Where To Turn Next

[Vita3]

Jenny,

Yes I added something to it, but forgot now :)

Another thing it is costly, you need a lot potatoes to make broth and it takes time to do it, you need a juicer or a good blender.

However I do agree Nstocks can try it.Hope it will work.

I would also recommend to eat enough calories.

 

[Jennifer]

Potato juice!

No I haven't tried it yet - last thing I remember about it was taking a few KG of potatoes and cooking them for a long time. It's something I will try but it's only a supplement so I still need to find something to eat! Your process sounds like it would go down easily. I considered making bone broth again but gelatine upsets my stomach

Do you drink it on an empty stomach, does it matter when it's consumed?

Yes, I definitely don't see it as a main calorie source. In your case, I see it more as therapeutic like a bone broth. I personally use it as my main protein source, but I don't count it towards my total daily calories. I honestly wouldn't even know how to figure that out given the starch is removed. The goal would be that you see improvements fairly soon and your digestion of other foods improves to the point that you no longer need to consume it if you don't want to.

I usually drank it throughout the day like you would tea or before heavier meals, but that was only to avoid the sloshing/churning I would get in my gut at the time. If you find you do well having it with your meals, great! You can even use it as a base for soups and stews if you find you enjoy and digest them well? Ripe fruit has always digested the best for me so for soups and stews, I used a lot of non-sweet fruits like summer squash. I also used a lot of mushrooms as these digest well for me, too. Do you have a general sense of what types of food you've always had an easy time digesting?

 

[Nstocks]

Is it normal for the potato pulp and juice to turn red? I would put it down to oxidation but just wanted to check!

 

[Nstocks]

Juice (raw) is in the fridge but I think my 100 micron nylon filter bag got most of the starch out... The liquid is almost black! Something seems iffy here

 

[Jennifer]

My potato pulp always turns a pink color due to what I suspect is oxidation, yes.

Even after sitting on the counter for 15+ minutes while working in batches to blend and strain the potato pulp, the juice has never turned black. However, if I haven't added any of the collards or herbs in the cooking process, it does turn a dark amber/coffee color after I cook and filter it.

The only thing I can think of is maybe your potatoes weren't the freshest and so they oxidized extremely fast? I once had a jar of the cooked potato juice that sat in the fridge for two weeks turn black. I assumed it was from oxididation, sort of like when you stick ripe bananas in the freezer to prevent them from spoiling and their skins turn black.

Edit: Now that I think about it, we are rupturing the potatoes' cells when blending/juicing them and this most likely is releasing enzymes like oxidase (?) that cause the juice to darken?

 

[Nstocks]

I've added a load of herbs and some salt, let it simmer for 30 minutes and passed it through a 100 micron mesh, then filtered twice through coffee papers.

It smells a lot better than it taste - I think it needs more salt and possible more herbs.

Half a cup a day should work for me, until I made it taste better. 5KG of potatoes made approx. 700ml of liquid so that should last 4 days or so, unless I add it to store-bought soup until I go shopping and make my own.

 

[Jennifer]

LOL The taste was one reason I started adding a variety of mushrooms. They add an anti-microbial element, but also a deep beefy flavor. I would normally add onions and garlic, but I was trying to keep the broth as non-irritating as possible to allow my gut to heal.

You extracted about the same amount of juice that I've been getting. I have a hydraulic press with 2 tons of pressure that I bought a few years back to use with my vitamix as an economical Norwalk and that extracted quite a bit more juice, but the thing weighs over half my body weight so it's too heavy for me to lug up from the basement multiple times a week. I just ordered a Breville 850 watt centrifugal juicer in hopes that it will yield a similar amount of juice.

 

[Nstocks]

I'm probably going to make a huge batch of soup this weekend, 25KG of potatoes are quite cheap and the rest is fairly safe vegetables and herbs.

I take it you blend the mushrooms into the juice? How long have you been drinking this and how long did it take to feel anything from it?

 

[tara]

My couple of minor attempts at potato juice turned black quickly too. As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with the spuds themselves.

