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Vitamin K And D Reverse Muscle Aging, May Act Like Sports Doping Agents

haidut

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Hmm how much k2 is too much? Would .5mg per day be beneficial enough for aspirin? Im trying to not lower my estrogen too much because of crackling joints and tiredness.

Peat said 1mg vitamin K can offset the bleeding risks of 325mg aspirin. I don't think there is an upper (NOAEL) dose discovered for vitamin K2. The studies with rats showed that even a HED did no harm and the organs kept gobbling up the vitamin K, which shows the body likes to get as much as it can. However, like anything else it can probably cause imbalance in the sense that it could increase the need for vitamin A, and D. So, I think for long term preventive use maybe 1mg-2mg daily are OK, especially when taken with aspirin.
 

sladerunner69

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Peat said 1mg vitamin K can offset the bleeding risks of 325mg aspirin. I don't think there is an upper (NOAEL) dose discovered for vitamin K2. The studies with rats showed that even a HED did no harm and the organs kept gobbling up the vitamin K, which shows the body likes to get as much as it can. However, like anything else it can probably cause imbalance in the sense that it could increase the need for vitamin A, and D. So, I think for long term preventive use maybe 1mg-2mg daily are OK, especially when taken with aspirin.

Thanks I appreciate your input.

What about using kuinone? Each drop contains 1.5mg k2... however it has dmso and with the hormonal products the dose is amplified as you have described, by as much as 10x. Does this dmso potency amplification affect vitamins in the same way?
 

haidut

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Thanks I appreciate your input.

What about using kuinone? Each drop contains 1.5mg k2... however it has dmso and with the hormonal products the dose is amplified as you have described, by as much as 10x. Does this dmso potency amplification affect vitamins in the same way?

Kuinone does not have DMSO any more, but I do think that it should be more effective than oral vitamin K. So maybe 1-2 drops daily are enough.
 

sladerunner69

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Kuinone does not have DMSO any more, but I do think that it should be more effective than oral vitamin K. So maybe 1-2 drops daily are enough.

Well the one I bought last year does have dmso, so do you think the 10× amplification happens with vitamins as it does to hormones? If so I may dilute it a bit.
 

sladerunner69

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Great question as I wonder about the same. As well as side effects or downside of 15 mg plus

Yes lately im wondering even I have been causing myself any harm or discomfort from suppressing estrogen levels through various supplements as well as diet ...
 

haidut

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Well the one I bought last year does have dmso, so do you think the 10× amplification happens with vitamins as it does to hormones? If so I may dilute it a bit.

I would not dilute it, it is good as it is.
 

A.R

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@haidut I know I've posted this before, but felt it was more appropriate to post it on this thread

The upcoming vit d supplement, imo it would be amazing if it was in dmso, as it would be great stacked with a dmso version kuinone

Thank You for all your great work
 

LeeLemonoil

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Vitamin K2 improves proliferation and migration of bovine skeletal muscle cells in vitro

Vitamin K2 improves proliferation and migration of bovine skeletal muscle cells in vitro


Skeletal muscle function is highly dependent on the ability to regenerate, however, during ageing or disease, the proliferative capacity is reduced, leading to loss of muscle function. We have previously demonstrated the presence of vitamin K2 in bovine skeletal muscles, but whether vitamin K has a role in muscle regulation and function is unknown. In this study, we used primary bovine skeletal muscle cells, cultured in monolayers in vitro, to assess a potential effect of vitamin K2 (MK-4) during myogenesis of muscle cells. Cell viability experiments demonstrate that the amount of ATP produced by the cells was unchanged when MK-4 was added, indicating viable cells. Cytotoxicity analysis show that MK-4 reduced the lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) released into the media, suggesting that MK-4 was beneficial to the muscle cells. Cell migration, proliferation and differentiation was characterised after MK-4 incubation using wound scratch analysis, immunocytochemistry and real-time PCR analysis. Adding MK-4 to the cells led to an increased muscle proliferation, increased gene expression of the myogenic transcription factor myod as well as increased cell migration. In addition, we observed a reduction in the fusion index and relative gene expression of muscle differentiation markers, with fewer complex myotubes formed in MK-4 stimulated cells compared to control cells, indicating that the MK-4 plays a significant role during the early phases of muscle proliferation. Likewise, we see the same pattern for the relative gene expression of collagen 1A, showing increased gene expression in proliferating cells, and reduced expression in differentiating cells. Our results also suggest that MK-4 incubation affect low density lipoprotein receptor-related protein 1 (LRP1) and the low-density lipoprotein receptor (LDLR) with a peak in gene expression after 45 min of MK-4 incubation. Altogether, our experiments show that MK-4 has a positive effect on muscle cell migration and proliferation, which are two important steps during early myogenesis.
 

