Starch - The Delicious Devil

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue."
Ray Peat

I see and hear the "starch vs sugar" debate all the time on this forum, but after reading this quote from Ray Peat, what argument is there? Grains are proven to be one of several causes of Alzheimers. I know is true in my own father's case. It is called "grain brain". My father is a normal healthy person until he eats grains. After he eats a meal, with wheat particularly, he goes into a trance, where he won't talk much for several days and can't remember much of anything.

There is another book I read a few years back written by top cardiologist, Dr. Davis, and is titled "Wheat Belly". It not only makes a convincing case for why everyone is fat, but he also states that it is the number one reason for heart disease. This prompted me to go Paleo right away. Our modern wheat, he calls "Frankenwheat", because it is altered to a destructive monsterous state. It affects the opioid part of the brain, the same as drugs, causing a vicious cycle of unhealthy and unstoppable cravings. He goes so far as to say that our modern wheat is unsuitable for human consumption. From a "Peaty' perspective it is a book worth reading and will make those sweet little cupcakes look like frosted covered demons.

What happened to mankind that we have come so far from valuing food for how it strengthens us, like liver and heart, to choosing foods that we know are going to make us slow, ill and fat? I am not excluding myself from the latter. I justify a good bowl of pasta, by saying it is made with a better wheat from Italy and "look at all the protein I am getting". I know better, but yet I make the weaker choice too. I summize we make less optimal choices because nothing is really expected from our bodies anymore. Tribal hunters NEED to be strong and WANT to prove they are SUPERIOR. They need to be FAST and sustain ENERGY. Their eating optimally meant getting the next meal. Nowaday a meal is there without much effort. We can AFFORD to make LESS optimal choices because we TAKE our health for granted and value INDULGENCES more, never thinking of the COST. Look at the key words in the two different ways of eating.

In my youth when I saw a lot of life ahead of me I chose the "Live To Eat" stance, now that my youth is many years behind me I have changed my mind and now want to "Eat To Live". I just don't see the fun in ruining my health anymore.

I like this interview with Ray Peat from one of our members, tca300....

Me: If you don't mind me asking a question. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that you think starches are OK or even beneficial to eat, even when Fruit is available. Some are saying that super cooked starch to the point of it being wet and somewhat soggy, has beneficial effects that surpass sucrose. I was wondering if you think that stuff is accurate or is starch harmful and not ideal when compared to fruits and their sugars. Thank you!
Ray Peat: When a non-starchy fruit is available I think it’s always preferable to starch. Alkali-processed corn is the only kind that I’m willing to eat, and seldom that (e.g., corundas made with wood ashes).

Ray Peat: For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.
Ray Peat: Starch-grain embolisms can cause brain damage..
Ray Peat: There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.

Ray Peat: In the winter in the US, I use a lot of frozen orange juice concentrate, because good fruit is scarce. When you use refined sugar it’s important to avoid the starchy foods, emphasizing milk, cheese, eggs, fruits, and occasional liver and seafood. Cooked leafy greens and mushrooms should substitute for starchy vegetables.

Ray Peat doesn't see starch as ideal at all, doesn't eat it himself, and makes it clear that people with gut problems ( bacteria overgrowth, etc ) shouldn't eat them, and healthy people with fruit access should choose fruits instead of starches. After reading Rays work for over a decade, and having many conversations with him, its obvious to me that he doesn't see starch as a good food choice in relation to other commonly available foods ( in the U.S )
Whether or not YOU PERSONALLY think starch is ok/healthy or not has nothing to do with Ray Peats opinion on it.

 

[metabolizm]

"a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health"

I think that settles the matter.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Since you are so in tune to your temps boris, how does a potato compare to the bowl of beans? I am so happy that the Ray Peat pyramid has our beloved potato ?

I ask this because I am weighing the two as to which is a b

"a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health"

I think that settles the matter.

Did you read his interview right before you posted?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Did you read his interview right before you posted?