 

[Nstocks]

post 119378 My couple of minor attempts at potato juice turned black quickly too. As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with the spuds themselves.

I think I read some time ago that it is from oxidation... This was when I was looking at the differences of a masticating juicer over centrifugal and quicker oxidation.

 

[SQu]

I've never had my juice go black. Mine is the mastication kind.

 

[Jennifer]

post 119321 I'm probably going to make a huge batch of soup this weekend, 25KG of potatoes are quite cheap and the rest is fairly safe vegetables and herbs.

I take it you blend the mushrooms into the juice? How long have you been drinking this and how long did it take to feel anything from it?

Yeah, I simmer the mushrooms with the potato juice and then strain them out, unless I'm making a veggie soup and then I'll leave them in there.

My gut had become so bad that I would get reactions from food within 15 minutes of consuming any. They would show up as gut pain, brain fog, a rash and pustules on my face. The first day I had the broth, the residual rash I had went away in about a half an hour so I knew it was healing or in the very least, non-irritating.

It took about a week for all symptoms to vanish, I think. I also avoided my trigger foods during that time. Bone broth only seemed to worsen the symptoms so I think the potato juice is a great substitute for those whose digestion and gut inflammation are so severe.

 

[Jennifer]

I knew about the oxidation from centrifugal juicing versus masticating but I figured since I was cooking the juice anyway, it was of little importance. I got the centrifugal for its speed, lack of pulp in the finished product and ease of cleanup, but now I wonder if I should of stuck with a masticating juicer. :?

Do any of you happen to know if the keto acids in the juice are affected by heat and oxidation or am I over thinking things again?

 

[brandonk]

This claims that the centrifugaluicer reduces enzyme activity in juice.
http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/wp-conte ... n-2007.pdf

But no mention of its effect on ketoacids (and I would guess, ketoacids would not be affected).

 

[James IV]

Hey man. I just read your whole thread, and I feel for you. Sounds like life is tough right now.

I want to offer some ideas that are possibly different than others have offered. I think you need to stop trying to be "healthy." What I mean by that is let go of the idea of nutritious or non nutritious foods. I propose the idea of energy filled vs energy drained foods. By that I mean foods that are freshly prepared vs foods that have a shelf life. If something had been modified to be resistant to spoilage (bacteria), it is also going to be resistant to digestion by you. Other than that I would let go of all of your ideas of what is healthy vs unhealthy, and just eat delicious variety filled meals, of whatever you are craving. Don't force yourself to eat, but also don't dismiss food because you believe it may not be "real" or "peat approved" or whatever. If it's fresh and delicious, eat it.
Health is about sufficiency. Sufficincy of energy, and sufficiency of nutrients. The majority of health issues come from deficiency. Pounding you body with crazy amounts of a few different foods is a good way to create a deficiency in other places, regardless of what cronometer says. I think the reductionist approach to nutrition is a poor tactic. You want as much variety as possible, your body will sort out what needs to go where. You need food that makes your brain happy, the kind of food that give you warm and fuzzies. Make each meal a mini thanksgiving. In fact I would suggest eating the majority of your meals from restaurants or takeout for a few weeks. With the flavor/texture/ingredient varieties, these tend to be very stimulating and nourishing. Don't worry about macros, or calcium ratios, or PUFA content, or any of that "health" chatter. Just think, what would be delicious right now, and go get it! Bacon egg and cheese omelette with buttered Muffins and coffee with cream and sugar, yum. Pizza with a Coke and a cookie, yum. Burrito with horchata and a churro, yum. Kung pao chicken and spring rolls, yum. Cheeseburger with fries and a shake, yum.
Just smell, taste, chew, enjoy your meal. Maybe even eat at the restaurant around the other people. Don't stuff yourself, just satisfy yourself. You can alway eat again later, and you mught have totally different craving later.

