Blood Work After Using IdeaLabs Products

Slaspa

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
44
Hello everyone!

I've been cruising around the forum for the last couple of months and really learned some great stuff.

I've also tried to incorporate as much as possible of Ray's advice regarding diet and supplements.

Then I discovered @haidut and his work.

As many of us here I'm also interested in increasing my rats androgen levels.
He trains in the gym and trying to build muscle, strength and also live as healthy life as possible. He's quite dedicated to all this.

He is 29 years old, 185xm high, around 86-87 kg, 15-16% bodyfat, bulking at the moment, been training sports as long as he can remember. Gym training the last 10-ish human years, more seriously last 3-4.

After reading about IdeaLabs products and reviews, testimonials from you guys, I decided to try some on him in hopes of increasing Testosterone, DHT, Thyroid, and lowering or holding under control Estrogen, Cortisol and all other "bad guys".

Tried Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone ,TyroMix, Tyronene.

Started with 1:1 ratio Pansterone Androsterone of 2 drops each per day and 10-15mg Kuinone. Felt something positive was happening.

Increased the doses up to 10MG of each Pansterone Androsterone, soon libido went down.
Solved that with adding TyroMix, 2-3 drops per day.

He felt good again.

Trained in the gym like a maniac.

And that was maybe the turned point...

He overtrained a little bit I think, cause he lost libido almost over night and started feeling beaten down and really tired. Sleep was getting worse, waking up tired in the morning ...

Probably cortisol related ... Too much and hard training, too much cortisol, too much Progesterone and DHEA usage for cortisol production and then game over. No raw materials for cortisol nor the other steroids.

Took a deload week. Started adding some pregnenolone cream on top of 10MG Pansterone and Androsterone , 15-30mg pregnenolone cream extra per day.

Felt a bit better.

The week after he stopped with pregnenolone cream and continued with just Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone and TyroMix.

After he started feeling little estrogenic (bloat, brain fog, difficult to concentrate, emotional...) he stopped with Pansterone and continued with just Androsterone up to 15MG, Kuinone and introduced Tyronene 2 drops per day.

Introducing Tyronene helped. Energy levels increased (cortisol probably went up a bit from it), some libido improvement also.

This all happened two weeks prior to taking blood.

So, he did blood work after just a couple of days of feeling better, after introducing Tyronene 2 drops per day, 15MG Androsterone and ~18mg Kuinone .

So, here are the results, first ever...


Cholesterol 5.79 mmol/L (<5.20)
HDL 1.17 mmol/L (>1.00)
Non HDL 4.62 mmol/L (<4.10)
LDL 4.32 mmol/L (<4.10)
Triglycerides 0.65 mmol/L (<1.70)
Atherosclerosis risk 3.7 (<3.00)
Risk factor 4.9 (<4.5)

ALT (SGPT) 49 U/L (<55)
AST (SGOT) 67 U/L (<34)
Alkaline phosphatase 88 U/L (40-150)
GAMA GT 24 U/L (12-64)

s-TSH 2.360 uIU/mL (0.400-4.000)
FT3 4.57 pmol/L (2.76-6.45)
FT4 13.6 pmol/L (11.5-22.7)

Cortisol morning 439 nmol/L (138-690)

Dopamine plasma 17 pg/ml (<100)
Serotonine 267 ug/L (50-220)

Vitamin 25-OH D total 116.8 nmol/L (75-250)

Estradiol 21.5 pg/mL (0-56)
Estradiol 78.9 pmol/L
FSH 4.4 mIU/ml (0.7-11)
LH 3.92 mIU/ml (0.8-7.6)
Prolactine 202 mIU/L (53-360)
Progesterone 0.88 nmol/L (0.86-2.9)
Progesterone 0.28 ng/ml (0.27-0.92)

Testosterone 8.91 nmol/L (5.54-25.20)
FREE Testosterone 10.96 pg/ml (7-22.70)
DHT 345.4 pg/ml (250-999)
SHBG 27 nmol/L (13-71)
DHEA-S 117 ug/dL (80-560)
DHEA 3.5 ng/mL (1.8-12.5)
Estrone E1 48 pg/mL (15-80)


As you can see Testosterone is low, so is DHT and Free Testosterone.

DHEA and DHEA-S also lowish.

I was surprised that Estradiol and Estrone E1 were on the lower end, I was expecting them to be higher.

SHBG - Ok.

Progesterone is also quite low. Maybe because he train hard and that his body is using too much Progesterone for making cortisol.

That's probably the reason for low DHEA and DHEA-S, I suppose?
And consequently low all other steroid hormones?

Morning cortisol seems ok...

Prolactine? It could be lower? What do you think?

FSH and LH?

Vitamin D?

Dopamine low, Serotonine high. What's the cause of that, what do you think?

