Thyroid Meds Not Working

Steve

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After trying NDT (up to 3 grains a few months ago) & having no noticeable effect (except on my labs) I decided to try again.

I've been taking 1 grain of NDT before bedtime. 3 days ago I added 5 mcg of T3 in the morning. Today I took 2 x 5 mcg 3 hours apart. After all of this my temp/pulse still will not budge. In fact my temp was the lowest I can remember in regards to the noon timeframe.

But........as usual.......whenever I eat green curry with beef from the Thai restaurant my temp & pulse are perfectly normal. This is at 2 pm. I'm sure it wouldn't work as well for breakfast.
Prior to eating: 97.5 & 60.
After eating: 98.6 & 75

My temp/pulse will drop back down some as the day goes on, but does any of this give any clues as to what exactly my problem is? I went hyper about 3 years ago with some TSI antibodies (possible Grave's Disease), and then I turned hypo where I'm stuck. My temp/pulse pattern has been exactly the same for 2 1/2 years.
 

Sexypizza

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Im the same and would really like to know what can be done about this.

T3 and T4 seem to only change my lab work but my temperature and pulse dont improve.
 
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Steve

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I've tried everything I can take of. NDT small & large doses. Mostly T4 & a little T3. Small amount of progesterone. Pregnenolone. Eating extra calories. Extra sugar. Nothing will change my waking temp & pulse.
My waking temp has been the same for probably 2 years now. My situation is complicated by TSI antibodies, so I'm not sure if they are the cause of my problem. Supposedly they can be "blocking" antibodies, but I don't know what the hell they are blocking to prevent thyroid meds from working.
 

theLaw

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I've tried everything I can take of. NDT small & large doses. Mostly T4 & a little T3. Small amount of progesterone. Pregnenolone. Eating extra calories. Extra sugar. Nothing will change my waking temp & pulse.
My waking temp has been the same for probably 2 years now. My situation is complicated by TSI antibodies, so I'm not sure if they are the cause of my problem. Supposedly they can be "blocking" antibodies, but I don't know what the hell they are blocking to prevent thyroid meds from working.

Are you taking aspirin or niacinamide?
 
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Steve

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Are you taking aspirin or niacinamide?
1 aspirin maybe once a week. All I take is K2, D3, Magnesium Malate, CoQ10.
Supposedly being hypo encourages antibody production, so to get rid of antibodies I'm supposed to get out of the hypo state. But I can't!
 

theLaw

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1 aspirin maybe once a week. All I take is K2, D3, Magnesium Malate, CoQ10.
Supposedly being hypo encourages antibody production, so to get rid of antibodies I'm supposed to get out of the hypo state. But I can't!

1. I would start by dropping your sups and replacing them with food. Can't tell you how many times sups caused my problems, and everything you listed can be found in beef liver.

2. Aspirin and niacinamide (100mg or more every few hours) can block the release of free-fatty-acids which might be causing a whole host of problems. You can run a quick experiment by taking 350mg every 4hrs for a few days to see if it improves your temps or has any other effects.

3. If your temps improve after a meal, then it usually means that you weren't getting enough protein/fat/carb. You might try eating foods that are more calorically dense in the short-term even if they're less than Peaty, and also take time to chew each bite to insure the proper breakdown/digestion starts in the mouth.

4. Finally, you might consider trying something like Tyromix.

TyroMix - Liquid T3/T4 Mix For Lab/R&D
 
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Steve

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a try. I'm actually supposed to pick up some packages of grass-fed beef/grass-fed liver today from New Seasons. I hate beef liver, but it's not noticeable when mixed with ground beef.
I quit trying to eat it because I hate it, but I'll start eating a 1/4 lb per week now with this new mix I'm getting.

I have been eating a jar of fresh oysters on a weekly/bi-weekly basis which provide a lot of nutrients I believe, so I don't know if I'm really missing anything.

My temp will often hit 98.6 in the afternoon (pulse low 60's though), but waking temp is stuck around 97.
I'm not a strict Peat follower as I like to include starches in my diet (white rice, potato, sourdough bread).
Nothing warms me up better than a large portion of Thai curry & white rice.

Taking 100 mcg T4 & 1/2 grain of NDT right now.
My TSH is very suppressed at 0.05. Free T's are ok (slightly low maybe).
No noticeable effect on metabolism (temp & pulse).
It seems the thyroid meds are in my blood (which makes the pituitary lower TSH since it sees no need for more), but it's not getting into my tissues or cells or whatever.
 

theLaw

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a try. I'm actually supposed to pick up some packages of grass-fed beef/grass-fed liver today from New Seasons. I hate beef liver, but it's not noticeable when mixed with ground beef.
I quit trying to eat it because I hate it, but I'll start eating a 1/4 lb per week now with this new mix I'm getting.