This may go against what many feel is a "ray peat diet," but I don't feel there is such a thing. You need to feed your metabolism in order to be healthy. Plain and simple.
I'm telling you this because I have been where you are. I thought the answer lie on in finding the perfect diet. In my case it did not. In fact the harder I tried, the sicker I got. When I stopped looking at food as good or bad, and stopped trying to find the answer from others, the answer became obvious. I was hungry. I no longer look at food as good or bad, I just look at it as energy filled, or energy drained, and that has literally saved my life.

Best wishes on your journey.

 

[Jennifer]

post 119635 This claims that the centrifugaluicer reduces enzyme activity in juice.
http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/wp-conte ... n-2007.pdf

But no mention of its effect on ketoacids (and I would guess, ketoacids would not be affected).

Thanks, Brandon! :)

That's actually the same comparison guide I found a few years back that made me decide on a separate grinding and hydraulic press for juicing. I even tried getting an old Norwalk grinder from the 50s off of eBay. They used to make the grinder and press separate back then.

Anyhow, I figured the long simmering would reduce enzymes anyway so it wouldn't matter much? You're probably right about the keto acids not being affected. I imagine Ray would of taken that into consideration when recommending the potato juice be cooked.

 

[Zachs]

post 119671 Hey man. I just read your whole thread, and I feel for you. Sounds like life is tough right now.

I want to offer some ideas that are possibly different than others have offered. I think you need to stop trying to be "healthy." What I mean by that is let go of the idea of nutritious or non nutritious foods. I propose the idea of energy filled vs energy drained foods. By that I mean foods that are freshly prepared vs foods that have a shelf life. If something had been modified to be resistant to spoilage (bacteria), it is also going to be resistant to digestion by you. Other than that I would let go of all of your ideas of what is healthy vs unhealthy, and just eat delicious variety filled meals, of whatever you are craving. Don't force yourself to eat, but also don't dismiss food because you believe it may not be "real" or "peat approved" or whatever. If it's fresh and delicious, eat it.
Health is about sufficiency. Sufficincy of energy, and sufficiency of nutrients. The majority of health issues come from deficiency. Pounding you body with crazy amounts of a few different foods is a good way to create a deficiency in other places, regardless of what cronometer says. I think the reductionist approach to nutrition is a poor tactic. You want as much variety as possible, your body will sort out what needs to go where. You need food that makes your brain happy, the kind of food that give you warm and fuzzies. Make each meal a mini thanksgiving. In fact I would suggest eating the majority of your meals from restaurants or takeout for a few weeks. With the flavor/texture/ingredient varieties, these tend to be very stimulating and nourishing. Don't worry about macros, or calcium ratios, or PUFA content, or any of that "health" chatter. Just think, what would be delicious right now, and go get it! Bacon egg and cheese omelette with buttered Muffins and coffee with cream and sugar, yum. Pizza with a Coke and a cookie, yum. Burrito with horchata and a churro, yum. Kung pao chicken and spring rolls, yum. Cheeseburger with fries and a shake, yum.
Just smell, taste, chew, enjoy your meal. Maybe even eat at the restaurant around the other people. Don't stuff yourself, just satisfy yourself. You can alway eat again later, and you mught have totally different craving later.

This may go against what many feel is a "ray peat diet," but I don't feel there is such a thing. You need to feed your metabolism in order to be healthy. Plain and simple.
I'm telling you this because I have been where you are. I thought the answer lie on in finding the perfect diet. In my case it did not. In fact the harder I tried, the sicker I got. When I stopped looking at food as good or bad, and stopped trying to find the answer from others, the answer became obvious. I was hungry. I no longer look at food as good or bad, I just look at it as energy filled, or energy drained, and that has literally saved my life.

Best wishes on your journey.

This really only works with young anorexic individuals. Someone who has developed an intestinal disorder or hormone disorder won't find relief from just eat an excess of calories from a variety of foods. The body may be able to sort out vitamins and minerals but it will still have to deal with the inflammatory aminos, pufa, toxins and additives. Over time, these will burden the liver, irritate the gut, blunt thyroid production, spike cortisol, etc.

