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Vitamin K And D Reverse Muscle Aging, May Act Like Sports Doping Agents

haidut

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both taken transdermally?

Topically for Kuinone and oral/topical for Thorne. The oral route for Thorne was better than topical.
 

haidut

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Did anyone ever get the skinnny on exactly what kind of adverse reaction Peat was talking about between K2 and vit E taken at the same time? I've been worried about this ever since, and it's annoying because I take both E and K and like them both and would like to take both daily, but now am worried about interactions. Since there are no specifics, just a vague reference, I'm wondering if it's just a supposition.

The both share the same transport protein, so taking high doses of both at the same time may inhibit absorption of the other. Similar to taurine and beta alanine. But I think he meant also that since vitamin K is a quinone and tocopherol is an alcohol, the quinone can potentially oxidize the alcohol and turn the tocopherol into in a hydroquinone or some other reactive molecule. Just speculation as he did not provide specifics but I have seen studies talk about oxidation of vitamin E in to quinones and other reactive molecules.
 

whodathunkit

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The both share the same transport protein, so taking high doses of both at the same time may inhibit absorption of the other. Similar to taurine and beta alanine. But I think he meant also that since vitamin K is a quinone and tocopherol is an alcohol, the quinone can potentially oxidize the alcohol and turn the tocopherol into in a hydroquinone or some other reactive molecule. Just speculation as he did not provide specifics but I have seen studies talk about oxidation of vitamin E in to quinones and other reactive molecules.
Thanks. So does this go for high doses only...? What do you consider would be a "window of safety" to space apart dosages of each? Just opinion is fine. Not looking for hard and fasts, just a guideline. I need both and have sort of fixated on this, which is keeping me from taking what I think I need to take. LOL
 

haidut

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Thanks. So does this go for high doses only...? What do you consider would be a "window of safety" to space apart dosages of each? Just opinion is fine. Not looking for hard and fasts, just a guideline. I need both and have sort of fixated on this, which is keeping me from taking what I think I need to take. LOL

I think vitamin E under 200 IU daily and vitamin K under 5mg daily are probably OK and will not saturate the transport protein. Of course, if taken topically the protein binding may not even matter as both can enter the cell passively through diffusion.
 

Ron J

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I think vitamin E under 200 IU daily and vitamin K under 5mg daily are probably OK and will not saturate the transport protein. Of course, if taken topically the protein binding may not even matter as both can enter the cell passively through diffusion.
I had the impression that you can't mix vit E tocopherols with K2, even if it's to apply it topically. That means kuinone can be made with tocopherols as the DMSO free version.
 

haidut

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I had the impression that you can't mix vit E tocopherols with K2, even if it's to apply it topically. That means kuinone can be made with tocopherols as the DMSO free version.

No it can't because you need a lot more tocopherol than 200 IU per serving to actually dissolve vitamin K. Mixing vitamin E and K is not the same as dissolving K into E. The benefits of vitamin E as a carrier are seen mostly when the active ingredient is actually dissolved in it and not just mixed.
 

Wagner83

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Vitamin D and K have a primary role in bone metabolism, together with calcium and the androgenic hormones. Ray has written about the importance of these vitamins not only for bone health but also for insulin sensitivity and accelerating deactivation of estrogen.
A paper on vitamin k and inslin sensitivity

Effect of vitamin K supplementation on insulin sensitivity: a meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS:
A total of eight trials involving 1,077 participants met the inclusion criteria. A wide variety of participants were enrolled, including older men, postmenopausal women, prediabetic premenopausal women, and participants with a history of diabetes, hypertension, or vascular disease. Vitamin K1 and vitamin K2 (MK-4 and MK-7 subtypes) were assessed. Supplementation period ranged from 4 weeks to 3 years. Vitamin K supplementation did not affect insulin sensitivity as measured by homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance, fasting plasma glucose, fasting plasma insulin, C-reactive protein, adiponectin, leptin, and interleukin-6 levels.

CONCLUSION:
Our analysis suggests no effect of vitamin K supplementation on insulin sensitivity.
 

Dante

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Well, it did lower my hb1Ac% from 5.1 to 4.8 ( was using health natura) along with my serum calcium .
Glycated hemoglobin - Wikipedia
So, I believe in the insulin sensitizing and blood sugar lowering effects of k2. It's a damn powerful stuff, at least for me. At higher doses (> 1 mg), it can easily cause pain in fingers and joints for me.
 
