Blood Work After Using IdeaLabs Products

[Slaspa]

@goodandevil

I had good experience with Androsterone by now. And it helps with controlling estrogen conversion from DHEA (Pansterone).

DHT and T - yeah, absolutely. But, not available...

I was planing to start adding oral pregnenolone 10MG once or twice daily on top of 5-10mg DHEA Pregnenolone from Pansterone and see how it goes...

With Tyronene 1-2 drops daily, 5-15 MG Androsterone and 10-15mg Kuinone .

Hopefully oral doses of Pregnenolone will help with a bit Progesterone conversion.

So that my body stops using all other hormones for making cortisol and finally starts increasing androgens again.

Btw... Thanks for answering

 

[vulture]

Hello everyone!

I've been cruising around the forum for the last couple of months and really learned some great stuff.

I've also tried to incorporate as much as possible of Ray's advice regarding diet and supplements.

Then I discovered @haidut and his work.

As many of us here I'm also interested in increasing my rats androgen levels.
He trains in the gym and trying to build muscle, strength and also live as healthy life as possible. He's quite dedicated to all this.

He is 29 years old, 185xm high, around 86-87 kg, 15-16% bodyfat, bulking at the moment, been training sports as long as he can remember. Gym training the last 10-ish human years, more seriously last 3-4.

After reading about IdeaLabs products and reviews, testimonials from you guys, I decided to try some on him in hopes of increasing Testosterone, DHT, Thyroid, and lowering or holding under control Estrogen, Cortisol and all other "bad guys".

Tried Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone ,TyroMix, Tyronene.

Started with 1:1 ratio Pansterone Androsterone of 2 drops each per day and 10-15mg Kuinone. Felt something positive was happening.

Increased the doses up to 10MG of each Pansterone Androsterone, soon libido went down.
Solved that with adding TyroMix, 2-3 drops per day.

He felt good again.

Trained in the gym like a maniac.

And that was maybe the turned point...

He overtrained a little bit I think, cause he lost libido almost over night and started feeling beaten down and really tired. Sleep was getting worse, waking up tired in the morning ...

Probably cortisol related ... Too much and hard training, too much cortisol, too much Progesterone and DHEA usage for cortisol production and then game over. No raw materials for cortisol nor the other steroids.

Took a deload week. Started adding some pregnenolone cream on top of 10MG Pansterone and Androsterone , 15-30mg pregnenolone cream extra per day.

Felt a bit better.

The week after he stopped with pregnenolone cream and continued with just Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone and TyroMix.

After he started feeling little estrogenic (bloat, brain fog, difficult to concentrate, emotional...) he stopped with Pansterone and continued with just Androsterone up to 15MG, Kuinone and introduced Tyronene 2 drops per day.

Introducing Tyronene helped. Energy levels increased (cortisol probably went up a bit from it), some libido improvement also.

This all happened two weeks prior to taking blood.

So, he did blood work after just a couple of days of feeling better, after introducing Tyronene 2 drops per day, 15MG Androsterone and ~18mg Kuinone .

So, here are the results, first ever...


Cholesterol 5.79 mmol/L (<5.20)
HDL 1.17 mmol/L (>1.00)
Non HDL 4.62 mmol/L (<4.10)
LDL 4.32 mmol/L (<4.10)
Triglycerides 0.65 mmol/L (<1.70)
Atherosclerosis risk 3.7 (<3.00)
Risk factor 4.9 (<4.5)

ALT (SGPT) 49 U/L (<55)
AST (SGOT) 67 U/L (<34)
Alkaline phosphatase 88 U/L (40-150)
GAMA GT 24 U/L (12-64)

s-TSH 2.360 uIU/mL (0.400-4.000)
FT3 4.57 pmol/L (2.76-6.45)
FT4 13.6 pmol/L (11.5-22.7)

Cortisol morning 439 nmol/L (138-690)

Dopamine plasma 17 pg/ml (<100)
Serotonine 267 ug/L (50-220)

Vitamin 25-OH D total 116.8 nmol/L (75-250)

Estradiol 21.5 pg/mL (0-56)
Estradiol 78.9 pmol/L
FSH 4.4 mIU/ml (0.7-11)
LH 3.92 mIU/ml (0.8-7.6)
Prolactine 202 mIU/L (53-360)
Progesterone 0.88 nmol/L (0.86-2.9)
Progesterone 0.28 ng/ml (0.27-0.92)

Testosterone 8.91 nmol/L (5.54-25.20)
FREE Testosterone 10.96 pg/ml (7-22.70)
DHT 345.4 pg/ml (250-999)
SHBG 27 nmol/L (13-71)
DHEA-S 117 ug/dL (80-560)
DHEA 3.5 ng/mL (1.8-12.5)
Estrone E1 48 pg/mL (15-80)


As you can see Testosterone is low, so is DHT and Free Testosterone.