A surplus if calories, aminos, minerals and vitamins is without a doubt needed to heal which is where I think Nstock's is having the most trouble but I doubt highly that just going to a buffet three times a day is the cure.

I think the most appropriate route is to burden the body as little as possible while flooding it with nutrients. Nstocks does seem to have an issue with healthy vs unhealthy which might be detrimental, remember table sugar might be all it takes to ramp thyroid production but id one thinks table sugar is unhealthy, they will never really try it.

Nstocks, I know you so I know you'd never give the restaurant idea a real go but I do think it has merit and i have told you many times that I think you don't get enough calories. What are you eating exactly besides this potato juice?

 

[Nstocks]

post 119671 Hey man. I just read your whole thread, and I feel for you. Sounds like life is tough right now.

I want to offer some ideas that are possibly different than others have offered. I think you need to stop trying to be "healthy." What I mean by that is let go of the idea of nutritious or non nutritious foods. I propose the idea of energy filled vs energy drained foods. By that I mean foods that are freshly prepared vs foods that have a shelf life. If something had been modified to be resistant to spoilage (bacteria), it is also going to be resistant to digestion by you. Other than that I would let go of all of your ideas of what is healthy vs unhealthy, and just eat delicious variety filled meals, of whatever you are craving. Don't force yourself to eat, but also don't dismiss food because you believe it may not be "real" or "peat approved" or whatever. If it's fresh and delicious, eat it.
Health is about sufficiency. Sufficincy of energy, and sufficiency of nutrients. The majority of health issues come from deficiency. Pounding you body with crazy amounts of a few different foods is a good way to create a deficiency in other places, regardless of what cronometer says. I think the reductionist approach to nutrition is a poor tactic. You want as much variety as possible, your body will sort out what needs to go where. You need food that makes your brain happy, the kind of food that give you warm and fuzzies. Make each meal a mini thanksgiving. In fact I would suggest eating the majority of your meals from restaurants or takeout for a few weeks. With the flavor/texture/ingredient varieties, these tend to be very stimulating and nourishing. Don't worry about macros, or calcium ratios, or PUFA content, or any of that "health" chatter. Just think, what would be delicious right now, and go get it! Bacon egg and cheese omelette with buttered Muffins and coffee with cream and sugar, yum. Pizza with a Coke and a cookie, yum. Burrito with horchata and a churro, yum. Kung pao chicken and spring rolls, yum. Cheeseburger with fries and a shake, yum.
Just smell, taste, chew, enjoy your meal. Maybe even eat at the restaurant around the other people. Don't stuff yourself, just satisfy yourself. You can alway eat again later, and you mught have totally different craving later.

This may go against what many feel is a "ray peat diet," but I don't feel there is such a thing. You need to feed your metabolism in order to be healthy. Plain and simple.
I'm telling you this because I have been where you are. I thought the answer lie on in finding the perfect diet. In my case it did not. In fact the harder I tried, the sicker I got. When I stopped looking at food as good or bad, and stopped trying to find the answer from others, the answer became obvious. I was hungry. I no longer look at food as good or bad, I just look at it as energy filled, or energy drained, and that has literally saved my life.

Best wishes on your journey.

Yeah, I got over all that "health" stuff years ago with the introduction to Matt Stone. I don't have any problem with McDonalds anymore or eating out, but that happens a few times a year. I KNOW that if I keep eating things like McDonalds, I just get worse skin and my digestion takes another hit. It's strange, because I've been under eating (again) for the past two days I've consumed wheat (crackers and cookies) and I feel OK. Well, I feel like s*** - tired, dry skin, even less energy but my stomach feels OK. Maybe all those mastic gum pills have done something? Or, it's because I'm on low calories again.

Often I think of myself as part of the "normal" society, thinking about people who just eat whatever and have none or very few consequences. Just eat the damn food and get on with life. It's a good idea but it won't stick with me because soon enough I'll get sick again.

