Theory, which may explain copper toxicity/deficiency/low cerruloplasmin

[Motif]

Closer to the lower/upper border?

I don’t know.

still I think it’s more possible that I have a malaysischen issue. How would something like Wilson explain low zinc and copper even with supplements?

 

[Daniil]

Fructose and mineral metabolism - PubMed

Fructose affects to some extent the bioavailability of iron, zinc, and copper. Its effect on copper has been studied most intensively. Fructose forms stable complexes with iron and promotes its absorption and also that of zinc. Compared with starch, fructose and sucrose decrease copper...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar is fine, you can eat it. It looks like there is a problem for mice only.

 

[Denisenhorses]

Morley Robbins thinks that certain dietary elements and supplements can cause ceruloplasmin deficiency even if copper intake is adequate.

He hypothesizes that vitamin D supplementation depletes retinol which is needed to load copper in ceruloplasmin.

He is against ascorbic acid, zinc, molybdenum, iron and calcium supplementation too, because he thinks that those disrupt ceruloplasmin metabolism and magnesium status.

I did not have a good experience with his protocol, even though I was really into it for a few months.
At first all things improved dramatically but over time I developed symptoms of overmethylation and low histamine levels, which is commonly linked to too much copper. It remains a mystery to me.

I did Morley protocol for almost 3 years with only minor improvement. My coach who used the program for years saw some improvements but she had to quit coaching because she was still to sick

 

[youngsinatra]

I did Morley protocol for almost 3 years with only minor improvement. My coach who used the program for years saw some improvements but she had to quit coaching because she was still to sick

Really interesting! I think it has some potential, but also seems to be too hyperfocused on one thing.

And he never mentions high levels of ceruloplasmin levels in shizophrenia or OCD patients.

 

[Motif]

I did Morley protocol for almost 3 years with only minor improvement. My coach who used the program for years saw some improvements but she had to quit coaching because she was still to sick

what helped you more ?

 

[Denisenhorses]

what helped you more ?

Ray

 

[Vinero]

I have been studying the topic of copper for a long time. I previously linked copper toxicity to my, ADHD(ADHD and copper toxicity). But I also have low cerruloplasmin and copper deficiency symptoms such as fatigue and balance problems. I intuitively understood that a person can be toxic and deficient in copper at the same time, but I could not find an explanation for this. I also noticed that among ex-vegans there are many copper-toxic ones.

So my guess is that copper sources can be divided into 2 parts. "Toxic" copper from plant sources such as cereals, seeds, nuts, mushrooms, legumes, chocolate. Copper from supplements too. This copper must be bound to a carrier protein in the body. For example, cerruloplasmin. But, if a person lacks of vitamins, for example B1 or B12; or some other unknown cofactors; or some kind of genetic limitation... A person will accumulate this "toxic" copper.
And there is "good" copper, that's already associated with functional proteins. We can get it from animal products, from meat.

It seems that animals in nature, such as primates, get mostly "good" copper from animal sources, while only humans eat legumes, nuts, chocolate, etc. in large quantities.

In general, if you have copper toxicity, I think, you should focus on the "good" copper and avoid the "bad".

Some people wrote that their cerruloplasmin went up after they started chelating copper. I think that an excess of "toxic" copper itself can create problems with copper metabolism, which is one more reason to avoid it.

About the beef liver. The liver is known to store excess copper, so it is likely to contain a lot of both "good" and "bad" copper. Therefore, I do not recommend eating it. The kidneys, I think, are the same.

I'm not sure about molluscs. They are very different from mammals and can use other functional proteins, so I don't know if it's worth eating them or not... I think we should try to eat mammalian meat. I think the best sources of copper we have are beef heart and tongue. If you eat a lot of muscle meat, you should also get enough good copper.

By the way, the database I use states that venison and goat meat contain much more copper than beef.

In general, I suggest a diet of white rice, meat, beef heart, tongue. Dairy products, if you like. But make sure you get enough copper.

Be careful with sugar, because it can deplete copper:

Fructose Induces Copper And Ceruloplasmin Deficiency?

