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High Protein Intake Increases Muscle Mass Even W/o Training

haidut

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We know that Ray recommends 80g+ of protein a day and says that ~120g should be enough even for the most active individuals. This study looked at what happens when you increase protein intake even more. There were 2 groups. The "normal" intake group consumed ~120g of protein a day and the high protein group consumed ~210g of protein per day. Both groups ate hypercaloric diets to induce weight gain. The high protein group lost fat mass and built muscle mass WITHOUT doing any training. In addition, their blood lipid parameters were normalized.
I find this interesting, since in my home country doctors often recommend new mothers and sick people consume 200g+ of protein a day as a way of maintaining optimal health since those people usually do not do much exercise. It looks like there is something valid about that recommendation...
Also, since some people on the forum have complained about gaining weight on Ray's diet, this may be an easy way to lose the extra weight - i.e. just up your protein intake even if you don't reduce fat and sugar.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2 ... 2.abstract
 
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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

How do we apply this? Going over three quarts of milk gets expensive, and I don't know if I'm comfortable eating tens of grams of protein concentrates, whether they have soy lecithin or not. Gelatin has an unbalanced profile (no muscle synthesis) and has lots of lead.
 

narouz

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

I tend to be bad at quantifying, measuring my diet.
Especially so with protein.
When I really started paying attention,
I found I wasn't getting enough.

For about the last 6 months or so I've been more conscious of it,
and get at least 80 grams per day, usually closer to 100g.
Mostly milk and cheese and gelatin.

I've noticed that my body tends to add muscle very easily now.
In the past I've been a big exerciser,
but for the last half-year or so I've hardly been exercising.
Sounds kinduv ridiculous,
but I've been doing like 10 push-ups per week. :shock:
Yeah, not per day--per week. :lol:

Even so, I've noticed that my arms and chest have increased muscle mass.
 

haidut

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Such_Saturation said:
How do we apply this? Going over three quarts of milk gets expensive, and I don't know if I'm comfortable eating tens of grams of protein concentrates, whether they have soy lecithin or not. Gelatin has an unbalanced profile (no muscle synthesis) and has lots of lead.

I am located in the USA and the store Trader Joe has a domestic low-fat parmesan cheese, which I can get pretty cheaply. A pound is about $8 and it is 40% protein. I have noticed that even at 120g of protein a day my arms and chest get very bulky with even 5 pushups. Meat can also help, especially lean ground beef or lamb. Strained organic yogurt can be found for a price of about $6 for 100g of protein inside it. There are ways to do it but you have to be resourceful. Gelatin to me is more like a dietary supplement than food for regular consumption. I use it mostly for stomach issues, sleep aid, joint treatment, etc.
 

BingDing

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

When I saw the subject line I was "yeah, that's me"; 80-100 g/day and I gained muscle, that was way more than I ever ate before Peat. But 210 g/day seems kind of ... extreme, insane, something. Not sure what Peat would say about that.

I use gelatin (collagen hydrolysate lately) with milk or meat or anything high in tryptophan, I'm pretty sure the combination is good in general and for building muscle. The Icelandic skyr yogurt Haidut posted about has been great, I can make a smoothie with 40-45 g of protein pretty easy. But doing that 4 or 5 times a day seems kind of ....

Such, what's that about high lead in gelatin???
 

BingDing

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Haidut, I reread your post and didn't mean to oppose the 200+ g/day you noted in your home country for certain individuals. And with Tara's recent threads about recovering from under eating, maybe that much protein would be beneficial. 800 cal/day of protein doesn't seem out of line for the calorie intake she was referring to.
 

superhuman

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Hmm but when increasing protein you have to increase carbs as well if not cortisol will go up and you will start to use protein as fuel etc etc
 

haidut

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

BingDing said:
Haidut, I reread your post and didn't mean to oppose the 200+ g/day you noted in your home country for certain individuals. And with Tara's recent threads about recovering from under eating, maybe that much protein would be beneficial. 800 cal/day of protein doesn't seem out of line for the calorie intake she was referring to.
Yes, it is usually recommended only for people considered medically compromised and the recommendation is not indefinite. Taking the protein with 200g+ of sugar would still be only around 1600 total calories leaving plenty of calories for fat as well.
 

haidut

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

superhuman said:
Hmm but when increasing protein you have to increase carbs as well if not cortisol will go up and you will start to use protein as fuel etc etc
Ray wrote somewhere that for special health cases, which the 200g+ daily protein would be, taking 400g of sugar is OK. That should be sufficient to balance the 200g of protein and still be well within the normal rage of caloric intake for an active person.
 
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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

The gelatin is made by cooking bones and stuff, for a very long time. Some lead and other similar metals like to seep into these kind of tissues as the animal grows.

