Aesthetics / Muscle / Dieting

[ExCarniv]

That's funny... my old gym full of hardcore Olympic lifters (who competed at a national/international level) often ate candy and drank sugary energy replacement drinks throughout their workouts. I never once saw them snack on rice, potatoes or chicken. Lol. You have some pretty black and white views on sports nutrition me thinks.

Pre workout for quick energy is an obvious one, but he said going full on on 700g of sugar per day looking for refill muscle glycogen.

 

[Taotatoes]

Pre workout for quick energy is an obvious one, but he said going full on on 700g of sugar per day looking for refill muscle glycogen.

Ahh, k. Gotcha. I still know quite a few pro bodybuilders/athletes who do IIFYM (not aa many eat squeaky "clean" orthorexics these days since science has proven a carb is a carb). They tend to include a lot of ice-cream, smoothies, donuts, etc.

 

[Hans]

@GreekDemiGod
What if the pump/muscle swelling from certain starches is due to inflammation and estrogen increase? I wouldn't expect other less problematic starches/sugars to have the same effects.

Good point. Estrogen and a slow metabolism can promote a pump very quickly. When my metabolism was slow I'd get a pump real fast and lose muscle strength rapidly. Not a good place to be.

 

[Jon]

High Protein and starch, another guy with results eating like that, yet some angry people here thinking is impossible to have good physique and health without 3kg of fruits, quarts of milk and OJ, icecream and white sugar. Smh.

Thanks for sharing Jon and congrats.

Thanks buddy :).

Personally, I think starch should be the main fuel for humans. It’s basically muscle fuel since it only converts to glucose and thus either turns to glycogen or bodyfat, and even in the case of fat deposition it’s usually subcutaneous NOT VISCERAL (unlike fructose). The caveat is fructose makes glucose work BETTER and multiple studies confirm that 1 part fructose to about 3 parts glucose seems to be the range for optimal results, not just in a sitting, but also in a day worth of carbs in total.

I just followed my digestion. Things that digested well we’re potatoes, white rice, refined flours (pasta or homemade bread), lean meat (chicken, top sirloin, lean pork loin), skim milk, whole eggs, and little to no oils aside from some coconut oil. I tend to eat enough to feel satisfaction and found that my hunger normalized as I lowered my stress levels (which makes sense, since insulin sensitivity is heavily related to the state of the autonomic nervous system). I’ve always calculated my calories and tracked them to keep tabs on how much I’m eating but during my time trying to improve my metabolism I didn’t make myself stick within a certain amount of calories, I just made sure I didn’t eat too much fat, that I got enough protein, and made sure I ate things that didn’t hurt my stomach.

I keep fat at or below 0.3g per lb of lean mass, I keep pufa at or below 6g.

I make sure to get atleast 1g or protein per lb of lean mass, but usually hit 1.2g-1.4g per lb of bodyweight.

I train 4 days a week, do 6 week mesocycles interspersed with two weeks off, and average 27-32,000 steps a day (healthcare worker), and I go to a low level tanning bed 2-3x a week for vitamin D.

These I feel have been the most profound things for my results.

Actually, recently I had my chronic asthma flare up that I haven’t experienced since I was 11 (20 years ago lol) and I hadn’t been going to the tanning bed for the last 5ish months and after only going back for 2 days out of the last 6 my asthma has totally remised! So make sure you track you vitamin D levels and tend it and all it’s cofactors (magnesium, k2, etc.) as needed :)

 

[Jon]

That's funny... my old gym full of hardcore Olympic lifters (who competed at a national/international level) often ate candy and drank sugary energy replacement drinks throughout their workouts. I never once saw them snack on rice, potatoes or chicken. Lol. You have some pretty black and white views on sports nutrition me thinks.

Training for performance in relation to strength and especially power is very different from a goal of hypertrophy.