DHEA and DHEA-S also lowish.

I was surprised that Estradiol and Estrone E1 were on the lower end, I was expecting them to be higher.

SHBG - Ok.

Progesterone is also quite low. Maybe because he train hard and that his body is using too much Progesterone for making cortisol.

That's probably the reason for low DHEA and DHEA-S, I suppose?
And consequently low all other steroid hormones?

Morning cortisol seems ok...

Prolactine? It could be lower? What do you think?

FSH and LH?

Vitamin D?

Dopamine low, Serotonine high. What's the cause of that, what do you think?

I'm bulking at the moment and a lot of carbs on my 4 training days per week.
Maybe that's why?

Thyroid seems ok...

Liver enzymes are higher than expected...
Thoughts why?

Cholesterol high... Maybe because I'm trying to eat a lot of cholesterol rich food to increase steroid production.

Triglycerides are ok, so I suppose higher cholesterol is not such a big problem?

And Atherosclerosis risk is high. Why is that so, what do you think? (if Triglycerides are low)


I'm really interested in what you think and should I approach to all this.

Start with Pansterone again, slowly increasing the doses up to 15MG a day or?

Continue with Tyronene?

Maybe combine Tyronene 2 drops and 8-10 MG Pansterone with 15MG Androsterone and 15-20mg Kuinone?
Maybe try adding Stresanon for added Pregnenolone and to increase Progesterone? Or add 5 DHP?

What about Prolactine?

Serotonine? Maybe try Metergoline?



Ok guys... A looooong post, I know. Just wanted to cover everything.

Thanks in advance...

Thoughts?


@haidut

Bro, I think you have to be more careful with your rat, supplement things as isolated as possible to observe effects. Don't overdo with dosage. Once you found good effects on some supps, you may think about combining it...it's not "a bunch of good things" that if you mix 'em they're gonna do a lot of good things...some of them might be harmful depending on your circumstances

 

[Slaspa]

@vulture

Thanks for chiming in...

Japp, I agree.

But, combining these products in those doses shouldn't cause problems but quite the opposite.

I understand that there's a ceiling of good things they can do and backfires if one keeps increasing. I would like to find out that upper good limit and cruise there...

Also... Found some older threads about BCAA, Tyrosine, L phenylalanine combo to lower Serotonin.

Has anyone tried that and had success with lowering it?

 

[stsfut]

@vulture

Thanks for chiming in...

Japp, I agree.

But, combining these products in those doses shouldn't cause problems but quite the opposite.

I understand that there's a ceiling of good things they can do and backfires if one keeps increasing. I would like to find out that upper good limit and cruise there...

Also... Found some older threads about BCAA, Tyrosine, L phenylalanine combo to lower Serotonin.

Has anyone tried that and had success with lowering it?

Hi, any updates? I had similar labs. Low testosterone, dhea, progesterone despite mid-range LH and adequate cholesterol. I think that with inadequate thyroid, a form of LH resistance occurs. I have dealt with my own issues sort of crudely. I am now on TRT, HCG, thyroid. I feel good but would rather not be so medicated.

 

[stevrd]

@vulture

Thanks for chiming in...

Japp, I agree.

But, combining these products in those doses shouldn't cause problems but quite the opposite.

I understand that there's a ceiling of good things they can do and backfires if one keeps increasing. I would like to find out that upper good limit and cruise there...

Also... Found some older threads about BCAA, Tyrosine, L phenylalanine combo to lower Serotonin.

Has anyone tried that and had success with lowering it?

Taking these amino supplements, while good in theory are not practical for lowering serotonin. This is why Ray is not a fan of them because in isolation they can cause their own issues. A lot of people report that BCAAs, despite the brain serotonin lowering properties, actually makes people feel less motivated and more fatigued (which is exactly what one feels like when serotonin is high). So in theory it should work, but in reality, there are a whole host of other pathways that taking an excess of BCAAs or other isolated amino acids may affect that we don't yet know about. And even then, a lot of people feel nothing from taking these aminos, so there's that- a waste of money.