Collden

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Bump. I just updated the original thread with another study, which makes the direct claim that vitamin K2 and D3 may have ergogenic effects for athletes. The suggested doses are quite reasonable - about 5,000 IU for D3 and a few milligrams for K2.
I've wondered about why many sources advocate supplementing vit K2 in the milligram range. 5000-10 000 IU of D3 is quite easy to get from natural sun exposure, but getting anything close to a milligram or more of vit K2 from your diet is very far-fetched unless you consume tons of foie gras or natto every day. Would make more sense if a fair share of vit K1 is converted to K2, since you can easily get milligrams of vit K1 from leafy greens and these foods have always been part of the traditional conception of a healthy diet.

AFAIK even Chris Masterjohn said recently the optimal intake of vit K2 was not more than around 200ug per day.
 

Momado965

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thanks for share,
some articles have a theory that those osteocalcin hormone like effects on glucose metabolism and testosterone boosting effects are before it gets carboxylated by vitamin k, right after that it just has a structural role to attach calcium and co2 to bones.

my understanding was that vitamin k doesnt stimulate OC synthesis by itself , but that reference says otherwise!




"While lactic acidosis causes bone loss, acidosis caused by increased carbonic acid doesn't; low bicarbonate in the body fluids seems to remove carbonate from the bone (Bushinsky, et al., 1993), and also mineral phosphates (Bushinsky, et al., 2003). The parathyroid hormone, which removes calcium from bone, causes lactic acid to be formed by bone cells (Nijweide, et al., 1981; Lafeber, et al., 1986). Lactic acid produced by intense exercise causes calcium loss from bone (Ashizawa, et al., 1997), and sodium bicarbonate increases calcium retention by bone. Vitamin K2 (Yamaguchi, et al., 2003) blocks the removal of calcium from bone caused by parathyroid hormone and prostaglandin E2, by completely blocking their stimulation of lactic acid production by bone tissues. Aspirin, which, like vitamin K, supports cell respiration and inhibits lactic acid formation, also favors bone calcification.". - Would carbonated beverages and/or baking soda be protective to bones?
 

paymanz

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"While lactic acidosis causes bone loss, acidosis caused by increased carbonic acid doesn't; low bicarbonate in the body fluids seems to remove carbonate from the bone (Bushinsky, et al., 1993), and also mineral phosphates (Bushinsky, et al., 2003). The parathyroid hormone, which removes calcium from bone, causes lactic acid to be formed by bone cells (Nijweide, et al., 1981; Lafeber, et al., 1986). Lactic acid produced by intense exercise causes calcium loss from bone (Ashizawa, et al., 1997), and sodium bicarbonate increases calcium retention by bone. Vitamin K2 (Yamaguchi, et al., 2003) blocks the removal of calcium from bone caused by parathyroid hormone and prostaglandin E2, by completely blocking their stimulation of lactic acid production by bone tissues. Aspirin, which, like vitamin K, supports cell respiration and inhibits lactic acid formation, also favors bone calcification.". - Would carbonated beverages and/or baking soda be protective to bones?
Yes they might help to some degree.

Your whole diet,the way you breath and type of activity is important for co2 production.

ray peat said:
Exercise, like aging, obesity, and diabetes, increases the levels of circulating free fatty acids and lactate. But ordinary activity of an integral sort, activates the systems in an organized way, increasing carbon dioxide and circulation and efficiency.
 

Momado965

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Yes they might help to some degree.

Your whole diet,the way you breath and type of activity is important for co2 production.


I breath mostly from my nose. Is it necessary to keep my tounge on the roof of my mouth as per Dr Mew?
 

paymanz

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I breath mostly from my nose. Is it necessary to keep my tounge on the roof of my mouth as per Dr Mew?
Not familiar with that.

keeping my lower belly relaxed helps me. But ultimately you need to have a calm nervous system to retain co2, otherwise your belly become tense when you forget about it!

I also noticed red light exposure deepens my breaths which is a sign that i have more co2 in my body, idk if its increased co2 production or my nervous system is calmer in red light, or both! But it also help.

Either red LEDs or heat lamps, or sunlight, all of them help.
 
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paymanz

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I've wondered about why many sources advocate supplementing vit K2 in the milligram range. 5000-10 000 IU of D3 is quite easy to get from natural sun exposure, but getting anything close to a milligram or more of vit K2 from your diet is very far-fetched unless you consume tons of foie gras or natto every day. Would make more sense if a fair share of vit K1 is converted to K2, since you can easily get milligrams of vit K1 from leafy greens and these foods have always been part of the traditional conception of a healthy diet.

AFAIK even Chris Masterjohn said recently the optimal intake of vit K2 was not more than around 200ug per day.
Agree, and yes we can convert k1 to mk4.however some people do it better than others.

