Is possible gain muscle only in concentric training

[Michael Mohn]

Doing only 12 minutes of exercise a week would provide a lot less lactic acid than pretty much any other training program. For that reason, body by science/ HIT is pretty peaty compared to everything else (high volume pump training.

Peat warns against breathless exercise.

Every HIT proponent brags about collapsing to the ground after just 12min of training.
HIT accumulates excess lactic acid that needs to be recycled by the liver.
Higher volume training is better for hypertrophy, endurance and as good for strength then low volume training.

If you read my OP, I have posted a way to be completely peaty when weightlifting : minimal lactic acid and 0 eccentric movements

McGuff and other HIT proponents praise the benefit of eccentric movement and training to failure/exhaustion.
So you turned HIT protocol into a non-HIT/more peaty protocol and therefore HIT protocol is peaty?

Ok.

Yes, drmcguffs diet is not good I agree. But I would argue most on the forum were convinced by paleo at some point, this is not a reason to think his science is not valid

You're convinced before you test a hypothesis, if you test at all. That's a problem.

 

[Michael Mohn]

The subtitle of the book is literally " A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week", I dont think he "admitted" its not good for bodybuilding lol.

You got me, you little LolBert!

The head cover is obviously the only thing you read from the book.

If you read McGuff's blog you would learn to be more critical of your own beliefs and more open minded, maybe.
McGuff does not recommend a HIT protocol for athletics.

McGuff doesn't believe that a HIT protocol is best to be a successful, competitive bodybuilder.
His focus is to bring people who did nothing to do something in terms of fitness.

 

[Sapien]

Every HIT proponent brags about collapsing to the ground after just 12min of training.

No, only body by science followers attest to that. The principals of training to failure to effectively work the fast twitch muscle fibers and avoiding overtraining are the key principals behind HIT, these do not require breathless exercise.
You are falsely correlating body by science, one persons application on the valid theory of HIT, to HIT as a whole. "12 minutes" came from Doug McGuff, not Arthur Jones, not Dorian yates, not Mike Mentzer
Body by Science, while not necessarily a "gimmick" makes the claim of " A Research Based Program for Strength Training, bodybuilding, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week". The inclusion of breathless exercise is to achieve this claim of "complete fitness". I do not nor ever have thought this was a good idea ( I rest several minutes in between sets), yet still think his book explains the principals of HIT very well and is a good resource.

So you turned HIT protocol into a non-HIT/more peaty protocol and therefore HIT protocol is peaty?

"I" didn't, John Little, a disciple of Mike Mentzer, came up with Max Contraction training. You claim it is non - HIT; this couldn't be further from the truth, as John is a believer in HIT. In this program, you are effectively training the fast twitch fibers by performing a contraction against an immovable weight (the same concept behind training to failure, Henemens size principal); and avoiding overtraining by only performing one set per exercise every 7+++ days. The only thing I would differ with Little on is taking more rest in between sets, to avoid breathless exercise.

HIT is Peaty, regardless of if you do Max Contraction or not. You are limiting the total amount of exercise needed to the smallest amount possible; thus providing exponentially less total stress than a conventional routine.

 

[Sapien]

HIT accumulates excess lactic acid that needs to be recycled by the liver.

How in the world would one set per exercise, and training infrequently, accumulate more lactic acid than the conventional 3-5 sets per exercise and training 4-5 days a week?

Everything I have read suggests that higher volume is the way to achieve lactic acid build up
" Basically, the belief is that by doing lots of repetitions (about 2-3 sets of 12-25 repetitions) of an exercise, using a relatively lighter weight (about 30% of your one-rep maximum), with very little rest between, you can build up the lactic acid in your body, and ultimately boost the amount of muscle you're putting on." lactic acid training


"Fairly light movements performed in sets of very high repetitions –especially if such movements are restricted to partial-range movements –will produce the maximum possible degree of muscular pumping; but will do little or nothing in the way of building size or strength" (Arthur Jones Natilus Bullitin #1)


"This type of training is pretty simple. You can do it with any type of resistance training that you are able to do for 20 to 50 repetitions... Ideally, you should repeat this for about 6 to 12 sets, depending on your strength and endurance levels" lactic acid training


While training in the 6-10 rep range, one set to failure, WILL produce some lactic acid, it is from my perspective a lot less than conventional "pump" traing popuarized by Arnold.

Max contraction training on the other hand, only requires a single contraction of 1-6 seconds, and can mitigate this lactic acid release even more, thus why I made the claim "If you read my OP, I have posted a way to be completely peaty when weightlifting : minimal lactic acid and 0 eccentric movements"

 

[Michael Mohn]

How in the world would one set per exercise, and training infrequently, accumulate more lactic acid than the conventional 3-5 sets per exercise and training 4-5 days a week?

