CNN News - Running Lowers Testosterone In Males

[Regina]

Is the temperament of a bitchy girl inherent to girls or is having an unpleasant temperament universal across both sexes and all ages?

Well, that was a very flip way of me saying that these grown men behave in a manner that reminds me of the "mean girls" in high school stereotype. Gossiping, smearing, tattling, hyper-sensitive, irritable, back-stabbing, petty, obsessed with rank and status. I don't think they started out this way. I think the over-training has induced "andropause." They literally seem helpless to this state.

 

[Lokzo]

Rhodiola has no effect on Testosterone... Most users also report LOWER libido from it.

 

[Ulysses]

I've avoided swimming since several years because of this. That is, avoiding chlorine contact to the testes.


Associations between testicular hormones at adolescence and attendance at chlorinated swimming pools during childhood

This might be over-cautious as this was only tested in children, but I come from post-propecia about 7 years ago so I really got into the mindset of avoiding every anti-androgenic habits/substances and inversely so with pro-androgenic ones which I believe was key in restoring my hormonal homeostatis. Ryan Lochte with his dyed hair, metrosexual looks and mentally ill behaviours during the last Olympics also traumatized me into thinking of it as a "proof of theory" lol.

Anyway, it was just to share a train of thought that your quote launched. It probably has more benefits than negatives.

Yes, this study concerned me for a while too, and you will see people, on this basis, recommending the avoidance of all chlorinated pools. But, fortunately, I don't think there's much reason for concern:

The parental education level, a surrogate of the socio-economic status, and the active or passive exposure to tobacco smoke had no influence on serum inhibin B or testosterone. Associations with indoor chlorinated pools were unaltered by the exclusion of subjects who were members of a swimming club or of another competitive sport club (football, tennis and horse riding) (results not shown). Such associations were not found with LH, FSH and other hormones. There were also no significant associations between testicular hormone levels and cumulative attendance of outdoor pools or of the copper–silver pool cumulated during prepuberty or over lifetime time. We also found no significant associations (all p> 0.1) between testicular hormones levels and the cumulated attendance of indoor chlorinated pools after the age of 10 years...​

...If decreases in testicular hormones associated with the attendance of chlorinated indoor pools cannot be explained by the intensity of swimming, then they should be caused by a factor specifically linked to indoor chlorinated pools. The only factor that might affect reproductive health and that distinguishes indoor chlorinated pools from the other types of pool is the amount of CBPs released during the chlorination of organic matter brought by swimmers. Because of their higher bather load, public indoor pools are indeed much more heavily polluted by CBPs than residential pools and a fortiori than pools disinfected by the copper–silver method. Public pool water contains a variety of potential reprotoxicants among which the HANs, HAAs and THMs are the most abundant. These CBPs might quite conceivably damage the testes, especially the Leydig and Sertoli cells, which have long been known to be sensitive to toxic insults (Steinberger & Klinefelter, 1993). Another potential target of CBPs and in particular of chloramines is the blood–testes barrier (Mruk & Cheng, 2010; Lie et al., 2009), a structure formed by the tight junctions linking Sertoli cells, which is also a frequent target in chemical-induced testicular injury (Zhang et al., 2008; Siu et al., 2009). Chloramines are indeed membrane penetrating oxidants that can rapidly open tight junctions (Musch et al., 2006; Bernard, 2007). At the high concentrations found in public pool water, these CBPs might conceivably disrupt the blood–testes barrier and thereby decrease the viability and number of Sertoli cells. If one assumes that CBPs can cause damage to the blood-testes barrier or to the Leydig or Sertoli cells, these effects must necessarily vary with the concentrations of these reprotoxicants in pool water and hence with the level of organic pollution and the type of swimming pool. These effects also depend on the uptake and metabolism of these chemicals by the testes while the resulting changes in the serum levels of inhibin B and testosterone levels probably vary with feedback mechanisms controlling the production of these hormones. All these sources of individual variation might explain why decreases in inhibin B and total testosterone occur independently in the majority of subjects.