Olympic lifters, powerlifters, crossfitters, and strongmen appeal more to strength and power goals which are optimized by making the nervous system more proficient as opposed to gaining more contractile tissue. This goal is accomplished by intense training sessions that either focus on speed and power (fast concentrics, and un resisted or untrained eccentrics) or heavy strength (heavy weight done in relatively low volumes) neither of which optimize high threshold motor unit work for long enough to cause substantial hypertrophic adaptations in comparison to a high volume moderate weight style of training like bodybuilding requires. These sports essentially are performance based and thus a sugary boost during training is beneficial to the athlete to keep his glycogen stores high to make sure his prescribed numbers are being hit. Bodybuilders COULD take this approach for their training sessions, but in the name of optimal hypertrophy it would be in their best interest to use something like dextrose instead of something full of sucrose, since dextrose will only become glucose and sucrose may have too much fructose to not be malabsorbed and thus interfere with hypertrophy.

Also, performance based athletes USUALLY don’t try to actively gain weight like a bodybuilder and would prefer to add strength within their weight class which means not gaining much muscle is ideal. So the junk calories aren’t going to interfere too much with a performance based athletes nutrition unlike a bodybuilders where nutrient partitioning becomes vitally important during bulking lest a trainee gains a higher ratio of fat compared to lean mass.

 

[ExCarniv]

The caveat is fructose makes glucose work BETTER and multiple studies confirm that 1 part fructose to about 3 parts glucose seems to be the range for optimal results, not just in a sitting, but also in a day worth of carbs in total.

This is really interesting, I was tracking last couple weeks on Chronometer and noticed that I feel better and with more energy in the gym with a ratio of 2.5-3 to 1 of Starch to Sugar

 

[Jon]

This is really interesting, I was tracking last couple weeks on Chronometer and noticed that I feel better and with more energy in the gym with a ratio of 2.5-3 to 1 of Starch to Sugar

Makes sense :)

 

[Cecilia L.]

Agreed :). I think a more wholistic approach (protein, varied fibers, starch, fructose, etc.) is best for good health. Welllll...we burn fat plenty of the day, as soon as your blood glucose, insulin, and leptin fall to baseline levels (usually after around 4 hours fasted) you burn lots of fat. That’s what muscles run off of at rest. The caveat is like you said, at the end of the day did you eat enough calories to Maintain your body fat level.

Anyway, I do think you may be a bit misguided on fasting being best for maintaining metabolism during a deficit (or otherwise). Too small of a meal window will cause peripheral insulin resistance via heightened cortisol (and probably adrenaline) resulting from fasting. Notice how at around the 12 hour mark of fasting you lose your hunger? ( I experienced that every time) that’s your body raising your cortisol, purging your liver and muscle of glycogen, and probably spiking your adrenaline to keep you alert since you are running low on blood sugar at that point. Counting calories may be a pain, but it’s tried and true, and it will allow you to keep a better metabolism than fasting will since 3- 4 meals has been shown to be superior for insulin sensitivity compared to 1, 2, or 6 (assuring roughly 4 hrs between meals).

Newbie here: female trying to gain more health but at the same time lose some fat? Is there any info on how one would be able to calculate a starting point for needed calories per day? based on the metabolic health principals? I am 5'8 and weight 185 currently -- Gained 25 with eating for my metabolism since Nov. I would love to lose those lbs again and possible another 10ishh? what kind of macros do you think I could try and work with?

 

[Cecilia L.]

Most of Ray Peat's principles in general do in fact work and are sound.


3) Dairy does in fact cause weight gain if the person does not tolerate it well. I think this is due to the opiate effect of the casein fraction. I have seen dairy wreck a few people, but I have also seen it greatly support people, It is individual, only way to tell is to experiment.


How does one know if dairy is an issue for us?
what could be a good carbs/sugar target per meal?

 

[Jon]

Newbie here: female trying to gain more health but at the same time lose some fat? Is there any info on how one would be able to calculate a starting point for needed calories per day? based on the metabolic health principals? I am 5'8 and weight 185 currently -- Gained 25 with eating for my metabolism since Nov. I would love to lose those lbs again and possible another 10ishh? what kind of macros do you think I could try and work with?