So we have only a choice between two extremes?
Kinda start losing faith in your guidance.

Everything I have read suggests that higher volume is the way to achieve lactic acid build up

I challenge you to run 400m under 60 secs without dropping to the ground, because then you will repeat it 12 times without a break.
That is Body by Science protocol in a nutshell.
Lactic acid production raises faster with higher intensity and will spill over into the bloodstream, flooding the liver. Lower intensity and higher volume allows the low twitch muscle fiber to metabolize some of the lactic acid produced by the fast twitch fiber muscle.

 

[Sapien]

That is Body by Science protocol in a nutshell.

I’m not advocating body by science protocol as I stated already. You are creating a false dichotomy. HIT does not have to include “dropping to the ground”

challenge you to run 400m under 60 secs without dropping to the ground, because then you will repeat it 12 times without a break.

 

[Sapien]

.

 

[Sapien]

Lactic acid production raises faster with higher intensity and will spill over into the bloodstream, flooding the liver. Lower intensity and higher volume allows the low twitch muscle fiber to metabolize some of the lactic acid produced by the fast twitch fiber muscle.

Literally every article on lactic acid training reccomends high volume, you are reccomending the exact opposite. You need to provide some evidence for your position as the burden of proof is on you. Your statement reads as broscience without scientific literature to back it up.

 

[Sapien]

So we have only a choice between two extremes?

You yourself stated “high volume low intensity”, thus my comment

 

[Michael Mohn]

Literally every article on lactic acid training reccomends high volume, you are reccomending the exact opposite. You need to provide some evidence for your position as the burden of proof is on you. Your statement reads as broscience without scientific literature to back it up........................,................

Dude, this non sense you wrote about when Glykogen is gone the body has to resort to lactic acid I saw it before you deleted it!!!

Yeah Bro, you have no clue about glucose oxidation but I have to provide proof, sure!

And as a reminder I argue against HIT and Body by Science (both are similar in concept). So if you argue against my position you argue for it, but you can't hold an argument and then you excuse yourself with some max contract BS I never mentioned. You're as cringe as your handle announced it, Bro.

 

[Sapien]

Literally every article on lactic acid training reccomends high volume, you are reccomending the exact opposite. You need to provide some evidence for your position as the burden of proof is on you. Your statement reads as broscience without scientific literature to back it up.

Care to refute this statement?

 

[Sapien]

as a reminder I argue against HIT

Your only arguments so far agaisnt HIT is that it is very cardio intensive, although as I stated this is not a prerequisite of HIT; and the fact that It produces more lactic acid Than high volume training; which from everything I read, is not the case. This is actually one of the reasons HIT appealed to me

I admit I am a noob to all this ; lactic acid and such. I was mistaken in my statement about glycogen, my fault.

I am asking questions not to be proven right but to get a better understanding.

 

[Michael Mohn]

Literally every article on lactic acid training reccomends high volume, you are reccomending the exact opposite.

This is literally every article on "lactic acid training" you found?

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Btw I never mentioned "lactic acid training", just another red herring.

Higher volume, lower intensity, avoiding muscle failure/exhaustion, doing multiple sets, having pauses between sets reduces lactic acid spill over into the bloodstream and allows the muscle/ mitochondria to convert pyruvate into ATP (energy) and CO2.
Basically how every competitive athlete trains.


View: https://youtu.be/6oV0fBNbtHk

 

[Sapien]

So you turned HIT protocol into a non-HIT/more peaty protocol and therefore HIT protocol is peaty

This^ was in response to my statement “I have found a way to be completely peaty when weight training (max contraction training)

, but you can't hold an argument and then you excuse yourself with some max contract BS I never mentione

So yes, you did mention “max contraction bs”

Which, is not bs in any means.

 

[Sapien]

intensity

I must clarify, what is your definition of “intensity”? Proximity to failure?

 

[Sapien]

I must clarify, what is your definition of “intensity”? Proximity to failure?

I ask because most of the studies I have seen relating lactic acid to “intensity” use “intensity” to mean things such as heart rate.
“ the increase in lactate concentration on the skin surface on working muscle is associated with increase in exercise intensity (heart rate), and 2) the skin surface lactate concentration on the working muscle can be used as a parameter of exercise intensity in each subject.” The Relationship between Exercise Intensity and Lactate Concentration on the Skin Surface

This is a different definition of intensity than is used in HIT circles

 

[Michael Mohn]

Your only arguments so far agaisnt HIT is that it is very cardio intensive,

Wrong. I argue that training to failure (central goal of HIT) does exhaust the nervous system, that's why you need a week of rest to recover, some people need even more.

Secondly, HIT does cause pyruvate to be excrete into the blood as lactic acid instead of being metabolized into CO2 and ATP / energy in the mitochondria

although as I stated this is not a prerequisite of HIT; and the fact that It produces more lactic acid Than high volume training; which from everything I read, is not the case.