Extrapolation from animal studies suggests that CBPs are unlikely to be detrimental to the testes of swimmers at the doses that can be taken up in a swimming pool. If one refers to the risk assessment performed for chloroform, the highest dose of CBPs a child can absorb during a swimming session is more than two orders of magnitude lower the doses causing testicular damage in rodents (between 10 and 100 mg/kg2) (Smith et al., 1986; Linder et al., 1994, 1995, 1997; Graves et al., 2001; Christian et al., 2002; Abdel-Nahab, 2003). This assessment, however, is based on the systemic uptake of CBPs and does not make account of the direct uptake of CBPs across the scrotal skin nor on the sensitivity of the testes which might be higher in man than in rodents. When one considers the concentration of CBPs in swimming pool water, the lipophilic properties of these chemicals and the very high permeability of the scrotum compared with the rest of body, the direct uptake of CBPs by the testes could quite possibly lead to tissue concentrations in the same range as those causing testicular damage in experimental animals exposed by systemic route. The hypothesis of a transdermal testicular toxicity appears especially plausible as swimming pool water offers ideal conditions to skin absorption. The high temperature of the water (up to 35 °C in the small pool), the hydratation of the skin and the disrupting effects of chlorine on the skin barrier (Seki et al., 2003) are indeed all factors that in combination should greatly facilitate the permeation of CBPs across the scrotum. In that respect, it is interesting to note that human exposure to CBPs peaks during childhood when children cannot swim and have thus to attend the small pool, which is warm and heavily polluted by CBPs. This means that the exposure of the testes to CBPs culminates during the prepubertal period, precisely when the male reproductive system is under development and most vulnerable to toxic insult. This unfortunate coincidence between exposure to CBPs and sensitivity of the testis to hormone deregulation might explain why serum levels of inhibin B and testosterone are most strongly associated with pool attendance cumulated before the age of 10 or 7 years.
​

So, avoid indoor pools, and swim in the largest outdoor pool that's available. The earlier in the day, the better, too, since the filtration system works through the night with no burden.

 

[Elephanto]

@Ulysses Good advices and findings, thanks. Yes I know it wasn't seen in people older than 10 years old but I figured I had the testosterone levels of a child right after propecia (also consuming cannabis and masturbating frequently at the time). Once hormonal balance was shifted to one of a masculine man, I've found that I can tolerate androgenic injuries with no noticeable effect or with rapid recovery.

 

[Aymen]

I've avoided swimming since several years because of this. That is, avoiding chlorine contact to the testes.


Associations between testicular hormones at adolescence and attendance at chlorinated swimming pools during childhood

This might be over-cautious as this was only tested in children, but I come from post-propecia about 7 years ago so I really got into the mindset of avoiding every anti-androgenic habits/substances and inversely so with pro-androgenic ones which I believe was key in restoring my hormonal homeostatis. Ryan Lochte with his dyed hair, metrosexual looks and mentally ill behaviours during the last Olympics also traumatized me into thinking of it as a "proof of theory" lol.

Anyway, it was just to share a train of thought that your quote launched. It probably has more benefits than negatives.

why don't you swim in ocean / sea water ?

 

[haidut]

Marathon running undoubtedly lowers T. For shorter aerobic sessions, 30-45 minutes of moderate intensity, I am not so sure. I have tried many times to eliminate cardio from my workout routine, and always eventually add it back in because I feel so much better when doing it. My experience indicates that the prevailing "hour a day" recommendation is actually a maximum, not a minimum.

Agreed. Glycogen-bound running at a pace where you can keep a conversation is probably OK.

 

[Elephanto]

why don't you swim in ocean / sea water ?

I would.

 

[Fractality]

Bicycling is an excellent form of low intensity aerobic exercise. I always feel warm, calm, and euphoric after a bicycle ride (ideally away from main roads, think by the beach or around a lake).

 

[Wagner83]

chronic intestinal permeability

You talk a lot about chronic intestinal permeability and the foods which may cause it. Could you describe how you feel after eating foods which in your opinion increase intestinal permeability like potatoes or too much fructose?

 

[Runenight201]

Exercise selection, frequency, intensity, energy intake/quality, rest, and adaptation all play a role into whether exercise is positive or negative. When done properly, it can create some truly vibrant health.

