing around with the Peat Eat4Heat thing, had these kicks for Spelt cake and Rice porridge. Amongst some other things both have starch&sugar combined.
So,your observations is true regarding starch&digestion and apart from chewing thoroughly I also think it's best to add some kind of sugarsource to it or you need fermentation processes to pre-digest the starch..... but that's another subject and 'scene' ;)

However I think in regards to nutrition&starch all grains have very little to nothing to offer compared to fruit and certain natural sugar sources. The Potato being an exception which has quite some nutritional value. So,I think the potato can be seen as a middle ground between sugar&starch.
I can't imagine homemade fries with sugar tasting great.....but fries with homemade ketchup migth be nice.
 
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Ray talks about his first dissection in school seeing how quickly starch disappeared in a rats stomach after consumption. Also persorption causing starch particles to infiltrate the body including cns. And how eating with fats helps diminish persorption of starch.
 
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Sorry to long time members who've read my posts about this topic this year but everytime there's a new person who comments on the subject, I just feel I have to give a more holistic point of view, simply for the sake of hearing all arguments so any future lurker can make their own decision.

ecstatichamster said:
post 112568 Ray talks about his first dissection in school seeing how quickly starch disappeared in a rats stomach after consumption. Also persorption causing starch particles to infiltrate the body including cns. And how eating with fats helps diminish persorption of starch.

Right but Peat has also acknowledged that a human can get away with eating high starch if they so wish, he just doesn't recommend it. He personally doesn't really eat starch except for the occasional lime treated corn (nixtamalization) when in Mexico and he enjoys the taste of small turnips though turnips have less starch then other roots:

"You've mentioned that you occasionally eat small turnips. Do they offer a hard to get nutrient?"

"It’s just that they taste good, and contain less starch, PUFA, and goitrogens than some vegetables." - RP

The point there is that he's not orthorexic about eating a little bit of it if he enjoys the taste of something that has it. The term "vegetables" is a very broad term. It makes no sense to put something like potatoes in the same category as eggplant. Potatoes are one of the few foods on Earth that have the most extreme low PUFA content and if "ripe," low allergenicity, no goitrogens, while things like eggplant contain very little energy and can be very allergenic.

I would argue that rats are not strachivores and they do not produce as much amylase as we do. Rat's can not cook starch. The human beings brain is the size of a few rats so it seems though they are mammals, in this context the glucose needing brain of a rat may be very different. When the human being evolved in the African congo, something happened where they became high starch animals which may explain this:

viewtopic.php?f=220&t=7445&p=95701#p95701

And if starch was so bad, I'm still waiting for someone to explain this:

viewtopic.php?f=250&t=5859&p=70715#p70715
 
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michael94

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Yup amylase is crucial and there's good reason to believe it tends to vary among populations ( and within, obviously )

http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstrac ... 122743.htm\

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/


 

DaveFoster

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I view starch in the context of nutrition in the same way as melatonin in the context of sleep.

Will melatonin help you fall asleep? Yes. Will it do so without harmful effects on the body? No.

Will starch supply you with nutrients and calories? Yes. Will it do so without harmful metabolic effects? No.

And of course, potatoes are the most viable option for starch; far superior to rice, sweet potatoes, and certainly corn or wheat. However, uncooked potatoes are hard to digest and often toxic, so why would you eat them rather than delicious cheese or milk?
 

Brian

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Refined starch can be the right tool for the job if you are recovering from under eating, low carb, or something equally dumb like raw veganism.

It has the unique property of being quickly broken down into glucose and having minimal water content, while tasting great with salt (something a hypothyroid person needs a lot of). Also needing no processing by the liver.

Fructose may be too stimulating to the cell for someone who is currently hypothyroid and therefore also magnesium and sodium/potassium deficient. They likely also have calcium in their cells. Under these circumstances I think fructose is not the right fuel at the moment as a main fuel. The liver is often blamed for poor fructose metabolism, but I wonder if it isn't more often just electrolyte imbalance in the cell.