I'm bulking at the moment and a lot of carbs on my 4 training days per week.
Maybe that's why?

Thyroid seems ok...

Liver enzymes are higher than expected...
Thoughts why?

Cholesterol high... Maybe because I'm trying to eat a lot of cholesterol rich food to increase steroid production.

Triglycerides are ok, so I suppose higher cholesterol is not such a big problem?

And Atherosclerosis risk is high. Why is that so, what do you think? (if Triglycerides are low)


I'm really interested in what you think and should I approach to all this.

Start with Pansterone again, slowly increasing the doses up to 15MG a day or?

Continue with Tyronene?

Maybe combine Tyronene 2 drops and 8-10 MG Pansterone with 15MG Androsterone and 15-20mg Kuinone?
Maybe try adding Stresanon for added Pregnenolone and to increase Progesterone? Or add 5 DHP?

What about Prolactine?

Serotonine? Maybe try Metergoline?



Ok guys... A looooong post, I know. Just wanted to cover everything.

Thanks in advance...

Thoughts?


@haidut
 

Sobieski

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2017
Messages
406
Stop with hormonal supplements altogether. Focus on diet and lifestyle first. I know this will in all likelihood be ignored but if your metabolism isn't fixed, the hormones you are taking probably aren't going to do their job in the first place. If your metabolism is messed up there's no way you're going to trick your body into health by taking hormones. Experiment with diet to find what works for you; the main caveat being keep PUFA intake low with a rich nutrient intake.
 
OP
S

Slaspa

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
44
Thanks for your answer @Sobieski

As I wrote, I adopted already all the Ray's advice about nutrition and low PUFA being one of them.

More precise, I'm doing that for quite some time, even before discovering Ray Peat.

Not just low PUFA, but proper nutrition in general followed with training.

Sometimes just, do to my nature of liking it to push to the limits everything in life, I do too much in the gym and suffer the consequences. Overtraining and everything that follows...

So, I don't think my metabolism is messed up. Neither that I have some low Testosterone problem ... I feel fine. Just did blood work to soon after that overreaching week, cause I couldn't move the date.

Just curious what's the best approach to get this numbers in balance.
 

haidut

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Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Hello everyone!

I've been cruising around the forum for the last couple of months and really learned some great stuff.

I've also tried to incorporate as much as possible of Ray's advice regarding diet and supplements.

Then I discovered @haidut and his work.

As many of us here I'm also interested in increasing my rats androgen levels.
He trains in the gym and trying to build muscle, strength and also live as healthy life as possible. He's quite dedicated to all this.

He is 29 years old, 185xm high, around 86-87 kg, 15-16% bodyfat, bulking at the moment, been training sports as long as he can remember. Gym training the last 10-ish human years, more seriously last 3-4.

After reading about IdeaLabs products and reviews, testimonials from you guys, I decided to try some on him in hopes of increasing Testosterone, DHT, Thyroid, and lowering or holding under control Estrogen, Cortisol and all other "bad guys".

Tried Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone ,TyroMix, Tyronene.

Started with 1:1 ratio Pansterone Androsterone of 2 drops each per day and 10-15mg Kuinone. Felt something positive was happening.

Increased the doses up to 10MG of each Pansterone Androsterone, soon libido went down.
Solved that with adding TyroMix, 2-3 drops per day.

He felt good again.

Trained in the gym like a maniac.

And that was maybe the turned point...

He overtrained a little bit I think, cause he lost libido almost over night and started feeling beaten down and really tired. Sleep was getting worse, waking up tired in the morning ...

Probably cortisol related ... Too much and hard training, too much cortisol, too much Progesterone and DHEA usage for cortisol production and then game over. No raw materials for cortisol nor the other steroids.

Took a deload week. Started adding some pregnenolone cream on top of 10MG Pansterone and Androsterone , 15-30mg pregnenolone cream extra per day.

Felt a bit better.

The week after he stopped with pregnenolone cream and continued with just Pansterone, Androsterone, Kuinone and TyroMix.

After he started feeling little estrogenic (bloat, brain fog, difficult to concentrate, emotional...) he stopped with Pansterone and continued with just Androsterone up to 15MG, Kuinone and introduced Tyronene 2 drops per day.

Introducing Tyronene helped. Energy levels increased (cortisol probably went up a bit from it), some libido improvement also.

This all happened two weeks prior to taking blood.

So, he did blood work after just a couple of days of feeling better, after introducing Tyronene 2 drops per day, 15MG Androsterone and ~18mg Kuinone .

So, here are the results, first ever...