Within any sport modality, you'll see individuals who positively adapted to their sport, or those who succeeded, but by running on catabolic stress hormones to get them by. In my opinion, the mixed martial arts and gymnastics should be prioritized, as learning how to move your body properly in space will have immense benefits, in terms of injury prevention AND cognitive enhancement. Daniel Wolpert believes that the human brain's sole purpose is to produce adaptable and complex movements. He cites a case of a sea squirt, which has a nervous system early in it's life to move around and find an environment to live in. Upon finding a suitable rock, it will attach and remain there for life, eating on algae and other foods that drift by. It will consequently consume it's own nervous system, because it is no longer necessary.



Some interesting points in that video, and I'm sure some statements that you guys may agree or disagree with.

Proper exercise adaptation -> increased BDNF, increased resiliency, increased cardiorespiratory health, optimal hormonal profile

Examples:

All very strong, healthy hair, proper facial development, androgenic af. Well...Khabib probably has some impaired intelligence, because of all the blows he's taken to the head (mma competition is extremely dangerous), and Arnold's steroid use probably wasn't good for his long term cardiorespiratory health, but that gymnast probably has vital sperm.

Movement training/gymnastics probably has the most benefits in terms of BDNF, intelligence, strength, and resiliency, and eliminates the negative risk of cranial blows in MMA. When the movements become more complex is when the danger increases, such as the incredible rotations and flips we see in the Olympics at high speeds, or some of the movements of breakdancers, but there are still plenty of movements and postures that are immensely challenging and safe (single-arm handstand/planche/pull up/etc...) It really should be mandatory for able-bodied kids, and I'm envious that I only played soccer a child and didn't do any gymnastics training.

Improper exercise adaptation - > Increased stress hormones, increased aging, poor hormonal health, metabolic disorder

Examples:

And myself I might add lol.

(I mainly follow soccer so that's why all my poor exercise adaptation examples are soccer players lol)

Andres Iniesta looks 45-50 for only being 34, Ronaldo claims to have metabolic syndrome, and Super Mario Gotze is a shell of his glorious youth self, claiming depression/metabolic syndrome.

So exercise, but exercise properly, yoga/taichi/martial arts/gymnastics should be prioritized IMO.​

 

[Elephanto]

You talk a lot about chronic intestinal permeability and the foods which may cause it. Could you describe how you feel after eating foods which in your opinion increase intestinal permeability like potatoes or too much fructose?

Well those foods won't cause it in a period where intestinal integrity is optimal unless there is really an excess; for instance eating a lot of spicy food and salt at once or drinking a lot of highly concentrated alcohol is a good way to induce intestinal permeability no matter the previous state. So I would compare the feelings more in terms of periods that are usually the result of negative habits for several days, and things like Zinc, Intermittent Fasting and the complete avoidance of gut irritants for a short period can help restore it and so you can then support a certain intake of gut irritants without noticing negative effects. The feelings themselves, I'd say I feel mentally-off and serotogenic (maybe autistic would be accurate; I believe it is a very large spectrum where even if you're far from fitting a diagnosed state you can still get closer or further from it), looks are depreciated (Endotoxins chronically promote Estrogen and Cortisol so pretty much the same visual signs; also visually unoptimal blood circulation), hair density takes a toll rapidly (I've achieved super thick density, which I also used to have as a child so it's not really apparent but it is felt passing my hand through my hair) which corresponds to the vasoconstricting effect someone mentioned, this vasoconstricting effect seems to also affect my flaccid penis size and erection quality but it could also be from the negative effect of Endotoxins on Testosterone as androgenic looks, libido and voice depth also diminish. For instance in rats the use of anti-bacterial onion juice has tripled Testosterone levels; but onions can be gut-irritating and bad for hair from triggering NO so safer substances are probably more sound. This effect on T with onion juice I think would also depend on basal NO levels since too much NO also inhibits Testosterone, and a bald guy (we can deduct high basal NO levels) who experimented with onions for 2 months based on this study and had bloodworks done didn't have an increase in T but his E2 levels significantly decreased. I think for some it would also increase acne, sebum and other skin disorders but I've never really had those in a significant way. Endotoxins also promote NO so mentally we could expect a neurotic state, as NO inhibition produces similar effects to NMDA inhibition and decreases Glutamate levels and related excicotoxicity (also see the study on nitrates inducing bipolarity).