You don't have to use refined starch forever, but I think in many instances it is a better "recovery fuel" than fructose or excessive fats. Once the basic metabolism and cellular electrolyte balance has been restored then a person can try out using more fructose and fluid. This has been my experience at least.
 

YuraCZ

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DaveFoster said:
post 112580 I view starch in the context of nutrition in the same way as melatonin in the context of sleep.

Will melatonin help you fall asleep? Yes. Will it do so without harmful effects on the body? No.

Will starch supply you with nutrients and calories? Yes. Will it do so without harmful metabolic effects? No.

And of course, potatoes are the most viable option for starch; far superior to rice, sweet potatoes, and certainly corn or wheat. However, uncooked potatoes are hard to digest and often toxic, so why would you eat them rather than delicious cheese or milk?
I don't think so. I think sweet potatoes are the best. Here in CZ they are too expensive, but if I had those money. I would definitely eat mainly sweet potatoes. They have more micronutrients, they have much better calcium/phosphorus ratio and they aren't nightshades.
 
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DaveFoster

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YuraCZ said:
I would definitely eat mainly sweet potatoes. They have more micronutrients, they have much better calcium/phosphorus ratio and they aren't nightshades.
They also have an unrivaled concentration of beta carotene; something that suppresses the thyroid according to Mr. Peat.
 

tara

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DaveFoster said:
post 112580 However, uncooked potatoes are hard to digest and often toxic, so why would you eat them rather than delicious cheese or milk?
Intolerance? I wouldn't dream of eating raw potatoes, but cooked ones seem to be easier to digest and to serve me better than millk or cheese. I love milk and cheese, and I've given milk at least a good go over the last couple of years, but they don't (currently) love me.

DaveFoster said:
post 112600 They also have an unrivaled concentration of beta carotene; something that suppresses the thyroid according to Mr. Peat.
I got averse to them when I was pregnant, and now that I've regained my taste for them, I still only want a little every week or two. But maybe someone in good health with good B12 levels can handle them fine?
 
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YuraCZ

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DaveFoster said:
post 112600
YuraCZ said:
I would definitely eat mainly sweet potatoes. They have more micronutrients, they have much better calcium/phosphorus ratio and they aren't nightshades.
They also have an unrivaled concentration of beta carotene; something that suppresses the thyroid according to Mr. Peat.
Where Dr.Peat says that beta carotene can directly suppress thyroid? Only problem with beta carotene is that beta carotene is not vitamin A but pro vitamin A, so it must be converted in the body to vitamin A. So it is like telling T4 is bad, because it must be converted to active form T3... Beta carotene and those different colors in different types of vegetables also have some health benefits..
 
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James IV

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My thought is If a particular source of starch improves your health perameters, then eat it. Energy is the most important aspect of healing IMO, and starch happens to be a particularly dense source of energy.

I think your assertions on proper chewing and digesting are probably very valid. Especially with the way many of us are always rushing to wolf down food.

I think potatoes are probably king. But I also believe the nutritional value of prepared grains is actually good. I believe thier bad name is mostly from Internet propaganda, poorly contrived testing methods, and misinterpretation of data. (This may not fall in line with Dr Peats views.)
 

milk_lover

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There is no big harm if you see starch that you really like and eat it. Think of it as occasional food. If you want to make starch your main source of carb, it's up to you to gauge how you feel and if you're making improvements in your health. You're the ultimate judge on how much starch you can handle. WestsidePUFA is defending starch like it's super food or something. Don't listen to him, listen to your body what it is trying to tell you.
 

Owen B

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Sorry to long time members who've read my posts about this topic this year but everytime there's a new person who comments on the subject, I just feel I have to give a more holistic point of view, simply for the sake of hearing all arguments so any future lurker can make their own decision.



