Hypogonadism in older males due to low OXPHOS

haidut

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I suspect many readers will simply say "duh!", but believe or not the origin of age-related hypogonadism in males is still considered unknown. Most endocrinologists have discovered experimentally that treating their patients with SERM or AI drugs restores androgens to youthful levels, but the actual cause of this decline in androgens in the first place is considered unknown. The study below suggests that this hypogonadism in older males may be simply due to low tissue oxygenation. Since the latter depends on CO2 production in said tissues (Bohr Effect), one could rephrase the findings to mean that age-related hypogonadism is due to lower OXPHOS in elderly males compared to younger ones. Another good insight of the study was that pregnenolone (P5) gets preferentially metabolized into progesterone (P4) when tissue oxygenation is low, since the activity of the enzyme 17a-hydroxylase is oxygen-dependent. This suggests that in older males, one may need to administer P5 together with some pre-formed DHEA in order to achieve a true TRT effect, instead of just accumulation of unmetabolized P4. Another option would be to administer P5 with an NAD precursor such as niacinamide (tissue oxygenation depends on the NAD/NADH ratio) and/or a quinone such as vitamin K, CoQ10, methylene blue, etc. Or, one could simply take thyroid and call it a day :):

Testosterone and Testosterone Precursors in the Spermatic Vein and in the Testicular Tissue of Old Men
"...Testosterone and the testosterone precursors pregnenolone, progesterone, 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, androstenedione, androstenediol and deny droepiandrosterone were measured in the spermatic vein plasma and in the testicular tissue of young and old men. Testosterone and its precursors decreased in the testicular tissue of old men. However, progesterone and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone increased in relation to testosterone in the testicular tissue and in the spermatic vein of old men. It is assumed that these age-dependent changes are caused by an impaired oxygen supply of the ageing testes. This hypothesis is supported by the observation that the same changes in steroid pattern seen in old age can be observed under reduced oxygen supply in in vitro incubation experiments with testicular tissue."

"...In search of an explanation for the changes in the steroid pattern in testicular tissue and the spermatic vein, we postulated that a decreased oxygen supply of the testes may alter the pattern of steroid production in the observed way. This assumption is supported by the data of Sasano and Ichijo (1969), who observed a high incidence of atherosclerotic changes in the testicular blood vessels of old men. We would expect that under low oxygen pressure pregnenolone is preferably converted to progesterone (not oxygendependent) rather than to 17a-hydroxypregnenolone (oxygen-dependent). We should thus observe increased concentrations of progesterone and the other steps of the A4 pathway (17a-hydroxyprogesterone and androstenedione). The effect should be most pronounced for progesterone, because the further metabolism of progesterone (17a-hydroxylation) again requires oxygen. In order to test our hypothesis we performed the in vitro incubation experiment, in which we systematically reduced the oxygen supply of the tissue. We predicted that the production of progesterone and 17a-hydroxyprogesterone would increase in relation to the testosterone production under reduced oxygen supply. This effect was indeed observed. Our in vitro experiment is one piece of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Leydig cell function in old age may be impaired as a consequence of reduced oxygen supply of the testes."
 
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Risingfire

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Super cool study! Did the study mention how many mgs of P5 they gave to the elderly man? The abstract doesn't say
 
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haidut

haidut

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Super cool study! Did the study mention how many mgs of P5 they gave to the elderly man? The abstract doesn't say

They actually worked with testicular tissue taken from men of various ages and conditions - control/healthy, men with varicocele, men with prostate cancer, etc. It was a measurement study, not an administration one. The suggestion to combine P5 with niacinamide, quinones, etc is mine as there is evidence such combinations may overcome the OXPHOS deficit in older tissues.
 

swarrior

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In that case ;

Can we use energin and other supplements on the testis to increase the "OXPHOS" ?
 

dallascat

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I suspect many readers will simply say "duh!", but believe or not the origin of age-related hypogonadism in males is still considered unknown. Most endocrinologists have discovered experimentally that treating their patients with SERM or AI drugs restores androgens to youthful levels, but the actual cause of this decline in androgens in the first place is considered unknown. The study below suggests that this hypogonadism in older males may be simply due to low tissue oxygenation. Since the latter depends on CO2 production in said tissues (Bohr Effect), one could rephrase the findings to mean that age-related hypogonadism is due to lower OXPHOS in elderly males compared to younger ones. Another good insight of the study was that pregnenolone (P5) gets preferentially metabolized into progesterone (P4) when tissue oxygenation is low, since the activity of the enzyme 17a-hydroxylase is oxygen-dependent. This suggests that in older males, one may need to administer P5 together with some pre-formed DHEA in order to achieve a true TRT effect, instead of just accumulation of unmetabolized P4. Another option would be to administer P5 with an NAD precursor such as niacinamide (tissue oxygenation depends on the NAD/NADH ratio) and/or a quinone such as vitamin K, CoQ10, methylene blue, etc. Or, one could simply take thyroid and call it a day :):

Testosterone and Testosterone Precursors in the Spermatic Vein and in the Testicular Tissue of Old Men
"...Testosterone and the testosterone precursors pregnenolone, progesterone, 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, androstenedione, androstenediol and deny droepiandrosterone were measured in the spermatic vein plasma and in the testicular tissue of young and old men. Testosterone and its precursors decreased in the testicular tissue of old men. However, progesterone and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone increased in relation to testosterone in the testicular tissue and in the spermatic vein of old men. It is assumed that these age-dependent changes are caused by an impaired oxygen supply of the ageing testes. This hypothesis is supported by the observation that the same changes in steroid pattern seen in old age can be observed under reduced oxygen supply in in vitro incubation experiments with testicular tissue."