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Did anyone ever get the skinnny on exactly what kind of adverse reaction Peat was talking about between K2 and vit E taken at the same time? I've been worried about this ever since, and it's annoying because I take both E and K and like them both and would like to take both daily, but now am worried about interactions. Since there are no specifics, just a vague reference, I'm wondering if it's just a supposition.

these were posted once before. They don't show it's bad. But E and K seem to be kind of naturally antagonistic in the body


Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet
Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet

Effect of vitamin E supplementation on vitamin K status in adults with normal coagulation status.
Effect of vitamin E supplementation on vitamin K status in adults with normal coagulation status. - PubMed - NCBI

Supplementation of rats with a lutein mixture preserved with vitamin E reduces tissue phylloquinone and menaquinone-4.
Supplementation of rats with a lutein mixture preserved with vitamin E reduces tissue phylloquinone and menaquinone-4. - PubMed - NCBI

Haemorrhagic toxicity of a large dose of alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherols, ubiquinone, beta-carotene, retinol acetate and L-ascorbic acid in the rat.
Haemorrhagic toxicity of a large dose of alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherols, ubiquinone, beta-carotene, retinol acetate and L-ascorbic aci... - PubMed - NCBI

Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks.
Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks. - PubMed - NCBI

Vitamin E decreases extra-hepatic menaquinone-4 concentrations in rats fed menadione or phylloquinone.
Vitamin E decreases extra-hepatic menaquinone-4 concentrations in rats fed menadione or phylloquinone. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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I take them at the same time and found the K2 seems to work much better topically with E, than ingesting K2 by itself.
 

Wagner83

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At higher doses (> 1 mg), it can easily cause pain in fingers and joints for me.
It did for me after two weeks with 1 or 2 mg of Kuinone (dmso), haidut said he gets the wrist/finger pain from androsterone and it seems to correlate well with other substances that profoundly lower estrogens.
 

paymanz

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I'm not sure but vitamin k probably is sensitive to oxygen/air contact, it topically may destroy some of it.
 

Watson350

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I take 2000 iu of vitamin D3 at night and 400 iu of e and 1 drop of Kuinone in the morning. Should I take the d3 with the Kuinone in the am?
 

Hans

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Haidut's post got me inspired to learn more about this osteocalcin, so I decided to put this together and hopefully someone else can learn something from it as well...

Osteocalcin, acts as a hormone and is able to increase testosterone, increase insulin and its sensitivity, as well as decrease fat mass by increasing energy expenditure.

Osteocalcin, (a.k.a. bone gamma-carboxyglutamic acid-containing protein (BGLAP)), is a noncollagenous protein hormone found in bone and dentin. Osteocalcin is secreted mainly by osteoblasts and a few other tissues, such as adipose tissue, and it was mainly thought to only aids in bone-building,

When the osteoblast releases osteocalcin, it's either in it's carboxylated or undercarboxylated form. The carboxylated form is when vjtamin K "activates" it so that it can aid in bone mineralization in the bone matrix. The undercarboxylated osteocalcin are released into the blood stream. Undercarboxylated are the hormonally active form of osteocalcin.

High levels (too high) of undercarboxylated osteocalcin are associated with:

  • high levels of adiponectin (better insulin sensitivity)
  • more insulin secretion (it stimulates the beta cells of the pancreas)
  • increased energy expenditure
  • lower fat mass
  • higher testosterone
  • impaired glucose metabolism (hyperinsulinemia and hypoglycemia) (1)
  • Soft tissue calcification (thats why you need vitamin K to carboxylate a fraction of osteocalcin to prevent negative effects)
Whereas too low levels of undercarboxylated osteocalcin is associated with:

  • hyperglycemia
  • hypoinsulinemia
  • insulin resistance
  • reduced energy expenditure
  • obesity
  • reduced testosterone levels
Both lower and higher total osteocalcin levels predicted increased all-cause mortality rates, with comparable associations for cardiovascular and noncardiovascular deaths. (2)



Testosterone
Undercarboxylated osteocalcin acts on the Leydig cells of the testis to stimulate testosterone biosynthesis via the bone-testis axis. The undercarboxylated osteocalcin binds to a G protein-coupled receptor (GPCR6A), which is expressed in the testis, and regulates StAR, Cyp11a, Cyp17 and 3β-HSD, cAMP and Cyp2r1 expression, through CREB as the transcriptional mediator which activates these enzymes. (3, 4, 5)

StAR are the rate limited enzyme that transports cholesterol from the outer mitochondria into the inner mitochondria of the Leydig cells to synthesize the precursor to all steroids, pregnenolone.

Cyp11a is the enzyme that converts cholesterol into pregnenolone.

Cyp17 (17,20lyase) is the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA).

3β-HSD is the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and DHEA to androstenedione in the adrenal gland.

cAMP acts as a second messenger in cells and also increases testosterone synthesis and further increases StAR activity.

Cyp2r1 is the enzyme that converts vitamin D into its active form. The active form of vitamin D also acts as a hormone, a steroid hormone, and has a significantly positive effect on steroidogenesis.

Osteocalcin-deficient mice exhibit increased levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), however this is not enough to raise testosterone to adaquate levels, hence the lower testosterone levels. (6) LH is associated with highertestosterone as well as higher estrogen.