Cholesterol 5.79 mmol/L (<5.20)
HDL 1.17 mmol/L (>1.00)
Non HDL 4.62 mmol/L (<4.10)
LDL 4.32 mmol/L (<4.10)
Triglycerides 0.65 mmol/L (<1.70)
Atherosclerosis risk 3.7 (<3.00)
Risk factor 4.9 (<4.5)

ALT (SGPT) 49 U/L (<55)
AST (SGOT) 67 U/L (<34)
Alkaline phosphatase 88 U/L (40-150)
GAMA GT 24 U/L (12-64)

s-TSH 2.360 uIU/mL (0.400-4.000)
FT3 4.57 pmol/L (2.76-6.45)
FT4 13.6 pmol/L (11.5-22.7)

Cortisol morning 439 nmol/L (138-690)

Dopamine plasma 17 pg/ml (<100)
Serotonine 267 ug/L (50-220)

Vitamin 25-OH D total 116.8 nmol/L (75-250)

Estradiol 21.5 pg/mL (0-56)
Estradiol 78.9 pmol/L
FSH 4.4 mIU/ml (0.7-11)
LH 3.92 mIU/ml (0.8-7.6)
Prolactine 202 mIU/L (53-360)
Progesterone 0.88 nmol/L (0.86-2.9)
Progesterone 0.28 ng/ml (0.27-0.92)

Testosterone 8.91 nmol/L (5.54-25.20)
FREE Testosterone 10.96 pg/ml (7-22.70)
DHT 345.4 pg/ml (250-999)
SHBG 27 nmol/L (13-71)
DHEA-S 117 ug/dL (80-560)
DHEA 3.5 ng/mL (1.8-12.5)
Estrone E1 48 pg/mL (15-80)


As you can see Testosterone is low, so is DHT and Free Testosterone.

DHEA and DHEA-S also lowish.

I was surprised that Estradiol and Estrone E1 were on the lower end, I was expecting them to be higher.

SHBG - Ok.

Progesterone is also quite low. Maybe because he train hard and that his body is using too much Progesterone for making cortisol.

That's probably the reason for low DHEA and DHEA-S, I suppose?
And consequently low all other steroid hormones?

Morning cortisol seems ok...

Prolactine? It could be lower? What do you think?

FSH and LH?

Vitamin D?

Dopamine low, Serotonine high. What's the cause of that, what do you think?

I'm bulking at the moment and a lot of carbs on my 4 training days per week.
Maybe that's why?

Thyroid seems ok...

Liver enzymes are higher than expected...
Thoughts why?

Cholesterol high... Maybe because I'm trying to eat a lot of cholesterol rich food to increase steroid production.

Triglycerides are ok, so I suppose higher cholesterol is not such a big problem?

And Atherosclerosis risk is high. Why is that so, what do you think? (if Triglycerides are low)


I'm really interested in what you think and should I approach to all this.

Start with Pansterone again, slowly increasing the doses up to 15MG a day or?

Continue with Tyronene?

Maybe combine Tyronene 2 drops and 8-10 MG Pansterone with 15MG Androsterone and 15-20mg Kuinone?
Maybe try adding Stresanon for added Pregnenolone and to increase Progesterone? Or add 5 DHP?

What about Prolactine?

Serotonine? Maybe try Metergoline?



Ok guys... A looooong post, I know. Just wanted to cover everything.

Thanks in advance...

Thoughts?


@haidut

AST is high and it usually rises when people overtrain as AST is expressed in muscles as well. The fact that ALT and especially GGT (very sensitive liver-specific biomarker) are in range pretty much confirms that the AST is not related to liver issues. So, I would tone the training down a bit. T, free T, and DHT are in range (not low) but could be better.
Serotonin is high, though not in the range where it becomes really concerning. How is your digestion and mood? With elevated serotonin I would not expect very high androgens as they are inversely correlated.
 

Luckytype

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
933
You have taken so many things at one time its going to be really difficult to dissect the results and get an idea of whats been inflated and what your baseline is.

What are your mornings like temp, wood, energywise?
 
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S

Slaspa

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
44
Thank you for your answer @haidut

Glad to hear that about the liver. Was a bit worried...

What about the higher cholesterol?

Vitamin D could be higher or...?

Regarding baseline low Progesterone...
I'm pretty sure that training is the main cause of this.
Would it be a possible solution to take pregnenolone (Oral? Cream? StressNon?) to increase it? Combined with Pansterone?

Also, by increasing Progesterone, Serotonine should go down? Maybe try Metergoline?

Maybe some nicotine gum for Dopamine and Serotonine also?

Thank you one more time for answering Dr Mr SC PhD Haidut :-D
 
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Slaspa

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Feb 11, 2018
Messages
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@Luckytype

Thanks for dropping in...

Yes, true, a lot of them...
But started with just Pansterone and Androsterone and assessed along the way, like many guys here.
There's no one dose or protocol that fits all and that's why I did trial and error by feeling.

As I wrote, I felt better and better until I overreached in the gym. Then went downhill...

Morning temperature quite good ,no problems with that.