Hello m, @Cecilia L. :)

Here’s a pretty accurate TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) calculator: BMR Calculator

This one uses the Mifflin St. Jeor formula which is a more modern calculation for BMR (basal metabolic rate). There are others like the Katch McArdle, but that formula requires knowledge of what your bf % is.

Anyway, once youve figureD out what maintenance calories are after you’ve accounted for your Activity Level, you’ll then want to decrease these calories by 20-30%. 20% is a very modest rate of loss, 30% is about as extreme of a rate as you can go within the realm of keeping healthy. A sustainable weight loss program is one you can do consistently, and there are more nuances to a well laid out dieting strategy, but this should get you started.

The best macro split I’ve found for me and MOST others (but not all) is one that has you eating 0.8-1 gram of protein per pound of total bodyweight OR per lb of lean mass, eating 0.3-0.6 grams of fat per lb of total bodyweight OR per lb of lean mass (women usually tend to feel better eating at the higher end of that spectrum), and finally whatever calories are left after equating protein and fat are given to carbs.

So for me this would look like

Protein=4cals per gram
Carbs= 4cals per gram
Fat=9cals per gram

My Maintenance cals: 2760

Protein: 155lbs x 1 = 155g.
155 x 4= 620cals

Fat: 155 x 0.3 = 46.5g
46.5 x 9 = 418.5cals

620+418.5 = 1038.6cals

2760 - 1038.5 = 1721.5 cals

Carbs: 1721.5 / 4 = 430.3 grams of carbs.

Total macros:

Protein: 155g
Carbs: 430.3g
Fat: 46.5g

This is maintenance. If I wanted to find deficit cals I’d just begin the calculations with my calorie level I’m deciding to diet at. Hope this makes sense!

Edit: I should also add that losing fat is going to be a stressful thing that hinders metabolism to some degree regardless of how you approach it, up until you stop dieting. Physiologically speaking, stress IS what makes fat loss possible. But even though stress is unavoidable and albeit a necessity, you can mitigate the amount of stress you incur by managing how much fatigue you take on. Imo the best way to do this is by dieting in phases or cycles. Basically you diet for a period of time (say a month) lose weight for those 4ish weeks, and then recalculate your new maintenance cals based on your new lower bodyweight. Once you’ve been at maintenance for 2-4 weeks (known as a “diet break”) then you jump back into a deficit and lose more weight from where you’ve been maintaining by calculating another 20-30% calorie deficit off of your new bodyweight. If you keep rinsing and repeating this process, you should be able to attain the bodyweight you want with the most minimal amount of stress possible. Once you’ve gotten to your goal, just recalculate your current maintenance at your new bodyweight and boom! You shouldn’t have weight issues ever again lol.

 

[CLASH]

Removing all forms of dairy with the exception of butter for a minimum of 2 weeks can be helpful. If struggling with weight gain, brain fog, constipation, low motivation etc., that can all be possible symptoms of the opiogenic effects of casomorphins in dairy. When I first took out dairy, I dropped 20lbs of what seemed to be water weight over the course of a few weeks, plus my libido, motivation and bowel
movements normalized to my pre dairy baseline.

I eat 2x as many carbs as protein minimum and I eat 4 meals a day. So I divide my total number of carbs by the 4 meals. I would say theres an element of individuality tho. Also, this was to determine a baseline amount of carbs for me when constructing a diet to start. I rarely follow exactly what I wrote. I often go on feel alot with the baseline in mind. However, I am not trying to lose weight and I have been eating consistently well for years at this point, so our contexts may differ.

 

[hallzo]

Removing all forms of dairy with the exception of butter for a minimum of 2 weeks can be helpful. If struggling with weight gain, brain fog, constipation, low motivation etc., that can all be possible symptoms of the opiogenic effects of casomorphins in dairy. When I first took out dairy, I dropped 20lbs of what seemed to be water weight over the course of a few weeks, plus my libido, motivation and bowel
movements normalized to my pre dairy baseline.