You just fail to grasp the fact that glucose is always metabolized into pyruvate and if there's to much of it to be metabolized by mitochondria it will be excrete from the cell plasma into the tissue as lactic acid and if other parts of the tissue can use the lactic acid, converting it back into pyruvate, the lactic acid will go into the bloodstream, raise the pH to critical levels and then you have a systemic exhaustion.

I admit I am a noob to all this ; lactic acid and such. I was mistaken in my statement about glycogen, my fault.

I am asking questions not to be proven right but to get a better understanding.

For a noob you seem to be very certain of your opinion.

It's called Dunning Kruger effect.

 

[Michael Mohn]

I ask because most of the studies I have seen relating lactic acid to “intensity” use “intensity” to mean things such as heart rate.
“ the increase in lactate concentration on the skin surface on working muscle is associated with increase in exercise intensity (heart rate), and 2) the skin surface lactate concentration on the working muscle can be used as a parameter of exercise intensity in each subject.” The Relationship between Exercise Intensity and Lactate Concentration on the Skin Surface

This is a different definition of intensity than is used in HIT circles

The definition of intensity is the work/effort/load over a certain time period. The higher the work/load and the shorter the time the higher the intensity. It's a purely mechanical definition.
The point is the higher the intensity the faster you reach exhaustion, breathlessness being a major warning sign and not "peaty".
You can do high intensity sets but than you need long pauses in between sets.
Sprinters will often do a set of 10 x 30m dashes at almost 100% but they will have a 3-5 minute break in between each run.

 

[Sapien]

Here are several more

“high volume programme allows the trainee to both increase muscle and lose fat, as well as to adapt to a high lactic acid threshold”

“The build-up in lactic acid in the muscle cell is created by a limited level of oxygen going to the muscle cell due to the demand of high exertion in energy through a high volume workout”

High Volume Training | Example Workout )


“Muscle pumps occur largely because of fluid buildup that accumulates in your muscles when you work out. When you lift weights, blood rushes to your working muscles, and lactic acid begins to build up and draw water into your muscle fibers
To maximize your muscle pump, try these tips:

• Do high-volume weightlifting instead of high-load weightlifting. More muscle contraction means more reason for your body to send blood to those muscles.

(How to Grow Your Muscles With Just One Workout)
(Arthur Jones talks about how “the pump” is not a good indicator of effective training in natilus bullitin #1. “Chasing the pump” is something popularized by Arnold and a key aspect of high volume training.)

“Immortalized by Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 1977 documentary Pumping Iron, “the pump” is the temporary increase in a muscle’s size that follows ultraintense sets of high-repetition resistance exercises. As your muscles contract during a lift, metabolic compounds such as lactic acid accumulate in and around the muscle cells. Water and blood is then drawn into the muscle (“pumped,” if you will) as a defence mechanism against the inflammation brought on.”

( How ‘The Pump’ can help give your muscles – and ego – a quick boost )

Not chasing the pump and instead focusing on mechanical tension (fatiguing the fast twitch fibers) is the key principal behind HIT as described by Arthur Jones. Therefore, I would think it would produce drastically less lactic acid than a typical high volume approach

“

Reason #1: The pump focuses on stressing the wrong system​

Metabolic stress vs. mechanical tension​

Chasing the pump focuses on creating as much metabolic stress as possible… Blood is being pumped into the muscle and cellular swelling occurs. This leads to the muscles looking much bigger than usual.

Researchers theorize that this can potentially lead to increased muscle growth. As research continues to come out, it appears that the link between hypertrophy and metabolic stress is indirect at best.¹ There may be a cause and effect, but it is not nearly as clear as mechanical tension.

Mechanical tension focuses on creating as much force production as possible out of the muscle. You do this by stimulating as many muscle units as possible.”

HIT states that this pump is not only unnecessary, but detrimental, as it impedes recovery
“

Reason #2: It causes too much fatigue​

Many programs that focus on the pump lead to small amounts of rest and a lot of sets and reps. This leads increased muscle damage and an accumulation of lactic acid and other metabolites. This can cause an increase in CNS fatigue and muscular fatigue.”


View: https://medium.com/in-fitness-and-in-health/3-reasons-why-chasing-the-pump-is-a-waste-of-time-29ad8497430f


I could list countless more sources, but I think my point has been maken. From all I have seen, HIT would produce drastically less lactic acid.
although training to failure will indeed produce some lactic acid, you can’t possibly believe doing one set is more lactic acid inducing than high volume training??

 

[Sapien]

For a noob you seem to be very certain of your opinion

Everything I have read suggests that high volume training is very lactic acid inducing. Read my post above ^. I am a noob in the sense of the biochemistry behind it, but the overwhelming evidence seems to be on my side