Anyone have any comments on this? Has Ray Peat ever mentioned this concern? (PDF) The fructose–copper connection: Added sugars induce fatty liver and insulin resistance via copper deficiency

raypeatforum.com

@BearWithMe @Motif @Astolfo

Interesting theory. From my experience a white rice + meat diet cured my eczema, asthma, depression and brain fog.
It has to be white rice though. If I eat other carbs like potatoes, oats, beans, bananas etc. I get depressed and my skin breaks out.
I think the low soluble fiber content of white rice might be imporant.
Do you think zinc, molybdenum and taurine supplements are helpful? These seem to be copper antagonists.
Taking zinc daily doesn't make me feel good, but taking zinc less frequently I notice a positive effect.
Copper supplements make me feel horrible.

 

[Daniil]

Interesting theory. From my experience a white rice + meat diet cured my eczema, asthma, depression and brain fog.
It has to be white rice though. If I eat other carbs like potatoes, oats, beans, bananas etc. I get depressed and my skin breaks out.
I think the low soluble fiber content of white rice might be imporant.
Do you think zinc, molybdenum and taurine supplements are helpful? These seem to be copper antagonists.
Taking zinc daily doesn't make me feel good, but taking zinc less frequently I notice a positive effect.
Copper supplements make me feel horrible.

I don't think you need zinc and taurine supplements if you eat beef. There is molybdenum in rice. It is unlikely that you have a deficit or something like that. For what purposes do you want to take these supplements?
By the way, have you tried brown rice?

I recommend reading the information in this thread, I think depression may be related with tocotrienols

Another villain - Tocotrienol? - Page 5

I have been puzzled for a long time about the bad reaction of some people to coconut oil. Some people don't have a problem with refined coconut oil. The …

ggenereux.blog

 

[Vinero]

So according to this theory is Retinol/Vitamin A needed for copper to become bio-available?
In which case butter or whole fat milk/cheese would be a good source of vitamin A, maybe eggs too.

Aren't potatoes a good source of copper? Or do potatoes fall into the "toxic" copper category?

 

[Daniil]

So according to this theory is Retinol/Vitamin A needed for copper to become bio-available?
In which case butter or whole fat milk/cheese would be a good source I think, maybe eggs.

Aren't potatoes a good source of copper too? Or do potatoes also fall into the toxic copper category?

[Relation between ceruloplasmin and vitamin A in Sprague-Dawley rats] - PubMed

The Moore's hypothesis concerning a relationship between the metabolism of copper and that of vitamin A led us to consider a possible relationship between this vitamin and ceruloplasmin, the carrier protein for copper. Experiments were carried out on Sprague-Dawley rats. The ceruloplasmin level...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In this study mice deficient in vitamin A had higher levels of cp...

I don't know...

Yes, I also consider potatoes to be potentially toxic.

 

[Vinero]

I don't know...

Yes, I also consider potatoes to be potentially toxic.

Thanks. One more thing:
Morley robbins thinks whole food vitamin C can be a source of copper.
So fruits and vegetables rich in vitamin C are good, but not ascorbic acid supplements. Ascorbic acid/ vitamin C supplements mess up ceruloplasmin according to him.
Have you considered Fruits and vegetables as a potential source of "good" copper since they contain whole food vitamin C?

 

[Daniil]

Thanks. One more thing:
Morley robbins thinks whole food vitamin C can be a source of copper.
So fruits and vegetables rich in vitamin C are good, but not ascorbic acid supplements. Ascorbic acid/ vitamin C supplements mess up ceruloplasmin according to him.
Have you considered Fruits and vegetables as a potential source of "good" copper since they contain whole food vitamin C?

A good source of vitamin C, but not copper.

 

[Vinero]

Daniil you said you recommend a diet of white rice, meat, heart, tounge and maybe dairy.
But white rice also contains copper. If you eat mostly white rice as your source of carbs you still probably get between 1-2 mg of copper a day. I bet this also is in the 'toxic' form similar to potatoes or chocolate.
So if you really want to have close to zero "toxic" copper intake a better starch source would be cornstarch or tapioca flour/starch. These starches are actually deficient in copper.