I have been eating a jar of fresh oysters on a weekly/bi-weekly basis which provide a lot of nutrients I believe, so I don't know if I'm really missing anything.

Just be sure to watch that iron; coffee taken with high-iron foods will block a good portion of it from being absorbed.

Iron's Dangers
 
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Steve

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Is this a salty meal? Maybe it's the salt. Or a combination of the salt and starch.
I'm not real sure, but I don't think so. The curry pastes I've looked at don't seem to be salt-heavy. I actually just had some & my temp is 98.6.
Maybe I should just eat it for every meal starting as soon as I wake up. Works much better than thyroid meds (which I think I may start tapering off of today).
 

Sexypizza

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I'm not real sure, but I don't think so. The curry pastes I've looked at don't seem to be salt-heavy. I actually just had some & my temp is 98.6.
Maybe I should just eat it for every meal starting as soon as I wake up. Works much better than thyroid meds (which I think I may start tapering off of today).


Have you considered asking peat directly about your problem?
 
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Steve

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Have you considered asking peat directly about your problem?
I feel bad bothering him, but I did ask him a few times when I got desperate.

Newest replies to oldest:

I told him I wasn't responding to meds & temp/pulse never changed.

TSH: 0.05
Free T3: 3.45 (2.50-3.90)
Free T4: 0.95 (0.60-1.20)

"Your pituitary seems to be responding to the thyroid. Some of the things that can block other responses to it are nutritional deficiencies, toxins, or stress. Excessive aerobic exercise and deficiencies of calcium, protein, carbohydrate, and vitamins are possible causes."

I asked him if I permanently damaged my thyroid by taking a potassium supplement for 2.5 years:
"The thyroid gland can repair itself, if your nutrition is good. Supplementing thyroid hormone for a time can facilitate its recovery."

"The glandular thyroid products vary in quality, so you might want to try a different brand. Have you tried Armour, or the synthetic equivalent, Cynoplus? It’s good to watch for effects on your sleep and any symptoms you might have. Blood tests for TSH, cholesterol, vitamin D, and CRP can reflect thyroid status."

Asked about my TSI antibodies & getting out of hypo state:

"Just lowering TSH can alleviate some symptoms. Many of the people I know seem to prefer a T4/T3 ratio of
3/1 or 2/1. A combination of Cynoplus and Cynomel is an economical way to get those."

"Other things such as adrenaline always stimulate the thyroid to some extent, so it’s impossible to harm it by letting it rest; the rest allows the antibodies to fade away over a period of several months."

"Things that help to increase oxidative metabolism include calcium (low fat milk and cheese, especially), orange juice, aspirin, and a little pregnenolone or DHEA. Intestinal flora change during hypothyroidism, so antiseptic foods such as raw carrot or cooked mushrooms might help. Bacteriophage, virus that selectively kill certain bacteria, can be helpful, and are available now as small doses in capsules, Floraphage or Florassist. Sometimes it helps to use very small periodic doses of T3, allowing tissue T4 to decrease slightly. Selenium (having sea food once a week, especially oysters, shrimp, squid, or low fat fish) helps to selectively activate thyroid metabolism in particular tissues."
 

Sexypizza

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I feel bad bothering him, but I did ask him a few times when I got desperate.

Newest replies to oldest:

I told him I wasn't responding to meds & temp/pulse never changed.

TSH: 0.05
Free T3: 3.45 (2.50-3.90)
Free T4: 0.95 (0.60-1.20)

"Your pituitary seems to be responding to the thyroid. Some of the things that can block other responses to it are nutritional deficiencies, toxins, or stress. Excessive aerobic exercise and deficiencies of calcium, protein, carbohydrate, and vitamins are possible causes."

I asked him if I permanently damaged my thyroid by taking a potassium supplement for 2.5 years:
"The thyroid gland can repair itself, if your nutrition is good. Supplementing thyroid hormone for a time can facilitate its recovery."

"The glandular thyroid products vary in quality, so you might want to try a different brand. Have you tried Armour, or the synthetic equivalent, Cynoplus? It’s good to watch for effects on your sleep and any symptoms you might have. Blood tests for TSH, cholesterol, vitamin D, and CRP can reflect thyroid status."