Right but Peat has also acknowledged that a human can get away with eating high starch if they so wish, he just doesn't recommend it. He personally doesn't really eat starch except for the occasional lime treated corn (nixtamalization) when in Mexico and he enjoys the taste of small turnips though turnips have less starch then other roots:

"You've mentioned that you occasionally eat small turnips. Do they offer a hard to get nutrient?"

"It’s just that they taste good, and contain less starch, PUFA, and goitrogens than some vegetables." - RP

The point there is that he's not orthorexic about eating a little bit of it if he enjoys the taste of something that has it. The term "vegetables" is a very broad term. It makes no sense to put something like potatoes in the same category as eggplant. Potatoes are one of the few foods on Earth that have the most extreme low PUFA content and if "ripe," low allergenicity, no goitrogens, while things like eggplant contain very little energy and can be very allergenic.

I would argue that rats are not strachivores and they do not produce as much amylase as we do. Rat's can not cook starch. The human beings brain is the size of a few rats so it seems though they are mammals, in this context the glucose needing brain of a rat may be very different. When the human being evolved in the African congo, something happened where they became high starch animals which may explain this:

viewtopic.php?f=220&t=7445&p=95701#p95701

And if starch was so bad, I'm still waiting for someone to explain this:

viewtopic.php?f=250&t=5859&p=70715#p70715
This was a very helpful post for me. A lot of very good information that helped me get over my long-standing bias for low-carbs.

The link to "McCarbthyism" was key. The sugar vs. starch debate "boils" down to the way the the starch is cooked. Wet gets taken up as glycogen; dry is fractionated by the heat and gets into circulation.

However, when I started switching over, I got hypoglycemic. I have very high stress and therefore my sugar is always going to be in danger of getting low. But I'm getting potatoes into almost every meal, cutting back on the vegs, adding a little brown rice. I'm going to try corn next. And I don't mind legumes as long as they're cooked thoroughly.

I haven't figured out the fat thing with this yet, so I'm continuing to take a nib of butter with the starch.

Ditto, for milk. I have to take a little evaporated skim with the butter.

As for McDougall, I checked out "The Starch Solution" and found it a good source of information. He hits a lot of good notes. He's very dubious about the medical establishment and I think it's great how he focuses on the food.

But, I noticed - from the pictures in his book - that his patients have lost a lot of weight but they don't look very healthy. They look a little weak. And I got one of his emails the other day and it had a picture of his wife delivering a talk. She looked like she was on her last legs: gaunt, almost cadaverous. Way too catabolic. They're missing something. Not getting enough energy, not enough healthy hormones I'd guess. But what exactly the food connection (or lack of it) is there I couldn't say.
 
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it had a picture of his wife delivering a talk. She looked like she was on her last legs: gaunt, almost cadaverous.

She's 70 years old. Give her a break. Making it to 70 is enough. My uncle is dying of lung cancer at the age of 49. 49 is to0 early. 70 is enough and she's still living well. She's not on depression meds or high blood pressure meds and is not fat. 70 is 20 more years than my uncle is going to have. There is a point that you hit around 65 where you become elderly anyway.

.
 

Owen B

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She's 70 years old. Give her a break. Making it to 70 is enough. My uncle is dying of lung cancer at the age of 49. 49 is to0 early. 70 is enough and she's still living well. She's not on depression meds or high blood pressure meds and is not fat. 70 is 20 more years than my uncle is going to have. There is a point that you hit around 65 where you become elderly anyway.

.
Don't have a cow, man. What, I'm attacking all old people now? One could look healthy and energetic at 70 too, not obviously deprived of the right kind of nutrients. And you didn't see the part where I complimented your posts and it's helpful outlook?

I thought about the post I sent you last night and while I think starches are important (and I'm trying to build them in to my diet) it seems that a strict starch diet - at least like McDougall's - is insufficient. 30-60 Gms of protein? That sounds pretty low.

The load modern life puts on one's energetic system is much greater than that put on those living in the kinds of societies eating predominantly a starch diet.

I'm adding starches but keeping eggs, milk and their added protein in as well. In addition to pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, thyroid etc.
 
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