Energy levels stabilizing, especially after introducing T3 Tyronene .
Last week and the week before much worse.

Morning wood... Not the best. Getting better by the day, but not quite there as it should be.

So, all this points to training related issues.

I'm just curious how to speed up recovery from this and start increasing androgens again.
 
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Slaspa

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Messages
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@haidut

Digestion ok, not any problems.

Mood... Quite good also. Joking around with everybody, like usual.
Laughing...

Maybe just lacking focus, determination and the will of committing to things like before. It's like I miss that "drive" feeling of wanting to crush it.
Serotonine and Dopamine , I guess.

That's why I would like to solve that disbalance also.
 
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Slaspa

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Messages
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@Wagner83

Japp, but 15MG Androsterone only for the last 10 days or so.

I started with 15MG Androsterone 3-4 days before the bloods.

High Serotonin... Yeah, maybe. Not helping obviously...
I'm curious about that also...
 
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S

Slaspa

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Messages
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@Wagner83

Exactly - nothing strange there.

I'm aware of consequences of dieting to such a low bodyfat levels.
I'm honestly not interested at all in achieving 4.5% bodyfat like in the study. Not even close...

But, I am interested in keeping my androgen levels as high as possible and building muscle, strength.
All this in a goal of being healthy and feeling the best I can, on all levels.

Aren't we all?

That's why we're here, I believe, on this forum.

Honestly, I'm not very genetically gifted regarding my goals as described so that's why I'm on this "quest" of making it myself in my own way.

Adopting Ray's advices and introducing @haidut supplements being a few...

Thanks for your reply @Wagner83
 

Wagner83

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I meant that calories appear to be particularly important, you push yourself with exercise and also (too?) big doses of hormones, so that could play a part in how you feel. Generally speaking having too many confounding factors at once makes life more difficult.
About serum serotonin levels:
Serum Serotonin Abnormality in Depression
 
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Slaspa

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@Wagner83

Believe me when I say, I eat a lot, so calories are not the problem.

I do train hard also for the reasons written before... I recover well also from training to training.

But, I have a tendency to push it hard for too long and that costs me sometimes.

I always strive to learn and improve from my "mistakes" .

That's why I'm here - to learn. Especially from you guys who are in this "game" longer then me.
So, thank you for responding again...

Your opinion then is that I shouldn't be worried about higher Serotonin and not trying to lower it?
Nor to try upping Dopamine?


Maybe higher Serotonin is not such a bad thing to have in regards of mood but as @haidut wrote - it's inversely correlated with androgens. And low Dopamine is not helping either. Neither the very low Progesterone.

Those are the reasons why I would like to up the Progesterone and by that lower some Prolactine and Serotonin, also keep estrogen and cortisol under control - to achieve and keep higher levels of androgens.

And asking and searching for advice here...
 

Wagner83

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I think Ray associated the catabolism of heavy training with serotonin, of course quality and speedn of digestion still matter a lot. I have no idea of the relevancy of blood serotonin, the study I posted claims that it's rather irrelevant and yet the ssri they used increased serotonin in the blood/serum. I think Travis has made posts on how the most important thing was tryptophan as it crosses the BBB and converts into serotonin in the brain, but don't quote me on that I'd need to search the posts.
 

kondevantoni

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TSH is high, get it under 1.0 mU/l, maybe try Tyromax, for some people synthetic dont work. Probably thats why cholesterol is not used properly. Check morning temps and pulse.
 
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Slaspa

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@Wagner83

Digestion is on point, also.

So, maybe just try focusing on Dopamine? Some L tyrosine? I already take it...

@kondevantoni

Thanks for dropping in...

Shouldn't T3 also help with using more of and lowering cholesterol?

Morning temp and pulse ok. After I take caffeine I get colder hands.

Don't you guys think that the low Progesterone is the real thing that should be addressed? By taking pregnenolone 30-50mg a day? With 5-15mg DHEA a day. Spread during the day...

I'm thinking if I up it then everything else should fall in line.
 
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Slaspa

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@kondevantoni

I agree, of course.

In referring to my results - low DHEA and DHEA-S, same as androgens. For that reason I thought to try more DHEA. With Androsterone, not to overdo with estrogen turnover.

And try and see... Watch how I'll react and feel.

But, I ask for advice...
 

goodandevil

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@Wagner83

Japp, but 15MG Androsterone only for the last 10 days or so.

I started with 15MG Androsterone 3-4 days before the bloods.

High Serotonin... Yeah, maybe. Not helping obviously...
I'm curious about that also...
I think androsterone sucks. It's like ray said: safe enough to try in degenerative brain disease. I would keep the pansterone and drop the androsterone. I've had great success with DHT and micronized testosterone in vitamin e, as ray says. Androsterone causes a profound anxiety reaction for me, joint problens, &c.
 

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