I know heavy duty body builders don't start excreting nitrogen until like 300g a day... Maybe that would be too much because of the sulphur or the kidneys getting overworked.
 

superhuman

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Haidut: true but getting 150g-200g protein is hard since most of the rp protein sources comes w alot of carbs and or fat
 

tara

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Such_Saturation said:
The gelatin is made by cooking bones and stuff, for a very long time. Some lead and other similar metals like to seep into these kind of tissues as the animal grows.
I don't know about other places, but the local gelatine factory uses skins, not bones. Skins turns over by wearing out - I don't think it's likely to accumulate toxins at higher concentrations than the rest of the body?
 

Gl;itch.e

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

superhuman said:
Haidut: true but getting 150g-200g protein is hard since most of the rp protein sources comes w alot of carbs and or fat
I have no trouble getting a consistent 180-200g a day. But I do eat red meat everyday and supplement with some fairly unprocessed casein powder. I suppose the real issue is how many calories you have to play with. At 200g a day this isnt even 25% of my total caloric intake.
 

Philomath

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Re: High protein intake increases muscle mass even w/o train

Footnotes
↵1 Supported by an unrestricted grant of the Dutch Dairy Association. J.S.

The American Dairy Association is just a few miles north of me... Maybe I'll send them a copy of this report. I'm afraid the anti milk people will get dairy products banned some day.
 

Blinkyrocket

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What do you think ideal protein and carbs and fat would be for 3500 calories? In trying to gain weight and currently don't have access to skim milk so PUFA usually comes in at 6 grams, protein at 132g and carbs at 400g I'm just wondering if overdoing carbs produces serotonin since Ray peat has said a high carb meal produces serotonin.
 

Gl;itch.e

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I imagine that the "ideal" ratio of macro nutrients is going to be person specific and dependent on ones own physiology, energy expenditure etc. Weight gain is going to be mostly from excess calories rather than a specific macro. But some resistance exercise and a little extra protein never hurt!
 

Blinkyrocket

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Gl;itch.e said:
I imagine that the "ideal" ratio of macro nutrients is going to be person specific and dependent on ones own physiology, energy expenditure etc. Weight gain is going to be mostly from excess calories rather than a specific macro. But some resistance exercise and a little extra protein never hurt!
I thought so, I just asked the question because I forgot the real question I wanted to ask which is what protein sources are best to get as high as 210 (I won't go that high on account of not weighing that much) without going overboard on the antimetabolic amino acids, besides milk and cheese which I can't eat much of until I can get lower fat versions. IIRC Leucine is the amino acid responsible for insulin secretion and protein synthesis, but isolated amino acids behave differently than whole proteins so.... what to do?
 

Dean

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Blinkyrocket said:
Gl;itch.e said:
I imagine that the "ideal" ratio of macro nutrients is going to be person specific and dependent on ones own physiology, energy expenditure etc. Weight gain is going to be mostly from excess calories rather than a specific macro. But some resistance exercise and a little extra protein never hurt!
I thought so, I just asked the question because I forgot the real question I wanted to ask which is what protein sources are best to get as high as 210 (I won't go that high on account of not weighing that much) without going overboard on the antimetabolic amino acids, besides milk and cheese which I can't eat much of until I can get lower fat versions.

If you are in U.S, I recently discovered a high protein 1% cottage cheese by Friendship. It has cultured milk, but no gums, carrageenan, or added whey...so pretty clean. 32grams of protein per cup. It tastes great too. First low-fat cottage cheese I've found that both agrees with me and is actually enjoyable to eat.

You could also go with the Fage 0% fat strained, greek yogurt.
 

Gl;itch.e

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Blinkyrocket said:
Gl;itch.e said:
I imagine that the "ideal" ratio of macro nutrients is going to be person specific and dependent on ones own physiology, energy expenditure etc. Weight gain is going to be mostly from excess calories rather than a specific macro. But some resistance exercise and a little extra protein never hurt!
I thought so, I just asked the question because I forgot the real question I wanted to ask which is what protein sources are best to get as high as 210 (I won't go that high on account of not weighing that much) without going overboard on the antimetabolic amino acids, besides milk and cheese which I can't eat much of until I can get lower fat versions.
Well why are you worried about low fat versions? If you want to gain weight you need the calories too. I eat about 180-220ish grams of protein a day. Most of it comes from cheese, milk, casein powder, beef, gelatin, shrimp, fish. Best bet is to avoid the worst offenders like chicken which are really high in methionine, limit muscle meats somewhat and use gelatin to add more anti-inflammatory protein.

If you have access to a good brand of cottage cheese that'd be a good protein source that relatively low fat. I haven't got any good brands where I live (all full of gums like carrageenan) so I'm looking into making my own which seems pretty easy.
 

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