A lot of people here have made the right suggestions, focus on diet and lifestyle habits to improve hormones before taking a myriad of supplements. Supplements will not work if metabolism isn't in the right place or if cortisol is too high. Cortisol can be lowered with diet and habit changes. Eating frequent meals throughout the day, and ensuring you are getting enough sleep for example, can lower cortisol profoundly. Most people with hormone issues have excess cortisol as a root cause.

I actually think a lot of people are focusing on the wrong supplements for lowering serotonin/prolactin, etc... People don't often think of it, but one of the most basic and often neglected "supplement" is salt. Salt can decrease prolactin/serotonin/adrenaline/cortisol/aldostereone/renin/angiotensin. Calcium and magnesium have similar effects. Why not supplement with some safe minerals that in excess actually don't really cause any harm?

 

[vulture]

Hi, any updates? I had similar labs. Low testosterone, dhea, progesterone despite mid-range LH and adequate cholesterol. I think that with inadequate thyroid, a form of LH resistance occurs. I have dealt with my own issues sort of crudely. I am now on TRT, HCG, thyroid. I feel good but would rather not be so medicated.

Why do you take HCH on TRT? to keep testicles from shrinking? how long could you take HCG? I mean, can you be on TRT for 3 years while taking HCG and then just stopping and testicles are working just fine?

 

[stsfut]

Why do you take HCH on TRT? to keep testicles from shrinking? how long could you take HCG? I mean, can you be on TRT for 3 years while taking HCG and then just stopping and testicles are working just fine?

HCG acts like LH. There are LH receptors in testicles so HCG prevents shrinkage and also helps to convert cholesterol to pregnenolone. If I was to stop TRT, there is a chance that my pituitary wouldn’t be able to produce LH anymore. Best case scenario, it would take sometime for my natural LH production to ramp up. A drug called clomiphene helps to quicken this process although it is pretty anti-peat.

 

[benaoao]

Former “hardcore” lifter here.

Don’t be fooled. Training hard crushes you way more and at a much deeper level than the basic “calories in, calories out” surface that most lifters only care about. Your bloods are all over the place. That’s good. It means a lot.

Hormones won’t work. I’ve tried them obviously. They get you bigger stronger faster leaner and eventually you figure out that all those Instagram sensations and elite athletes are using something. Because natural hard training destroys you. Especially now that you aren’t 20yo anymore.

So the issue, and I know it all too well, is mental. You’ll have to accept toning your training down BIG TIME. Then your body will recover.

On the flipside, it’s rather easy to maintain muscle mass.

 

[Slaspa]

Can D Aspartic acid be taken for LH instead HCG?


Together with Metergoline for Prolactin control and Androsterone for Estrogen.

My rat has also experienced varicocele on its left testicle.

I'm doing bloods on him next week, so I'll know more and write everything that I did from last blood test.

Wondering about its estrogen levels because of occurring varicocele.

 

[vulture]

Can D Aspartic acid be taken for LH instead HCG?


Together with Metergoline for Prolactin control and Androsterone for Estrogen.

My rat has also experienced varicocele on its left testicle.

I'm doing bloods on him next week, so I'll know more and write everything that I did from last blood test.

Wondering about its estrogen levels because of occurring varicocele.

I'm thinking that stress increases aromatization and a bad enviroment and testicles (as far as I remember) can aromatize a lot, all that blood full of estrogen might end up ruining veins on it's way back. But that's just an idea.

I have a few threads (the last ones) relating to the issue and a few studies concerning HPTA, varicoceles affected testicle response to LH, etc...I'm planning dosing some T3 + HCG to see what it does to my rat. If it doesn't get my rat out of androgen deficency, I might start to think on TRT, I think it's a bad idea to keep myself that long running on stress hormones, it's being lots of years, not a way of living, rather die younger and feeling young than feeling ****88 up for the rest of my life

 

[vulture]

Can D Aspartic acid be taken for LH instead HCG?


Together with Metergoline for Prolactin control and Androsterone for Estrogen.

My rat has also experienced varicocele on its left testicle.

I'm doing bloods on him next week, so I'll know more and write everything that I did from last blood test.

Wondering about its estrogen levels because of occurring varicocele.

BTW, D Aspartic acid as long as I remember doesn't seem a good way to go, it stops being useful about one week later and can even be harmful

 

[Slaspa]

@vulture
Estrogen probably ,yes, as a cause of varicocele .

I'm seeing an urologist soon also.

Has anyone here had varicocele before and successfully recovered?
Specially varicocele embolization as a way of treatment...