Asked about my TSI antibodies & getting out of hypo state:

"Just lowering TSH can alleviate some symptoms. Many of the people I know seem to prefer a T4/T3 ratio of
3/1 or 2/1. A combination of Cynoplus and Cynomel is an economical way to get those."

"Other things such as adrenaline always stimulate the thyroid to some extent, so it’s impossible to harm it by letting it rest; the rest allows the antibodies to fade away over a period of several months."

"Things that help to increase oxidative metabolism include calcium (low fat milk and cheese, especially), orange juice, aspirin, and a little pregnenolone or DHEA. Intestinal flora change during hypothyroidism, so antiseptic foods such as raw carrot or cooked mushrooms might help. Bacteriophage, virus that selectively kill certain bacteria, can be helpful, and are available now as small doses in capsules, Floraphage or Florassist. Sometimes it helps to use very small periodic doses of T3, allowing tissue T4 to decrease slightly. Selenium (having sea food once a week, especially oysters, shrimp, squid, or low fat fish) helps to selectively activate thyroid metabolism in particular tissues."


Steve, you mentioned that green Thai curry gets your temperature up? I just looked up the ingredients and there is Coconut milk in it. I'm not sure if Coconut milk is the same as Coconut oil from a ray peat perspective but I noticed a few weeks ago when I had coconut oil, after many months of cooking exclusively with butter, that I felt mildly hyper on it.

My temperature didn't change but my pulse on it was around 90-95 for almost the whole day.

I also had the coconut oil with a plate of rice, shrimps and quite a bit of salt which kind of mirrors your experience somewhat.

I've used it everyday since then and I noticed the same experience but to a lesser degree every time I used it. Pulse would increase but the temperature would stay mostly the same. The effects levelled off after about a week of continued use and now I'm back to square one.

Maybe the same is happening to you?

I asked ray about it and this is what he said to me.

Ray-
"Having a reaction like that to coconut oil (or sugar) suggests that your stored tissue fats are producing a chronic inhibiting effect on your thyroid function (for example on transport of the hormone). Over a period of a few weeks, those can be used up, and with the increasing day length in the spring, you might become much more sensitive to the thyroid."

I'm still using Coconut oil but it doesn't seem to be doing anything for me and now. There are several things I'm thinking of trying out to hopefully fix this.

I'm thinking about increasing my thyroid dosage. I'm on around 2 grains right now.

Some people here on the forum, I've noticed, are also complaining about having a resistance to thyroid hormones. it seems quite a few of them were able to get around it by taking larger dosages of thyroid hormones. I've seen people here who take 150 to 200mcg of T3 before it started working for them. I've already experimented with taking 100mcg of T3 (spread out into smaller dosages throughout the day) and unfortunately felt no difference. Some people were on 6 grains before they noticed any difference.

Some people with thyroid hormone resistance have taken larger doses of T3 at a time and had success with that like 25 or 40 mcg at a time but this is obv not Ray approved.

My other plan is to try out a PUFA depletion diet in the hopes that maybe if I deplete my tissue PUFA it will stop inhibiting the thyroid hormones and will allow the hormones to work.
 
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Steve

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Steve, you mentioned that green Thai curry gets your temperature up? I just looked up the ingredients and there is Coconut milk in it. I'm not sure if Coconut milk is the same as Coconut oil from a ray peat perspective but I noticed a few weeks ago when I had coconut oil, after many months of cooking exclusively with butter, that I felt mildly hyper on it.

My temperature didn't change but my pulse on it was around 90-95 for almost the whole day.

I also had the coconut oil with a plate of rice, shrimps and quite a bit of salt which kind of mirrors your experience somewhat.

I've used it everyday since then and I noticed the same experience but to a lesser degree every time I used it. Pulse would increase but the temperature would stay mostly the same. The effects levelled off after about a week of continued use and now I'm back to square one.

Maybe the same is happening to you?

I asked ray about it and this is what he said to me.

Ray-
"Having a reaction like that to coconut oil (or sugar) suggests that your stored tissue fats are producing a chronic inhibiting effect on your thyroid function (for example on transport of the hormone). Over a period of a few weeks, those can be used up, and with the increasing day length in the spring, you might become much more sensitive to the thyroid."

I'm still using Coconut oil but it doesn't seem to be doing anything for me and now. There are several things I'm thinking of trying out to hopefully fix this.

I'm thinking about increasing my thyroid dosage. I'm on around 2 grains right now.