Ray Peat: For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.
Ray Peat: Starch-grain embolisms can cause brain damage..
Ray Peat: There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Ray Peat: For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.
Ray Peat: Starch-grain embolisms can cause brain damage..
Ray Peat: There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.

We are not debating whether or not you can live to be 100 eating starch, we are debating if starch is an optimal choice or even "Peaty"

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I ask this because I am weighing the two as to which is a b

Did you read his interview right before you posted?

You should having put in the rest of your quote ?

 

[boris]

@Rinse & rePeat Potato makes me feel very warm! I remember a few years ago my mother and aunt were eating some green beans for dinner while I was visiting and they both were shivering afterwards and had to put on a blanket in the perfectly heated room.

 

[wealthofwisdom]

Being a centenarian does equal good health. My ex-mother-in-law is 96 and looks great, but is hoping for death to come soon because she feels so rotten with grotesquely swollen ankles, maddening rashes and strange growths. She says is tired of all the pasta meals they keep getting from the meal delivery services intended for the elderly. She is happy when I bring her care packages of short ribs, meatloaf and such. I think you would be hard pressed to find a centarian that would choose starches over meat.

Ok, I do have to comment on this. My father just turned 99 and he has none of these issues. He's old, that's for sure. He uses a walker (but can walk without one) and isn't as sprightly as he used to be, but he's incredibly healthy and people always think he's about 10 years younger. He's almost definitely going to live to at least 100.

He's been what I've always called a "healthy eater" my entire life. His diet is basically the WAPF from what I can tell: whole wheat bread (that he used to make himself, from flour he ground himself, but that he now gets at bread shop), milk (when I was a child we only drank raw milk that he bought illegally from a local dairy farm), weird juices that he makes from blending whatever fruits he has together (he's an eccentric man), pretty low sugar (he believes the sugar is bad) but not super strict about it (however when I was a kid I wasn't allowed to eat processed sugar OR processed bread, especially white bread which I was taught was the devil), variety of fruits, oatmeal, eggs, cheese, salad (when I was a kid I had to eat a salad every night before dinner), whatever meat...Basically the WAPF diet to a t. Except I don't remember him taking cod liver oil and we never ate fish (because I always hated it).

Now he was probably blessed with extremely healthy genes, but he has outlived both his younger and older brother, and most of his friends. The #1 thing I think he did that contributed to his health food-wise over his life, is his natural abhorrence to overly processed foods. He always insisted on making everything himself. But he eats a ton of (whole) grains and is very healthy. If we're talking anecdotes of people over 90...

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rinse & rePeat Potato makes me feel very warm! I remember a few years ago my mother and aunt were eating some green beans for dinner while I was visiting and they both were shivering afterwards and had to put on a blanket in the perfectly heated room.

I have been been going back and forth some time now between beans, potato and masa, as to which would be the best between them. How about the masa, how does that compare for you against the potato?

 

[tallglass13]

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue." - RP

I don't know. You really believe that all modern medicine/science is so useless that they can't make out starch granules in arterial plaques under their microscopes if it were true? I guess if someone can confirm it and that those granules block arteries , he should get a Nobel Prize for saving humanity.

Do you really think the Powers that Be want to save humanity?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Ok, I do have to comment on this. My father just turned 99 and he has none of these issues. He's old, that's for sure. He uses a walker (but can walk without one) and isn't as sprightly as he used to be, but he's incredibly healthy and people always think he's about 10 years younger. He's almost definitely going to live to at least 100.

He's been what I've always called a "healthy eater" my entire life. His diet is basically the WAPF from what I can tell: whole wheat bread (that he used to make himself, from flour he ground himself, but that he now gets at bread shop), milk (when I was a child we only drank raw milk that he bought illegally from a local dairy farm), weird juices that he makes from blending whatever fruits he has together (he's an eccentric man), pretty low sugar (he believes the sugar is bad) but not super strict about it (however when I was a kid I wasn't allowed to eat processed sugar OR processed bread, especially white bread which I was taught was the devil), variety of fruits, oatmeal, eggs, cheese, salad (when I was a kid I had to eat a salad every night before dinner), whatever meat...Basically the WAPF diet to a t. Except I don't remember him taking cod liver oil and we never ate fish (because I always hated it).