Circulating undercarboxylated osteocalcin is also positively correlated with free testosterone. (7)



Exercise
Osteocalcin also acts on muscle cells to promote energy availability and utilization and in this manner favors exercise capacity. Osteocalcin signaling in myofibers is necessary foradaptation to exercise by favoring uptake and catabolism of glucose and fatty acids, and it's also mostly responsible for the exercise-induced release of interleukin-6, a myokine that promotes adaptation to exercise. (8)



How to increase osteocalcin:

Vitamin D
Vitamin D, and mostly the active form of vitamin D, stimulate the synthesis of osteocalcin (1,25-(OH)2D3) in a dose dependent manner. (9, 10)



Vitamin K2
High intake of vitamin K results in a low proportion of undercarboxylated osteocalcin. Osteoblast releases inactive (undercarboxylized) osteocalcin, which is then activated (carboxylized) by vitamin K, which then undergoes decarboxylation in the resorption lacunae (osteoclast). This means the osteoclast also releasesundercarboxylated osteocalcin, which is hormanally active. Vitamin K has been associated with enhanced bone mineral density, increased testosterone, enhanced insulin sensitivity and better glucose tolerance. The exact same benefits as undercarboxylized osteocalcin, meaning higher intake of vitamin K might not lead to lower undercarboxylated osteocalcin, as both he osteoblast and the osteoclast releases it into the circulation. It's possible that vitamin K increases total osteocalcin, and therefore the amount of undercarboxylated osteocalcin increase, despite that the ratio of undercarboxylated osteocalcin to carboxylated osteocalcin stay he same or decrease a bit.



Insulin & leptin
The osteoblast in bone contains insulin receptors, and requires insulin to active the receptors and result in an increase in osteocalcin. (11) A high fat diet result in a decrease in undercarboxylated osteocalcin and thus a decrease in insulin sensitivity. This could leads to insulin resistance, low/impaired bone turnover and increased fat mass. (12)

Leptin also positively increases osteocalcin, whereas high levels decrease it. (13, 14)



Magnesium

Osteocalcin mRNA is reduced in a magnesium deficiency, and therefore osteocalcin synthesis is reduced. (15) Also, magnesium ions induce significant increases in osteocalcin levels in human osteoblasts. (16)



Exercise
Acute exercise (especially aerobic exercise) appeared at least in part related to increased undercarboxylated osteocalcin levels. (17)



Lower cortisol

Chronic elevated cortisol leads to weight gain, insulin resistance, and diabetes, increased aromatase, degraded androgen receptors and increase risk of autoimmune disease, etc, and it also suppresses osteoblast function, including osteocalcin synthesis. (18)



Zinc

Zinc is known to aid in bone formation and zinc intake are positively associated with osteocalcin levels as zinc stimulates the osteoblast. (19) Just be sure to consume enough zinc rich foods and maybe take a supplement. 50mg a day would be a good starting dose.



Growth hormone
Osteoblasts have receptors for GH and these cells produce large amounts of IGF-I. IGF-I has positive effects on bone formation; firstly, it is known to stimulate the formation of osteocalcin, collagen, and noncollagenous matrix proteins by differentiated osteoblasts and secondly, it increases the number of functional osteoblasts by promoting osteoprogenitor cell replication. (20)

Let me know what you guys think...
 

Wagner83

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@Wagner83
@ecstatichamster
@Dante

Between Vitamin E and Vitamin K, which have you found more powerful for reducing estrogen? What dose would be needed to lower very high estrogen (with high water retention)?
I did not try vitamin e on its own. Estroban, kuinone and white button mushrooms broth can all be very effective, but you need to look at diet among other things. Aim for good digestion and avoid the obvious crap would be my 2 cents.
For what it's worth Westside PUFA said lowering salt intake allowed him to ditch a good deal of water weight.
 
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The best thing to get rid of estrogen in my opinion is speeding up your bowel transit time.

Mushrooms are powerful, vitamin K2 MK4 is fantastic (especially topical). But I think eating low residue foods, thyroid, doing a Richfield type reset, cascara, magnesium, can all be used to speed transit time and that is the secret to health I think.

Activated charcoal works the other way. I think it slows transit time, BUT it also adsorbs a lot of endotoxins and estrogen. Carrot removes some estrogen. Mushrooms mechanically bind bile (as does carrot I think), but it also has aroma tase inhibitors AND it powerfully sterilizes the small intestine.

Nothing beats two crappers a day instead of one.
 

sladerunner69

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Hmm how much k2 is too much? Would .5mg per day be beneficial enough for aspirin? Im trying to not lower my estrogen too much because of crackling joints and tiredness.
 

Watson350

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Hmm how much k2 is too much? Would .5mg per day be beneficial enough for aspirin? Im trying to not lower my estrogen too much because of crackling joints and tiredness.
Great question as I wonder about the same. As well as side effects or downside of 15 mg plus
 

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