I eat 2x as many carbs as protein minimum and I eat 4 meals a day. So I divide my total number of carbs by the 4 meals. I would say theres an element of individuality tho. Also, this was to determine a baseline amount of carbs for me when constructing a diet to start. I rarely follow exactly what I wrote. I often go on feel alot with the baseline in mind. However, I am not trying to lose weight and I have been eating consistently well for years at this point, so our contexts may differ.

Hey clash, I’ve been following your protocol, and was wondering what why you’ve gone back on originally not recommending butter due to hormones and potential weight gain. I also see that you are more of an advocate for goat milk than cows milk, so is it due to availability or would you recommend goat butter over regular butter? Thanks. @CLASH

 

[CLASH]

Hey clash, I’ve been following your protocol, and was wondering what why you’ve gone back on originally not recommending butter due to hormones and potential weight gain. I also see that you are more of an advocate for goat milk than cows milk, so is it due to availability or would you recommend goat butter over regular butter? Thanks. @CLASH

It's not that I dont recommend butter, I just think the hormones may be an issue for some people. For example, eating a lot of butter gives me blackheads on my back. I personally dont care tho, the taste of butter is too good. My general stance on most things is there is a degree of personal tolerance to certain foods. Some people do great with diary, others, such as myself, dont.

The milk issue is in regards to the casein protein type. Many cows have A1 casein type which has a more potent opiate effect. Goats have an A2 casein protein type which has less of an opiate effect and tends to be more tolerable for most people in my experience. Since butter is largely devoid of the protein casein I'm personally less worried about whether it comes from a cow or a goat. Although goat butter has a unique taste due to its fatty acid composition and its often much more expensive.

 

[hallzo]

It's not that I dont recommend butter, I just think the hormones may be an issue for some people. For example, eating a lot of butter gives me blackheads on my back. I personally dont care tho, the taste of butter is too good. My general stance on most things is there is a degree of personal tolerance to certain foods. Some people do great with diary, others, such as myself, dont.

The milk issue is in regards to the casein protein type. Many cows have A1 casein type which has a more potent opiate effect. Goats have an A2 casein protein type which has less of an opiate effect and tends to be more tolerable for most people in my experience. Since butter is largely devoid of the protein casein I'm personally less worried about whether it comes from a cow or a goat. Although goat butter has a unique taste due to its fatty acid composition and its often much more expensive.

Thanks for your response! I don’t want to make this a clash q & a so I just have one more question. You say orange juice makes you cold, what other fruit juice would you recommend?

 

[Wagner83]

Hello m, @Cecilia L. :)

Here’s a pretty accurate TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) calculator: BMR Calculator

This one uses the Mifflin St. Jeor formula which is a more modern calculation for BMR (basal metabolic rate). There are others like the Katch McArdle, but that formula requires knowledge of what your bf % is.

Anyway, once youve figureD out what maintenance calories are after you’ve accounted for your Activity Level, you’ll then want to decrease these calories by 20-30%. 20% is a very modest rate of loss, 30% is about as extreme of a rate as you can go within the realm of keeping healthy. A sustainable weight loss program is one you can do consistently, and there are more nuances to a well laid out dieting strategy, but this should get you started.

The best macro split I’ve found for me and MOST others (but not all) is one that has you eating 0.8-1 gram of protein per pound of total bodyweight OR per lb of lean mass, eating 0.3-0.6 grams of fat per lb of total bodyweight OR per lb of lean mass (women usually tend to feel better eating at the higher end of that spectrum), and finally whatever calories are left after equating protein and fat are given to carbs.

So for me this would look like

Protein=4cals per gram
Carbs= 4cals per gram
Fat=9cals per gram

My Maintenance cals: 2760

Protein: 155lbs x 1 = 155g.
155 x 4= 620cals

Fat: 155 x 0.3 = 46.5g
46.5 x 9 = 418.5cals

620+418.5 = 1038.6cals

2760 - 1038.5 = 1721.5 cals

Carbs: 1721.5 / 4 = 430.3 grams of carbs.