Now he was probably blessed with extremely healthy genes, but he has outlived both his younger and older brother, and most of his friends. The #1 thing I think he did that contributed to his health food-wise over his life, is his natural abhorrence to overly processed foods. He always insisted on making everything himself. But he eats a ton of (whole) grains and is very healthy. If we're talking anecdotes of people over 90...

Yep sounds like my dad before he ruined his health, eating more junk food and cheap foods. You are blessed to have such a good role model.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yep sounds like my dad before he ruined his health, eating more junk food and cheap foods. You are blessed to have such a good role model.

Like I said in my comment before yours, "We are not debating whether or not you can live to be 100 eating starch, we are debating if starch is an optimal choice or even "Peaty"

 

[boris]

I have been been going back and forth some time now between beans, potato and masa, as to which would be the best between them. How about the masa, how does that compare for you against the potato?

Oh, I haven't eaten potato in a while, so I don't have a direct comparison. Hard to say.



Peat is not a big fan of beans by the way. I don't know if sprouting/soaking reduces the phytoestrogens.

Natural Estrogens

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The estrogenic properties of legumes were studied when sheep farmers found that their sheep miscarried when they ate clover. (I think it's interesting how this terribly toxic effect has been neglected in recent decades.) All legumes have this property, and all parts of the plant seem to contain some of the active chemicals. In beans, several substances have been found to contribute to the effect. The estrogenic effects of the seed oils and the isoflavones have been studied the most, but the well-known antithyroid actions (again, involving the oils, the isoflavones, and other molecules found in legumes) have an indirect estrogen-promoting action, since hypothyroidism leads to hyperestrogenism. (Estrogens are known to be thyroid suppressors, so the problem tends to be self-accelerating.)

The various specific actions of the many estrogenic substances in beans and other legumes haven't been throughly studied, but there is evidence that they are also--like estrogen itself--both mutagenic and carcinogenic.​

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yep sounds like my dad before he ruined his health, eating more junk food and cheap foods. You are blessed to have such a good role model.

Thanks for weighing in wealthofwisdom, your response is to my point on my post Calming Food Fears. This post was not intended to throw a wrench in anyone's evening meal, but to make it more clear for hard core Ray Peater's, such as I, that you are not on the right track thinking you're going to turn back the clock and get your metabolism at it's finest dabbling in the high phosphorus anti-nutrient pool.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Oh, I haven't eaten potato in a while, so I don't have a direct comparison. Hard to say.



Peat is not a big fan of beans by the way. I don't know if sprouting/soaking reduces the phytoestrogens.

Natural Estrogens

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The estrogenic properties of legumes were studied when sheep farmers found that their sheep miscarried when they ate clover. (I think it's interesting how this terribly toxic effect has been neglected in recent decades.) All legumes have this property, and all parts of the plant seem to contain some of the active chemicals. In beans, several substances have been found to contribute to the effect. The estrogenic effects of the seed oils and the isoflavones have been studied the most, but the well-known antithyroid actions (again, involving the oils, the isoflavones, and other molecules found in legumes) have an indirect estrogen-promoting action, since hypothyroidism leads to hyperestrogenism. (Estrogens are known to be thyroid suppressors, so the problem tends to be self-accelerating.)

The various specific actions of the many estrogenic substances in beans and other legumes haven't been throughly studied, but there is evidence that they are also--like estrogen itself--both mutagenic and carcinogenic.​

Yeah I have read a lot of his warnings of beans, but he has also said that a half a cup maybe once or twice a week can be beneficial for clearing out excess estrogens and toxins. I love them, but wasn't sure it was the "optimal" splurge. You pretty much decided it for me thanks!

 

[wealthofwisdom]

Since the topic veered to centenarians and starch, I just thought I'd share my dad's experience, since it was just so apropos. Metabolism has never been his issue, nor has it been mine. For me it's energy and mood, which is what led me to investigating new diet models. But since we were sharing stories of 90+ year olds, I thought I'd share one I know well.