"...In search of an explanation for the changes in the steroid pattern in testicular tissue and the spermatic vein, we postulated that a decreased oxygen supply of the testes may alter the pattern of steroid production in the observed way. This assumption is supported by the data of Sasano and Ichijo (1969), who observed a high incidence of atherosclerotic changes in the testicular blood vessels of old men. We would expect that under low oxygen pressure pregnenolone is preferably converted to progesterone (not oxygendependent) rather than to 17a-hydroxypregnenolone (oxygen-dependent). We should thus observe increased concentrations of progesterone and the other steps of the A4 pathway (17a-hydroxyprogesterone and androstenedione). The effect should be most pronounced for progesterone, because the further metabolism of progesterone (17a-hydroxylation) again requires oxygen. In order to test our hypothesis we performed the in vitro incubation experiment, in which we systematically reduced the oxygen supply of the tissue. We predicted that the production of progesterone and 17a-hydroxyprogesterone would increase in relation to the testosterone production under reduced oxygen supply. This effect was indeed observed. Our in vitro experiment is one piece of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Leydig cell function in old age may be impaired as a consequence of reduced oxygen supply of the testes."
When you say take thyroid, which one?
 

Risingfire

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They actually worked with testicular tissue taken from men of various ages and conditions - control/healthy, men with varicocele, men with prostate cancer, etc. It was a measurement study, not an administration one. The suggestion to combine P5 with niacinamide, quinones, etc is mine as there is evidence such combinations may overcome the OXPHOS deficit in older tissues.
Do think it's possible for a person in their 30's or 40's to have an OXPHOS deficit?
 

J.R.K

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I suspect many readers will simply say "duh!", but believe or not the origin of age-related hypogonadism in males is still considered unknown. Most endocrinologists have discovered experimentally that treating their patients with SERM or AI drugs restores androgens to youthful levels, but the actual cause of this decline in androgens in the first place is considered unknown. The study below suggests that this hypogonadism in older males may be simply due to low tissue oxygenation. Since the latter depends on CO2 production in said tissues (Bohr Effect), one could rephrase the findings to mean that age-related hypogonadism is due to lower OXPHOS in elderly males compared to younger ones. Another good insight of the study was that pregnenolone (P5) gets preferentially metabolized into progesterone (P4) when tissue oxygenation is low, since the activity of the enzyme 17a-hydroxylase is oxygen-dependent. This suggests that in older males, one may need to administer P5 together with some pre-formed DHEA in order to achieve a true TRT effect, instead of just accumulation of unmetabolized P4. Another option would be to administer P5 with an NAD precursor such as niacinamide (tissue oxygenation depends on the NAD/NADH ratio) and/or a quinone such as vitamin K, CoQ10, methylene blue, etc. Or, one could simply take thyroid and call it a day :):

Testosterone and Testosterone Precursors in the Spermatic Vein and in the Testicular Tissue of Old Men
"...Testosterone and the testosterone precursors pregnenolone, progesterone, 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, androstenedione, androstenediol and deny droepiandrosterone were measured in the spermatic vein plasma and in the testicular tissue of young and old men. Testosterone and its precursors decreased in the testicular tissue of old men. However, progesterone and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone increased in relation to testosterone in the testicular tissue and in the spermatic vein of old men. It is assumed that these age-dependent changes are caused by an impaired oxygen supply of the ageing testes. This hypothesis is supported by the observation that the same changes in steroid pattern seen in old age can be observed under reduced oxygen supply in in vitro incubation experiments with testicular tissue."

"...In search of an explanation for the changes in the steroid pattern in testicular tissue and the spermatic vein, we postulated that a decreased oxygen supply of the testes may alter the pattern of steroid production in the observed way. This assumption is supported by the data of Sasano and Ichijo (1969), who observed a high incidence of atherosclerotic changes in the testicular blood vessels of old men. We would expect that under low oxygen pressure pregnenolone is preferably converted to progesterone (not oxygendependent) rather than to 17a-hydroxypregnenolone (oxygen-dependent). We should thus observe increased concentrations of progesterone and the other steps of the A4 pathway (17a-hydroxyprogesterone and androstenedione). The effect should be most pronounced for progesterone, because the further metabolism of progesterone (17a-hydroxylation) again requires oxygen. In order to test our hypothesis we performed the in vitro incubation experiment, in which we systematically reduced the oxygen supply of the tissue. We predicted that the production of progesterone and 17a-hydroxyprogesterone would increase in relation to the testosterone production under reduced oxygen supply. This effect was indeed observed. Our in vitro experiment is one piece of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Leydig cell function in old age may be impaired as a consequence of reduced oxygen supply of the testes."
I remember Dr Peat saying in an interview once that a side effect of a vasectomy was erectile dysfunction and that there was a study done in the eighties that showed this was a result of low progesterone.
I would have to wonder if this study also verifies that old study as to the cause of erectile dysfunction post vasectomy?
It amazes me the knowledge Dr Peat has and still very much retains, it gives me hope for growing old and it only being a meaningless number.
 