I can say for sure that I no longer worry about what nutrients I'm missing or things like that. I've stopped searching for everything because it's "healthy". That may not seem true because I'm on this forum and not outside eating, living, but the reasons are too painful to go over again.

 

[Nstocks]

This really only works with young anorexic individuals. Someone who has developed an intestinal disorder or hormone disorder won't find relief from just eat an excess of calories from a variety of foods. The body may be able to sort out vitamins and minerals but it will still have to deal with the inflammatory aminos, pufa, toxins and additives. Over time, these will burden the liver, irritate the gut, blunt thyroid production, spike cortisol, etc.

A surplus if calories, aminos, minerals and vitamins is without a doubt needed to heal which is where I think Nstock's is having the most trouble but I doubt highly that just going to a buffet three times a day is the cure.

I think the most appropriate route is to burden the body as little as possible while flooding it with nutrients. Nstocks does seem to have an issue with healthy vs unhealthy which might be detrimental, remember table sugar might be all it takes to ramp thyroid production but id one thinks table sugar is unhealthy, they will never really try it.

Nstocks, I know you so I know you'd never give the restaurant idea a real go but I do think it has merit and i have told you many times that I think you don't get enough calories. What are you eating exactly besides this potato juice?

You do know me, very well and what you said makes perfect sense. See my above reply for eating out etc. I'm quite distant to the person I was when we 'met' - I don't search for every nutrient anymore like some vegan woman would (not to disrespect them, it's just an image I had of myself from years ago...) some days I just don't care about what I eat or how I feel, like when I spent 9 hours pressure washing our drive way yesterday (with a 10 minute break when the mail arrived). I sometime get into days where I work non stop, like on my aquarium or my portfolio and just ignore life. This is what led to extreme dieting when I was at University, at which point I was 4 stone (55lbs) lighter than I am today at 13 stone (182lbs) at 6'2" 25 years. I think I'm still torturing my body for how it feels and not eating usually helps with that because eating is often painful. (this isn't psychological either)

Let's see; today I've been up for 4 hours and had a tin of minestrone soup, 1 cup of lemon and ginger tea and some jelly babies. So, perhaps 400 calories? I don't have much appetite today/this week so later I'll probably have a banana (that's not fully ripe yet), some biscuits (cookies) and later a chicken curry which we make every Friday using breast meat and a jar of sauce in a slow cooker. Add some apple juice and and I'm probably at under 2000 calories, but I don't track so don't know fore sure.

 

[Jennifer]

I promise I won't yammer on after this, but I wanted to say that I think that's great that you were able to put weight back on, Nstocks. That in itself is a commendable improvement. I'm sure it's no ones intention to write off your current experiences with food as nothing more than the continued restrictive/disordered eating mindset you had in the past. Sure, for some that may be the case, but so are the physical symptoms that are the aftermath of an atrophied system. Pain from eating = less eating and the cycle continues, but for very different reasons, in my opinion.

I'm all for mind over matter, but a friend also helped me see the value in acknowledging the body's own agenda. I think acknowledging why we restricted in the first place is so valuable in hopefully preventing it from happening in the future, but that isn't always enough to get out of the current ill health we find ourselves in. That's where I believe intuitive eating has merit. And when I say intuitive, I don't mean a food free for all just because something taste good to us in the moment.

For me, intuitive eating just means staying neutral with no preconceived view of right and wrong and taking note of how your body responds to foods over a period of time. I'd stress the "over a period of time" part because it can take the body time to build back the enzymes needed to digest a particular food so we don't want to write any off prematurely. It may also mean being conscious of having some food with us at all times till we relearn hunger cues etc.

Anyhow, I say all that in hopes that anyone reading this who shares a similar history (*girl here raises hand*) doesn't keep labeling themselves with an eating disorder or feel they're doing something wrong because their bodies are taking longer to bounce back than they or others think they should be and they find themselves on this forum trying to gain insight and possible solutions. I think being proactive with healthy intentions is a great way in gaining our power back that atrophied right along with our bodies.