Total macros:

Protein: 155g
Carbs: 430.3g
Fat: 46.5g

This is maintenance. If I wanted to find deficit cals I’d just begin the calculations with my calorie level I’m deciding to diet at. Hope this makes sense!

Edit: I should also add that losing fat is going to be a stressful thing that hinders metabolism to some degree regardless of how you approach it, up until you stop dieting. Physiologically speaking, stress IS what makes fat loss possible. But even though stress is unavoidable and albeit a necessity, you can mitigate the amount of stress you incur by managing how much fatigue you take on. Imo the best way to do this is by dieting in phases or cycles. Basically you diet for a period of time (say a month) lose weight for those 4ish weeks, and then recalculate your new maintenance cals based on your new lower bodyweight. Once you’ve been at maintenance for 2-4 weeks (known as a “diet break”) then you jump back into a deficit and lose more weight from where you’ve been maintaining by calculating another 20-30% calorie deficit off of your new bodyweight. If you keep rinsing and repeating this process, you should be able to attain the bodyweight you want with the most minimal amount of stress possible. Once you’ve gotten to your goal, just recalculate your current maintenance at your new bodyweight and boom! You shouldn’t have weight issues ever again lol.

Thanks for the advice.

Don't you think the ratios of macros matter as well in terms of how much fat is stored? The variations in the types of fat (e.g. mcts vs long chain fats vs mufas)?

When you say it is stressful, do you expect one to feel worse? Are there any examples you have first hand experience with, or which you witnessed happening to others (e.g. worse sleep, mood swings..)?

 

[CLASH]

Thanks for your response! I don’t want to make this a clash q & a so I just have one more question. You say orange juice makes you cold, what other fruit juice would you recommend?

No worries. I drink pineapple juice, white grape juice, concord grape juice, pomegranate juice, and sometimes lemonade. I also eat alot of chiquita frozen fruit bars including soursop, passion fruit, papaya, tamarind, and guava. Sometimes I also have frozen cherimoya pulp, or frozen mamey pulp. I also eat peaches jarred in sugar and water, and lots of dried persimmon.

 

[Jon]

Thanks for the advice.

Don't you think the ratios of macros matter as well in terms of how much fat is stored? The variations in the types of fat (e.g. mcts vs long chain fats vs mufas)?

When you say it is stressful, do you expect one to feel worse? Are there any examples you have first hand experience with, or which you witnessed happening to others (e.g. worse sleep, mood swings..)?

Welcome :)

Yes and no. I mean I just stick to the minimum amount of fat needed for hormonal function, which is easy to find with the info I gave. I think fat is the one that should be limited the most since it seems to interfere with the metabolism of every other macro (protein, carbs, and alcohol). The type of fat can definitely influence fat storage, for instance; saturated fat will quickly cause insulin resistance when eaten in a surplus caloric state. Pufa surprisingly has the opposite effect, and mufa can also help prevent insulin resistance it seems. There’s lots of debate as to which fat is the best, with extremists on all sides. I tend to gravitate towards primarily mufa since olive oil and Argan oils have so many health benefits beyond better insulin sensitivity and are low in stearate so it should be easier to avoid gal stones (something that seems to plague high saturated fat eaters). I also like avocado oil since it has such a high smoke point (500°f). What I’m saying is regarded as blasphemous around here but eh, it works for me lol. Ladies seem to need more fat in their diets than men from what I’ve noticed. Something around double what a man needs at an equal bodyweight or lean bodymass.

For protein I’d also keep it to the minimum requirement for your activity level since it with reliably raise cortisol the more you eat.

Carbs imo should be eaten as much as possible. Their conversation to fat calorie cost is pretty high, they’re directly anti cortisol, they’re thyroid agonistic, and actually improve glucose handling when eaten appropriately.