Maybe taking DAA in cycles then? As 7-10days on then ~4 days off, then repeat...

 

[vulture]

@vulture
Estrogen probably ,yes, as a cause of varicocele .

I'm seeing an urologist soon also.

Has anyone here had varicocele before and successfully recovered?
Specially varicocele embolization as a way of treatment...

Maybe taking DAA in cycles then? As 7-10days on then ~4 days off, then repeat...

Cycling DAA is unknown to me
There were few claims of a few ones who got varicoceles and got "cured". One I remember is Nathan Hatch, who stated that 1200 to 800 IU of Vitamin E rectally solved a gut problem for him along with a small varicoceles.

I would be cautious with varicoceles surgery, and emphasize a need to check for the veins UP the testicles. It seems to me that sometimes urologist just embolize veins below when problems might start way up. Do your research on this: Varicocele is the root cause of BPH: Destruction of the valves in the spermatic veins produces elevated pressure which diverts undiluted testostero... - PubMed - NCBI

I got surgery and it was useless. You need to at least track issues way up the testicle. Maybe a doppler.

 

[Slaspa]

A visit to a specialist about this matter for sure, that's the first step.

I would like to avoid any type of surgery but don't know if it's reversible.

My last lab results already showed lower androgen levels. So maybe varicocele is the root cause.

Not sure if simply blocking estrogen and aromatase would solve the problem .

When you say that your surgery was pointless - what exactly do you mean? In what way pointless?
Like, they returned or didn't experience any improvement?

 

[vulture]

My last lab results already showed lower androgen levels. So maybe varicocele is the root cause.

I'm not sure about that...it might be a symptom of a more systematic disease, or an inflammed gut compressing the veins.

Surgery didn't solve the issue. Varicose veins remained and low androgens remained, and it's being about a year. Check for outcomes after surgery. Maybe you'll realize that for some subjects (might be interesting to know percentages) it didn't solve androgen problems.

I'm currently researching on hypogonadism related to hypothyroidism. Me and @TreasureVibe are pretty active in this matter. We were even thinking about creating a huge poll to check for common things along varicoceles sufferers: I'm pointing to chronic stress and/or excessive masturbation (maybe because of the stress) damaging the veins via excessive aromatization, but I think we need polls on this to gather more info, and also lab rats

 

[Slaspa]

I'm currently researching on hypogonadism related to hypothyroidism. Me and @TreasureVibe are pretty active in this

Count me in.

Hypogonadism and hypothyroidism is what my rats last lab results showed. Interested in solving all this...

Will report back with next lab results.

 

[vulture]

Problem is you are taking lots of supps and mostly within lab ranges. I would try to keep supps as isolated as possible. I would try T3 while checking temps and pulse and before/after labs. I'm curious if your cholesterol goes down only on T3 + Peating and if your androgens goes up.

 

[rawmeat]

OVER TRAINING is very dangerous; hence, your cortisol level is high and T levels are very low.

For muscle growth, I've gotten my strongest on 2 full body workouts per week. I workout for 1hr on Mondays and Thursdays. That's it! Yet, I've seen the most gains in this regime.

With a less stressful routine, you will optimize recovery and T levels which are the two most important aspects of gaining muscle. Monday is usually a heavier/strength based workout, and Thursdays are focused on volume/pump training.

 

[Slaspa]

Problem is you are taking lots of supps and mostly within lab ranges. I would try to keep supps as isolated as possible. I would try T3 while checking temps and pulse and before/after labs. I'm curious if your cholesterol goes down only on T3 + Peating and if your androgens goes up.

I take T3 sometimes... IdeaLabs product... But the dose of 8mg per drop is a bit to much and after a few days stress response becomes obvious. I need to find some pure alcohol to diluete it to 1 or 2mg per drop.

So, you would like my rat to take only T3 without Pansterone, Androsterone and Kuinone ?
Or add it to the mix like in that thread about raising androgens with them?

 

[benaoao]

OVER TRAINING is very dangerous; hence, your cortisol level is high and T levels are very low.

For muscle growth, I've gotten my strongest on 2 full body workouts per week. I workout for 1hr on Mondays and Thursdays. That's it! Yet, I've seen the most gains in this regime.

With a less stressful routine, you will optimize recovery and T levels which are the two most important aspects of gaining muscle. Monday is usually a heavier/strength based workout, and Thursdays are focused on volume/pump training.

Thank you for saying this. Fearing that this will be lost though, because people would much rather hunt for the unicorn magic pill instead of stopping the fire