 

[Elephanto]

@Runenight201
Good point about the biphasic effect of exercise, there's an interesting marker that indicates it which is IGFBP-3. It is essentially an anti-cancer gene that is found significantly lower in balding men, prostate cancer, breast cancer and other conditions.
IGFBP-3, a sensitive marker of physical training and overtraining. - PubMed - NCBI

In particular, there was a fall (of up to 25%) in IGFBP-3 levels after the match in the more fatigued subjects compared to an increase (of up to 40%) in fit subjects.

This is very telling of this biphasic effect, where daily exercise within the limits of your capacity is significantly beneficial and going over these limits is detrimental. Of course a soccer game can't be adapted to the capacity of each individual so some will suffer negative effects.

I also think there's a personality component to this. High-stress personalities will often get net negative effects from exercising whereas low-stress personalities reap the most benefits. I've definitely noticed it if I'm overthinking before starting an exercise session, I feel I'm not getting any benefit and now I just stop, take some time to relax and chase thoughts of my mind and even force heart-warming thoughts and a playful mentality before starting again. I also find that putting a podcast or talk radio (where the hosts aren't annoying) helps with keeping a calm mindstate during the session. Stimulating music is too much though. You can also see it in the balding, rapidly aging athletes where they often have an overachieving, adrenaline-based mind state when they play. Some positions are also more stressing than others, like that of a defender which is anxiogenic because it is all based on not making any mistake, whereas the attacker expresses himself more freely, it is more empowering and I'd even say, masculinizing. He also spends energy in shorter bouts, sprinting also being androgenic. The personality component is also about how you react to stress stimulis, in some people it creates fear and I believe a more damaging form of anxiety, in others they feel motivated and attack the challenge head-on.

 

[sladerunner69]

When news like this features on CNN, it is becoming obvious that something it not right with the official recommendations for regular (endurance) exercise as the best way to ward off CVD, cancer, brain diseases, osteoporosis, etc. The CNN piece also states that vitamin D supplements, weight lifting (concentric exercise) and saturated fat are good ways to increase testosterone (T) in males, while PUFA is less effective. The article did not go as far as saying that PUFA lowers T levels, but this is what the human studies show so far. It will probably be another decade before the realization of PUFA's dangers hits mainstream news media, but change seems to be coming.
On the negative side, the article is about the increasing rates of hypogonadism (male menopause, andropause) in young males. Early hypogonadism, just like early menopause in women, is strongly associated with declining health, and the latter has been confirmed in multiple studies on young people over the last 2 decades. Stroke, diabetes, and cancer rates have all increased significantly over the last 20 years, while strength, sperm counts and intelligence have declined. These developments have overwhelmingly "favored" the crowd younger than 40. I bet if people drop PUFA and "endurance" exercise from their lives this trend will be quickly reversed or at least stopped.

Low testosterone, or 'male menopause,' no longer just for older men - CNN
"...You may associate increased testosterone levels with athleticism, but not all physical activity is created equal.
Endurance cardio exercise, such as running marathons, actually lowers testosterone production. On the other hand, lifting weight using large muscles such as those in the legs and back can increase testosterone. "Deadlifts and squats are excellent for this purpose," Espinosa said."

"..."For peak testosterone production, some carbs are necessary, but preferably the slowly metabolized kind from high-fiber fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes," Hoffman said. When it comes to fat, research shows that saturated fats from such sources as grass-fed meats, coconut oil and macadamia nuts appear to support testosterone better than polyunsaturated fats from refined vegetable oils, he said."

"...Men who have been diagnosed with low testosterone should consider discussing certain supplements with their clinician, Espinosa said. He notes that vitamin D and zinc play important roles in the production of this hormone, while herbs such as ashwagandha and rhodiola may also be beneficial."

High testosterone hasn't always been viewed as healthy on this forum. High testosterone can be associated with high estrogen, through aromatase. And higher progesterone levels seem to be negatively correlated with testosterone- perhaps why so many men take progesterone and experience lowered libido.