I think if most of your calories come from fat then it’s likely you will store more fat than a well diversified macro intake like I’ve suggested. I know I’ve seen a study floating around that showed athletes on a high fat diet compared to a high carb diet added more fat and less lean tissue than their counterparts with calories equated (I believe protein was equated too). All that being said, if your ratios aren’t exactly what I’d suggested I doubt you’ll run into much issue losing fat as long as a caloric deficit is kept :).

A RESOUNDING YES TO FEELING WORSE losing fat at appreciable rates sucks. It’s never fun, you’ll get cranky, you don’t recover from physical activity as quickly, sleep can suffer (and for most of us it does eventuall), libido drops. Not fun things, but imo totally worth it if your goal is to become more androgenic.

The worst of the effects of dieting usually come at the end of a dieting cycle (week 3 or 4) and may show up sooner if you’re already dieting from a leaner level OR are dieting at an extreme deficit. Even still, all folks will eventually feel the suck of a fat loss diet. This is why cycling your diet is so important! Only losing fat for 3-4 weeks straight at a time makes it so much easier to be consistent and not get burned out.

 

[Jib]

No worries. I drink pineapple juice, white grape juice, concord grape juice, pomegranate juice, and sometimes lemonade. I also eat alot of chiquita frozen fruit bars including soursop, passion fruit, papaya, tamarind, and guava. Sometimes I also have frozen cherimoya pulp, or frozen mamey pulp. I also eat peaches jarred in sugar and water, and lots of dried persimmon.

Recently dug up my old Omega juicer. It has a grinder attachment. You can use it to make sorbets using frozen fruit.

And it's great. The other day I ran a bunch of frozen pineapple/mango/papaya/guava through the juicer with the grinder attachment. You gotta mix it up a bit with a spoon but it ends up making the best sorbet anyone could ask for. You can get creative with what frozen fruits you make/buy too to keep it interesting.

Dried persimmon sounds amazing. Gonna check that out right now.

 

[Wagner83]

Welcome :)

Yes and no. I mean I just stick to the minimum amount of fat needed for hormonal function, which is easy to find with the info I gave. I think fat is the one that should be limited the most since it seems to interfere with the metabolism of every other macro (protein, carbs, and alcohol). The type of fat can definitely influence fat storage, for instance; saturated fat will quickly cause insulin resistance when eaten in a surplus caloric state. Pufa surprisingly has the opposite effect, and mufa can also help prevent insulin resistance it seems. There’s lots of debate as to which fat is the best, with extremists on all sides. I tend to gravitate towards primarily mufa since olive oil and Argan oils have so many health benefits beyond better insulin sensitivity and are low in stearate so it should be easier to avoid gal stones (something that seems to plague high saturated fat eaters). I also like avocado oil since it has such a high smoke point (500°f). What I’m saying is regarded as blasphemous around here but eh, it works for me lol. Ladies seem to need more fat in their diets than men from what I’ve noticed. Something around double what a man needs at an equal bodyweight or lean bodymass.

For protein I’d also keep it to the minimum requirement for your activity level since it with reliably raise cortisol the more you eat.

Thanks, these ideas of MUFAs being potentially more positive have been discussed by tyw and amazoniac (among others). Here for example, searching 'mufas', 'posted by' amazoniac/tyw should give more restults to those who are interested. I haven't tried avocado oil, I do have access to quality olive oil. The high smoking point is good news! Regarding saturated fats, the differences between goat / sheep dairy fat and cow dairy fat could play a role too.

Carbs imo should be eaten as much as possible. Their conversation to fat calorie cost is pretty high, they’re directly anti cortisol, they’re thyroid agonistic, and actually improve glucose handling when eaten appropriately.

I think if most of your calories come from fat then it’s likely you will store more fat than a well diversified macro intake like I’ve suggested. I know I’ve seen a study floating around that showed athletes on a high fat diet compared to a high carb diet added more fat and less lean tissue than their counterparts with calories equated (I believe protein was equated too). All that being said, if your ratios aren’t exactly what I’d suggested I doubt you’ll run into much issue losing fat as long as a caloric deficit is kept :).

Ok.