 

[Apple]

Ok, I do have to comment on this. My father just turned 99 and he has none of these issues. He's old, that's for sure. He uses a walker (but can walk without one) and isn't as sprightly as he used to be, but he's incredibly healthy and people always think he's about 10 years younger. He's almost definitely going to live to at least 100.

He's been what I've always called a "healthy eater" my entire life. His diet is basically the WAPF from what I can tell: whole wheat bread (that he used to make himself, from flour he ground himself, but that he now gets at bread shop), milk (when I was a child we only drank raw milk that he bought illegally from a local dairy farm), weird juices that he makes from blending whatever fruits he has together (he's an eccentric man), pretty low sugar (he believes the sugar is bad) but not super strict about it (however when I was a kid I wasn't allowed to eat processed sugar OR processed bread, especially white bread which I was taught was the devil), variety of fruits, oatmeal, eggs, cheese, salad (when I was a kid I had to eat a salad every night before dinner), whatever meat...Basically the WAPF diet to a t. Except I don't remember him taking cod liver oil and we never ate fish (because I always hated it).

Now he was probably blessed with extremely healthy genes, but he has outlived both his younger and older brother, and most of his friends. The #1 thing I think he did that contributed to his health food-wise over his life, is his natural abhorrence to overly processed foods. He always insisted on making everything himself. But he eats a ton of (whole) grains and is very healthy. If we're talking anecdotes of people over 90...

Just curious...Is he a coffee drinker ?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Since the topic veered to centenarians and starch, I just thought I'd share my dad's experience, since it was just so apropos. Metabolism has never been his issue, nor has it been mine. For me it's energy and mood, which is what led me to investigating new diet models. But since we were sharing stories of 90+ year olds, I thought I'd share one I know well.

I wish my dad would have stayed his course like your dad Wealth. We use to call my dad Jack Lalane, the fitness authority of the 60's. My dad was unknowingly, very "Peaty" and the Tom Selleck of his day. He was an amazing gymnast, cometitive diver and was urged to join the Olympics as a competitive swimmer. We had to eat liver once a week, oysters, homemade ice cream often, he made his own yogurt, we had brewers yeast daily, and he was a scuba diver, so we ate a lot of seafood too. We went to Straw Hat Pizza for splurges maybe once a month. He dumped all of that after he and my mom divorced, for lack of time probably. He was a fireman and had no time with his full dating schedule. So he started eating differently, bringing back candy bars, cheap ice cream and other junk foods, and pizza weekly. To continue getting all the girls, he adhered to the Atkins roller coaster for the next 30 years. He had several bouts of diverticulitis from so much meat and tons of nuts. It is now very sad to us all, to see him trade a plate of Danishes in for what wpuld otherwise be an enriching life where we use use admire him. Now I have to worry and run around behind him constantly fixing all that he undoes. It is an unnecessary tragedy, and I don't want to follow in his footsteps anymore, all because a Danish and other starches are that important to him. Serious Wealth you should see how he ravenously consumes them and how sedated he gets afterwards, like he just did street drugs!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

There are a ton of testimonials like these all over this site.

 

[famalalam]

I agree with trusting one's own experience above all else...

But the problem is that the toxicity of many substandard foods can't be felt immediately. Many people seem to feel 'just fine' eating a steady diet of processed PUFA's, processed grains, processed sugars, and artificial colors/flavors...until they don't.

In other words, I doubt that everyone can feel the negative effects of starch, so I wouldn't use that as my guideline.

Further, choosing to go starch-free is very far from having an eating disorder!

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Besides, I measure my temperature and pulse, and they're both good after I've eaten starch. I feel like not trusting your own experience and putting your faith in Peat's work is very culty and not a very good thing. I think Peat has on numerous occasions encouraged people think for themselves in order to cause hypertrophy in the part of the brain that's responsible independent thinking. And that summarizes just about this entire thread.