Motorneuron

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If our aim is to solve a defect in OXPHOS, is it better to concentrate with low doses of methylene blue? I know there is a difference between high and low electron dosage. Is it the same for K2 too?
 

swarrior

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Si nuestro objetivo es solucionar un defecto de OXPHOS, ¿es mejor concentrarnos con dosis bajas de azul de metileno? Sé que hay una diferencia entre la dosis de electrones alta y baja. ¿Es lo mismo para K2 también?
All the substances that improve the electronic chain and other process in relation with the energy (mithocondria).
Methylene blue; aspirin; B-complex; T3. Please if im wrong, correct me.
For me the big question is oral o topically (directly in the b*lls)
Im trying now some products and i have not the big results that I read in the forum.

Best regards
 

Gûs80

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I suspect many readers will simply say "duh!", but believe or not the origin of age-related hypogonadism in males is still considered unknown. Most endocrinologists have discovered experimentally that treating their patients with SERM or AI drugs restores androgens to youthful levels, but the actual cause of this decline in androgens in the first place is considered unknown. The study below suggests that this hypogonadism in older males may be simply due to low tissue oxygenation. Since the latter depends on CO2 production in said tissues (Bohr Effect), one could rephrase the findings to mean that age-related hypogonadism is due to lower OXPHOS in elderly males compared to younger ones. Another good insight of the study was that pregnenolone (P5) gets preferentially metabolized into progesterone (P4) when tissue oxygenation is low, since the activity of the enzyme 17a-hydroxylase is oxygen-dependent. This suggests that in older males, one may need to administer P5 together with some pre-formed DHEA in order to achieve a true TRT effect, instead of just accumulation of unmetabolized P4. Another option would be to administer P5 with an NAD precursor such as niacinamide (tissue oxygenation depends on the NAD/NADH ratio) and/or a quinone such as vitamin K, CoQ10, methylene blue, etc. Or, one could simply take thyroid and call it a day :):

Testosterone and Testosterone Precursors in the Spermatic Vein and in the Testicular Tissue of Old Men
"...Testosterone and the testosterone precursors pregnenolone, progesterone, 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, 17α-hydroxypregnenolone, androstenedione, androstenediol and deny droepiandrosterone were measured in the spermatic vein plasma and in the testicular tissue of young and old men. Testosterone and its precursors decreased in the testicular tissue of old men. However, progesterone and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone increased in relation to testosterone in the testicular tissue and in the spermatic vein of old men. It is assumed that these age-dependent changes are caused by an impaired oxygen supply of the ageing testes. This hypothesis is supported by the observation that the same changes in steroid pattern seen in old age can be observed under reduced oxygen supply in in vitro incubation experiments with testicular tissue."

"...In search of an explanation for the changes in the steroid pattern in testicular tissue and the spermatic vein, we postulated that a decreased oxygen supply of the testes may alter the pattern of steroid production in the observed way. This assumption is supported by the data of Sasano and Ichijo (1969), who observed a high incidence of atherosclerotic changes in the testicular blood vessels of old men. We would expect that under low oxygen pressure pregnenolone is preferably converted to progesterone (not oxygendependent) rather than to 17a-hydroxypregnenolone (oxygen-dependent). We should thus observe increased concentrations of progesterone and the other steps of the A4 pathway (17a-hydroxyprogesterone and androstenedione). The effect should be most pronounced for progesterone, because the further metabolism of progesterone (17a-hydroxylation) again requires oxygen. In order to test our hypothesis we performed the in vitro incubation experiment, in which we systematically reduced the oxygen supply of the tissue. We predicted that the production of progesterone and 17a-hydroxyprogesterone would increase in relation to the testosterone production under reduced oxygen supply. This effect was indeed observed. Our in vitro experiment is one piece of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Leydig cell function in old age may be impaired as a consequence of reduced oxygen supply of the testes."
This theory makes a lot of sense to me, as I've had sleep apnea and hypogonadism since I was 28 (currently 41), when I was thin. I got worse after 7 years of using high doses of omega-3 (dha) on medical advice, I simply became unable to metabolize glucose.

I retested Diamox 500mg, niacinamide (100mg 3x), pregnenolone (3x a week), masteron (30mg/day) and testosterone cypionate (100mg/week).

Unfortunately I was never able to get out of hypogonadism with PCT protocols. I would love to be able to live on pregnenolone and exemestane, without having to use exogenous testosterone (which causes me a lot of side effects).

Maybe I can get out of this condition by correcting my CO2 in the medium term...
 
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