 

[Daniil]

Daniil you said you recommend a diet of white rice, meat, heart, tounge and maybe dairy.
But white rice also contains copper. If you eat mostly white rice as your source of carbs you still probably get between 1-2 mg of copper a day. I bet this also is in the 'toxic' form similar to potatoes or chocolate.
So if you really want to have close to zero "toxic" copper intake a better starch source would be cornstarch or tapioca flour/starch. These starches are actually deficient in copper.

It depends on how many carbohydrates you eat. But I think yes, this is a problem. Personally, I now eat some potatoes + apples and coffee with sugar. Thus, I get no more than 0.7 mg from plant sources. I think I became a whiter skin color while following this diet, lol. But in general, I feel better.

By the way, another theory of mine is that aromatase inhibitors, such as caffeine, vitamin E, K2, B3, cause the dumping of toxic copper due to a decrease in estrogen. I recently developed cholestasis due to taking these supplements and I cured it by taking aspirin (chelator). Cholestasis is associated with copper overload and ADHD.

Liver copper levels in intrahepatic cholestasis of childhood - PubMed

Liver copper concentration was studied in four groups of age-matched patients and in 9 patients with Wilson's disease of comparable age. Neutron activation analysis of hepatic copper concentration revealed markedly elevated hepatic copper levels, comparable with those in Wilson's disease, in 13...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Daniil]

By the way, eating tapioca is a good idea, but there is no such thing where I live.

 

[Vinero]

It depends on how many carbohydrates you eat. But I think yes, this is a problem. Personally, I now eat some potatoes + apples and coffee with sugar. Thus, I get no more than 0.7 mg from plant sources. I think I became a whiter skin color while following this diet, lol. But in general, I feel better.

By the way, another theory of mine is that aromatase inhibitors, such as caffeine, vitamin E, K2, B3, cause the dumping of toxic copper due to a decrease in estrogen. I recently developed cholestasis due to taking these supplements and I cured it by taking aspirin (chelator). Cholestasis is associated with copper overload and ADHD.

Liver copper levels in intrahepatic cholestasis of childhood - PubMed

Liver copper concentration was studied in four groups of age-matched patients and in 9 patients with Wilson's disease of comparable age. Neutron activation analysis of hepatic copper concentration revealed markedly elevated hepatic copper levels, comparable with those in Wilson's disease, in 13...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I thought estrogen causes cholestasis, as well as excess copper, and secondary bile acids.
If aromatase inhibitors caused you to develop cholestasis how come studies I found all say coffee, zinc, taurine, vitamin E, etc lower liver enzymes and lower bilirubin levels (markers of cholestasis).
There are many studies on the positive effect on liver health of these anti-estrogens.
How does aspirin help cholestasis? Aspirin is also an aromatase inhibitor.

 

[Daniil]

I thought estrogen causes cholestasis, as well as excess copper, and secondary bile acids.
If aromatase inhibitors caused you to develop cholestasis how come studies I found all say coffee, zinc, taurine, vitamin E, etc lower liver enzymes and lower bilirubin levels (markers of cholestasis).
There are many studies on the positive effect on liver health of these anti-estrogens.
How does aspirin help cholestasis? Aspirin is also an aromatase inhibitor.

I think there is a difference in the long - term and short-term effects of consuming caffeine and other aromatase inhibitors. If you drink coffee all your life, you will have less estrogen. But if you take a bunch of aromatase inhibitors for a few days, it will cause problems. Although I have not heard that cholestasis is treated with caffeine or vitamin E.

 

[Daniil]

I was able to fix my cerruloplasmin. Without copper additives. I do not know what exactly helped me, but now my CP is in the middle of the range. This diet + low VA + blood donation.

 

[youngsinatra]

I was able to fix my cerruloplasmin. Without copper additives. I do not know what exactly helped me, but now my CP is in the middle of the range. This diet + low VA + blood donation.

What diet? :)

 

[Daniil]

What diet? :)

What was discussed in this thread.