Thats interesting chris has said that , i think at some point we just need a maintenance dose. Because we can recycle vitamin k in our body.
 

Momado965

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Not familiar with that.

keeping my lower belly relaxed helps me. But ultimately you need to have a calm nervous system to retain co2, otherwise your belly become tense when you forget about it!

I also noticed red light exposure deepens my breaths which is a sign that i have more co2 in my body, idk if its increased co2 production or my nervous system is calmer in red light, or both! But it also help.

Either red LEDs or heat lamps, or sunlight, all of them help.


Thanks.
 

haidut

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I've wondered about why many sources advocate supplementing vit K2 in the milligram range. 5000-10 000 IU of D3 is quite easy to get from natural sun exposure, but getting anything close to a milligram or more of vit K2 from your diet is very far-fetched unless you consume tons of foie gras or natto every day. Would make more sense if a fair share of vit K1 is converted to K2, since you can easily get milligrams of vit K1 from leafy greens and these foods have always been part of the traditional conception of a healthy diet.

AFAIK even Chris Masterjohn said recently the optimal intake of vit K2 was not more than around 200ug per day.

There is a human study with MK-4 that showed anything less than 600mcg did NOT result in improvement of biomarkers of bone anabolism, and 900mcg or more were needed for a true bone "anabolic" effect. That does not mean it did not affect other aspects of health beneficially, but it seems for a true "anabolic" effects higher doses than what can be obtained from food are needed.
Low-dose menaquinone-4 improves γ-carboxylation of osteocalcin in young males: a non-placebo-controlled dose–response study

Btw, with advancing age the conversion of K1 into K2 is very low, which may explain why humans trials with higher doses K1 did not find much benefit for cardiovascular health or all-cause mortality.
 

maillol

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Haidut's post got me inspired to learn more about this osteocalcin, so I decided to put this together and hopefully someone else can learn something from it as well...

Osteocalcin, acts as a hormone and is able to increase testosterone, increase insulin and its sensitivity, as well as decrease fat mass by increasing energy expenditure.

Osteocalcin, (a.k.a. bone gamma-carboxyglutamic acid-containing protein (BGLAP)), is a noncollagenous protein hormone found in bone and dentin. Osteocalcin is secreted mainly by osteoblasts and a few other tissues, such as adipose tissue, and it was mainly thought to only aids in bone-building,

When the osteoblast releases osteocalcin, it's either in it's carboxylated or undercarboxylated form. The carboxylated form is when vjtamin K "activates" it so that it can aid in bone mineralization in the bone matrix. The undercarboxylated osteocalcin are released into the blood stream. Undercarboxylated are the hormonally active form of osteocalcin.

High levels (too high) of undercarboxylated osteocalcin are associated with:

  • high levels of adiponectin (better insulin sensitivity)
  • more insulin secretion (it stimulates the beta cells of the pancreas)
  • increased energy expenditure
  • lower fat mass
  • higher testosterone
  • impaired glucose metabolism (hyperinsulinemia and hypoglycemia) (1)
  • Soft tissue calcification (thats why you need vitamin K to carboxylate a fraction of osteocalcin to prevent negative effects)
Whereas too low levels of undercarboxylated osteocalcin is associated with:

  • hyperglycemia
  • hypoinsulinemia
  • insulin resistance
  • reduced energy expenditure
  • obesity
  • reduced testosterone levels
Both lower and higher total osteocalcin levels predicted increased all-cause mortality rates, with comparable associations for cardiovascular and noncardiovascular deaths. (2)



Testosterone
Undercarboxylated osteocalcin acts on the Leydig cells of the testis to stimulate testosterone biosynthesis via the bone-testis axis. The undercarboxylated osteocalcin binds to a G protein-coupled receptor (GPCR6A), which is expressed in the testis, and regulates StAR, Cyp11a, Cyp17 and 3β-HSD, cAMP and Cyp2r1 expression, through CREB as the transcriptional mediator which activates these enzymes. (3, 4, 5)

StAR are the rate limited enzyme that transports cholesterol from the outer mitochondria into the inner mitochondria of the Leydig cells to synthesize the precursor to all steroids, pregnenolone.

Cyp11a is the enzyme that converts cholesterol into pregnenolone.

Cyp17 (17,20lyase) is the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA).

3β-HSD is the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and DHEA to androstenedione in the adrenal gland.

cAMP acts as a second messenger in cells and also increases testosterone synthesis and further increases StAR activity.

Cyp2r1 is the enzyme that converts vitamin D into its active form. The active form of vitamin D also acts as a hormone, a steroid hormone, and has a significantly positive effect on steroidogenesis.