Some people here on the forum, I've noticed, are also complaining about having a resistance to thyroid hormones. it seems quite a few of them were able to get around it by taking larger dosages of thyroid hormones. I've seen people here who take 150 to 200mcg of T3 before it started working for them. I've already experimented with taking 100mcg of T3 (spread out into smaller dosages throughout the day) and unfortunately felt no difference. Some people were on 6 grains before they noticed any difference.

Some people with thyroid hormone resistance have taken larger doses of T3 at a time and had success with that like 25 or 40 mcg at a time but this is obv not Ray approved.

My other plan is to try out a PUFA depletion diet in the hopes that maybe if I deplete my tissue PUFA it will stop inhibiting the thyroid hormones and will allow the hormones to work.
It could have something to do with the coconut milk. I cook with coconut oil & have tried taking larger amounts of it, but the oil had no effect.
Could just be the perfect combination of protein, starch, fat, spices that my body likes, or it could just be the act of digesting it that heats me up.

I do sort of want to try larger & larger doses of T4 (with a little T3) to see if I break thru the possible resistance (John Lowe) mentioned this, but I'm just not so sure about it.
The highest I've gone is 2 grains of NDT & 100 mcg T4, so that's a total of 176 T4, 18 T3). That gave me a super-suppressed TSH, high-normal Free T3 & Free T4. No effect on temp/pulse.
I also took 5 mcg T3 every hour one day & still nothing happened; I would have thought that something would've happened if the meds were going to work at all.

I think I'm going to stop taking the meds & go on a gut-healing diet for a month or two as Paul Jaminet discusses. I know so many things depend on gut health, so that's my next experiment.
Hopefully one of us figures it out & we can post here.
 
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if your tsh is .05 which is unbelievably low, then clearly it's not the thyroid and something else.. did you get aldosterone tested? vitamin D? protein per day?
 
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Steve

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if your tsh is .05 which is unbelievably low, then clearly it's not the thyroid and something else.. did you get aldosterone tested? vitamin D? protein per day?
My TSH is only that low because of taking thyroid meds. Prior to meds it was over 3 & over 5 depending on which blood test I look at.
I eat plenty of food, so no problem with any macros. Vitamin D is a-ok. Did not test aldosterone.
 
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My TSH is only that low because of taking thyroid meds. Prior to meds it was over 3 & over 5 depending on which blood test I look at.
I eat plenty of food, so no problem with any macros. Vitamin D is a-ok. Did not test aldosterone.

i mean.. the TSH means that no more thyroid hormone is being made because it is there.. ya there's no way you can get it that low without meds.. there's a problem... somewhere.. you don't notice any other problems? like do you have constipation or something? or low libido? or what is the problem? just your temp?
 
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Steve

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i mean.. the TSH means that no more thyroid hormone is being made because it is there.. ya there's no way you can get it that low without meds.. there's a problem... somewhere.. you don't notice any other problems? like do you have constipation or something? or low libido? or what is the problem? just your temp?
My main problem is low energy which usually goes along with a dizzy/inflamed head feeling. Which also usually goes along with depression.

For instance I'll wake up feeling fine; then after a couple hours at home I'll start to feel my energy tank & my head will feel inflamed/dizzy. If I go to the store or something sometimes I'll open the car door & just sit there with one leg out because I my energy is so low I don't even want to bother standing up. Then when I'm finally in the store I'll feel out of it & dizzy & feel like I could just lay down in the middle of the aisle & go into a deep sleep. When this happens I usually feel like I'm going to break down & start crying (which is really weird........I'm not really an emotional crying type of guy).

Ever since this started (with hyper in 2014) it's always affected my head.......my brain I guess...........with what feels like brain inflammation.
I feel closer to normal currently...........not sure why.........if it's my change of thyroid meds or if something is healing.
 
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Steve

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whats your cholesterol level at?

This is with 100 mcg T4, 1/2-grain NDT:

TSH: 0.05
Free T3: 3.45 (2.50-3.90)
Free T4: 0.95 (0.60-1.20)
WBC: 4.0 (4.5-10.0)
Glucose Fast: 96 (70-99)
Cholesterol: 233 (150-200)
Triglyceride: 76 (<=149)
HDL: 70
Non-HDL: 163 (<=130)
LDL: 148 (68-100)
VLDL: 15 (4-54)
Total Testosterone: 289 (300-890) - Low

Saliva Test:
DHEAS
: 5.5 (2-23) - Low
Cortisol: 7.9 (3.7-9.5)-morning
Cortisol: 2.0 (1.2-3.0)-noon
Cortisol: 0.6 (0.6-1.9)-evening
Cortisol: 0.8 (0.4-1.0)-night
 

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