 

[Mufasa]

I like to see exercise as a way to achieve optimal relaxation. If you are unable to completely relax after exercise, I think you are not getting the benefits exercise can provide.

Yoga does this quite right by always ending with a laying pose with eyes closed. However many yoga classes are way too long (60-90 minutes). I think 20 min intense yoga poses followed by 20 min of restorative/relaxing poses or meditation would be much more optimal.

I always notice that I can have more intense relaxation with more vivid “perception” (for example the observation of the breath) after doing some exercise, and I’m better able to shut down my “analytical” mind and worries while relaxing.

 

[Elephanto]

High testosterone hasn't always been viewed as healthy on this forum. High testosterone can be associated with high estrogen, through aromatase. And higher progesterone levels seem to be negatively correlated with testosterone- perhaps why so many men take progesterone and experience lowered libido.

High Testosterone is protective by inhibiting Cortisol, which is the main promoter of Aromatase. High Estrogen is much more likely to be associated with an average or lower than average T and chronically high stress (high DHT and DHEA-S would be good markers indicating this), Serotonin and Endotoxins (each also promoting Cortisol). This is also seen in balding men where they have slightly lower or average T (depending on studies), and significantly higher Estrogen, Cortisol, DHT and DHEA-S. Low Zinc is also found which is anti-aromatase, anti-cortisol/serotonin, intestinal barrier integrity and liver protecting (Endotoxins component) and androgenic. Naturally high T from optimizing health state through many parameters won't have the same effect as taking steroids which also damage the liver, leading to unrestricted Cortisol and Estrogen.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Hans]

I like to see exercise as a way to achieve optimal relaxation. If you are unable to completely relax after exercise, I think you are not getting the benefits exercise can provide.

Yoga does this quite right by always ending with a laying pose with eyes closed. However many yoga classes are way too long (60-90 minutes). I think 20 min intense yoga poses followed by 20 min of restorative/relaxing poses or meditation would be much more optimal.

I always notice that I can have more intense relaxation with more vivid “perception” (for example the observation of the breath) after doing some exercise, and I’m better able to shut down my “analytical” mind and worries while relaxing.

I noticed this too. Short intense exercise sessions are really energizing, but relaxing at the same time. After such a workout I can smell more intense and just have a really great calm feeling.
Too long, too heavy workout are quite the opposite.

 

[Aymen]

High Testosterone is protective by inhibiting Cortisol, which is the main promoter of Aromatase. High Estrogen is much more likely to be associated with an average or lower than average T and chronically high stress (high DHT and DHEA-S would be good markers indicating this), Serotonin and Endotoxins (each also promoting Cortisol). This is also seen in balding men where they have slightly lower or average T (depending on studies), and significantly higher Estrogen, Cortisol, DHT and DHEA-S. Low Zinc is also found which is anti-aromatase, anti-cortisol/serotonin, intestinal barrier integrity and liver protecting (Endotoxins component) and androgenic. Naturally high T from optimizing health state through many parameters won't have the same effect as taking steroids which also damage the liver, leading to unrestricted Cortisol and Estrogen.

have you used a Zinc Supplement before ?
which one is the safest ?
as i don't eat beef or lamb or oysters frequently , i want to buy a zinc supplement , maybe using a capsule of 15 mg twice a week .

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Just as with prolactin, the medical industry keeps re-defining the "normal" range. For prolactin they keep raising the upper limit and in the last 10 years the upper limit has gone from 14 to 22. For T they keep lowering the upper limit of "normal" so that it looks like the majority of men are in the upper 50%.

I think you have it backwards here with all due respect; if the medical industry was involved they would want more people on drugs, meaning more people not “normal”.

Lab ranges are nothing but Gaussian statistics and they keep becoming worse and worse because people keep testing worse and worse

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Also indeed, whatever exercise is chosen, I like to have a variety of intensities over a short period.

It could be interval cardio training for 30-45’ 3ish days a week, alternating with 3ish days a week of very heavy lifting for 20’ (obviously counting rest periods) and more moderate “pump” work for 30-40’, stretching or meditation sessions...