A RESOUNDING YES TO FEELING WORSE losing fat at appreciable rates sucks. It’s never fun, you’ll get cranky, you don’t recover from physical activity as quickly, sleep can suffer (and for most of us it does eventuall), libido drops. Not fun things, but imo totally worth it if your goal is to become more androgenic.

The worst of the effects of dieting usually come at the end of a dieting cycle (week 3 or 4) and may show up sooner if you’re already dieting from a leaner level OR are dieting at an extreme deficit. Even still, all folks will eventually feel the suck of a fat loss diet. This is why cycling your diet is so important! Only losing fat for 3-4 weeks straight at a time makes it so much easier to be consistent and not get burned out.

Given the minor differences in calories, it sounds like it's the crap which is stored and released which isn't acting very nice. I think Westside had commented on this (it's expected to feel worse). So you do seem to feel a general positive difference being leaner, that's good news if the results ain't just aesthetics. It would be important to not lower the metabolic rate for the long term and find that calories needs lower steadily with each cycle.

 

[Jon]

Thanks, these ideas of MUFAs being potentially more positive have been discussed by tyw and amazoniac (among others). Here for example, searching 'mufas', 'posted by' amazoniac/tyw should give more restults to those who are interested. I haven't tried avocado oil, I do have access to quality olive oil. The high smoking point is good news! Regarding saturated fats, the differences between goat / sheep dairy fat and cow dairy fat could play a role too.

Ok.

Given the minor differences in calories, it sounds like it's the crap which is stored and released which isn't acting very nice. I think Westside had commented on this (it's expected to feel worse). So you do seem to feel a general positive difference being leaner, that's good news if the results ain't just aesthetics. It would be important to not lower the metabolic rate for the long term and find that calories needs lower steadily with each cycle.

Could be toxins stored for some people, it follows logic to think that the more fat a person has, the longer they have to diet for, the more toxins they ridding themselves of, the more they will feel like crap til it’s over.

But I believe that a majority of the negative effects of dieting comes from hormonal settling points being disrupted. Since bodyfat is the largest producer of leptin in your body, it is highly disruptive when you lose fat since your satiety is based on leptin levels, especially if you have a large amount of fat you’re losing. Just like insulin levels, baseline leptin levels are generally higher in higher body fat individuals than their leaner counterparts. This creates a hormonal settling point that the body entrains to maintain, thus if you dip below this level or rise too high above it, the body will work to stabilize the amount of leptin within its “normal range”. Because people’s ratio of lean mass to fat mass is so damn unique to each person I believe this is why it’s very difficult to peg who will do well on a diet and who won’t. For instance, take a very overweight individual who also has plenty of lean mass underneath that, then take an overweight individual with the same height and weight stats as the former person but much less lean mass and you will see major differences in how losing fat affects there leptin levels and how they feel. And like I said before no matter who you are, dieting sucks eventually lol. A loss of bmr should be expected when losing lbs of fat, that’s just basic thermodynamics. A large portion of TDEE comes from daily NEAT, and generally the better someone feels, the more things they tend to do. I think this sort of positive feed back loop is common among people who go from overweight to fit because they tend to feel better and develop a higher baseline of fitness so their stamina increases which in turn makes them more apt to engage in any sort physical activity and for longer than usual. All this usually amounts to a higher maintenance calorie level, but often doesn’t really seem to be that much more activity than they did before. It’s amazing how just seemingly subtle increases in activity make a huge difference for TDEE, I read a study where they had a group of people they separated into fidgeters and non fidgeters and had them live in the lab for a few weeks. They found that fidgeters (leg bouncing, foot tapping, hand tapping) burn 150-350 calories (or something close to those numbers lol I can’t remember) more throughout the day than people who don’t! And that was just sitting around all day! Imagine what regular cleaning and vacuuming of your house will do? Or lots of regular yard work? I think that’s a huge account as to why people say “I’ve increased my baseline metabolism without adding weight” barring them fixing a clinical thyroid issue, or over stress issue since the sns dominance is probably more responsible for insulin resistance than anything else out there.