Osteocalcin-deficient mice exhibit increased levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), however this is not enough to raise testosterone to adaquate levels, hence the lower testosterone levels. (6) LH is associated with highertestosterone as well as higher estrogen.

Circulating undercarboxylated osteocalcin is also positively correlated with free testosterone. (7)



Exercise
Osteocalcin also acts on muscle cells to promote energy availability and utilization and in this manner favors exercise capacity. Osteocalcin signaling in myofibers is necessary foradaptation to exercise by favoring uptake and catabolism of glucose and fatty acids, and it's also mostly responsible for the exercise-induced release of interleukin-6, a myokine that promotes adaptation to exercise. (8)



How to increase osteocalcin:

Vitamin D
Vitamin D, and mostly the active form of vitamin D, stimulate the synthesis of osteocalcin (1,25-(OH)2D3) in a dose dependent manner. (9, 10)



Vitamin K2
High intake of vitamin K results in a low proportion of undercarboxylated osteocalcin. Osteoblast releases inactive (undercarboxylized) osteocalcin, which is then activated (carboxylized) by vitamin K, which then undergoes decarboxylation in the resorption lacunae (osteoclast). This means the osteoclast also releasesundercarboxylated osteocalcin, which is hormanally active. Vitamin K has been associated with enhanced bone mineral density, increased testosterone, enhanced insulin sensitivity and better glucose tolerance. The exact same benefits as undercarboxylized osteocalcin, meaning higher intake of vitamin K might not lead to lower undercarboxylated osteocalcin, as both he osteoblast and the osteoclast releases it into the circulation. It's possible that vitamin K increases total osteocalcin, and therefore the amount of undercarboxylated osteocalcin increase, despite that the ratio of undercarboxylated osteocalcin to carboxylated osteocalcin stay he same or decrease a bit.



Insulin & leptin
The osteoblast in bone contains insulin receptors, and requires insulin to active the receptors and result in an increase in osteocalcin. (11) A high fat diet result in a decrease in undercarboxylated osteocalcin and thus a decrease in insulin sensitivity. This could leads to insulin resistance, low/impaired bone turnover and increased fat mass. (12)

Leptin also positively increases osteocalcin, whereas high levels decrease it. (13, 14)



Magnesium

Osteocalcin mRNA is reduced in a magnesium deficiency, and therefore osteocalcin synthesis is reduced. (15) Also, magnesium ions induce significant increases in osteocalcin levels in human osteoblasts. (16)



Exercise
Acute exercise (especially aerobic exercise) appeared at least in part related to increased undercarboxylated osteocalcin levels. (17)



Lower cortisol

Chronic elevated cortisol leads to weight gain, insulin resistance, and diabetes, increased aromatase, degraded androgen receptors and increase risk of autoimmune disease, etc, and it also suppresses osteoblast function, including osteocalcin synthesis. (18)



Zinc

Zinc is known to aid in bone formation and zinc intake are positively associated with osteocalcin levels as zinc stimulates the osteoblast. (19) Just be sure to consume enough zinc rich foods and maybe take a supplement. 50mg a day would be a good starting dose.



Growth hormone
Osteoblasts have receptors for GH and these cells produce large amounts of IGF-I. IGF-I has positive effects on bone formation; firstly, it is known to stimulate the formation of osteocalcin, collagen, and noncollagenous matrix proteins by differentiated osteoblasts and secondly, it increases the number of functional osteoblasts by promoting osteoprogenitor cell replication. (20)

Let me know what you guys think...
This is a good summary Hans.
 

Coderr

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I found one K complex vitamin product.
Content:
Vitamin K 200 µg
Menakuinon 4 160 µg
Menakuinon 7 40 µg

How do you think? How many drops do you suggest to take per day?
 

YourUniverse

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Chris masterjohn recommends 200mcg of k2 per day for optimal health. I haven't heard Peat give a recommendation on k2 quantity, other than the classic 1mg of k per 325mg aspirin tablet.

There's roughly 30mcg of k2 in a pastured egg.

There's roughly 90mcg of k2 (conservatively) in 1.5tbsp of cultured butter. This figure is based on a study that found roughly this amount in cultured cheeses. The K2 in cultured cheese is concentrated in its fat, and butter obviously has more fat than cheese. Cheeses are usually 22-30% milk fat, with butters usually 80%.

Google tells me Muenster and Jarlsberg cheeses are the richest in k2.

Frying 2 pastured eggs in 1.5tbsp cultured butter and having a few ounces of good cultured cheese either with breakfast or dinner, nets ~215mcg.

Add the k2 in milk, which increases in k2 PER CALORIE as the milk fat % does, and it becomes quite easy to hit 400mcg of k2 even while drinking skim milk, the least k2 dense of the milks.
 
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