ADHD and copper toxicity

[Daniil]

The puzzle begins to take shape.

As I wrote in the thread,High salt intake caused metabolic acidosis, I assume that ADHD may be a simple dopamine deficiency.
As you can see from the diagram below, vitamin B6 is essential for the synthesis of dopamine.
Haidut previously published a study in which ADHD was successfully treated with B6.
[URL Unfurl = "true"] ADHD may be simply a vitamin B6 deficiency symptom [/ URL]

The diagram shows that iron is necessary for the conversion of phenylalanine to tyrosine, and then to l-dopa (I think if someone does not help L-dopa - the problem is a lack of B6).

Effects of iron supplementation on attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children - PubMed

Iron deficiency has been suggested as a possible contributing cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children. This present study examined the effects of iron supplementation on ADHD in children. Twenty-three nonanemic children (aged 5-8 years) with serum ferritin levels <30 …

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study showed the effectiveness of iron supplementation in ADHD.

Also from this diagram, we can see that dopamine is further converted to norepinephrine by copper and vitamin C. Based on this, I assume that an excess of copper in sensitive brain tissues can lead to a strong conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine and a deficiency of dopamine.

In this thread(Excess Copper), a formula for calculating free copper was previously published. I turned out to have 27, which is almost 2 times higher than the expected norm. Itis the excess of free copper that can accumulate in the tissues. I have also previously noticed brown spots from copper additives. I think it might be related.

It is known that estrogen causes the accumulation of copper in the tissues and vice versa.

This study found low levels of vitamin A and D in children with ADHD:

Frontiers | Serum Levels of Vitamin A and Vitamin D and Their Association With Symptoms in Children With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

Objective: To measure levels of vitamin A (VA) and vitamin D (VD) and the symptomatic association of their co-deficiencies on attention deficit hyperactivity...

www.frontiersin.org

And in this topic, Haidut provided a study that links low vitamin D levels to high estrogen levels:

High Estrogen (Androgen Deficiency) Causes Low Vitamin D; DHT Is Therapeutic

I rarely stumble across studies like this one. Namely, showing in one single experiment both the detrimental effects of estrogen on one of the most important biomarkers of health (vitamin D), and the beneficial effects of a steroid long vilified/demonized by virtually everybody wearing a white...

raypeatforum.com

In this study, it was shown that vitamin A causes a strong increase in the synthesis of cerruloplasmin:

Induction of ceruloplasmin synthesis by retinoic acid in rats: influence of dietary copper and vitamin A status - PubMed

Ceruloplasmin, a copper-containing acute phase plasma protein, has been shown to be regulated by 13-cis retinoic acid in rats. Ceruloplasmin activity was significantly increased within 24 h and remained elevated for at least 72 h after a single injection of 13-cis retinoic acid. With daily...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

B12 levels are inversely proportional to the severity of ADHD symptoms:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24750573.2018.1459005

B12 deficiency causes copper deficiency:

Hypocupremia associated with prior vitamin B12 deficiency - PubMed

Clinical similarities between vitamin B(12) and copper deficiencies prompted us to investigate if hypocupremia is present in patients receiving vitamin B(12) supplementation. Our pilot study results indicate that a significant number of elderly patients with prior diagnosis of vitamin B(12)...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think that B12 is necessary for the synthesis of cerruloplasmin and if you do not have enough b12 there will be little cerruloplasmin, but a lot of free copper that will be excreted in the urine/accumulate in the tissues, which will cause a deficiency. But there is little information on this topic, and here you may not believe me.

B12 Deficiency And Hypothyroidism

I'm posting this because I don't think I've seen much information about it that sounded imperative. B12 is mentioned a lot for energy, but I've been Peating for over a year and I am just learning that one of the most serious complications of hypothyroidism is a B12 deficiency...

raypeatforum.com

I also recommend taking into account the information from this thread. If there is hypothyroidism, it will cause a B12 deficiency, so treating hypothyroidism, if there is one, is probably one of the priorities.

Therefore, I believe that a set of different factors that reduce dopamine, such as iron/B6 deficiency, excess estrogen/free copper (due to low intake or retinol/B12 deficiency) collectively or individually causes ADHD. Hence, B6, A, B12 supplements and dietary restriction of copper seem to me to be potentially useful in the treatment of ADHD. Anything that inhibits aromatase and lowering estrogen levels, such as zinc or caffeine, can also be useful.

 

[Daniil]

And copper supplements seem dangerous to me without additional Vitamin A, B12. The levels of copper in the blood depend not so much on free copper, but on cerruloplasmin, as can be seen from the formula. Therefore, vitamin A is probably more effective for boosting copper levels than copper supplements.

 

[Daniil]

I think that the accumulation of copper in the tissues depends on the level of estrogen. That is, in a person with high estrogen, the excess copper consumed will be deposited in the tissues. At the same time, in a person with low estrogen, even if there is taking a lot of copper, it will simply come out in the urine and will not create problems. Thus, copper is a problem only for people with initially high estrogen.

 

[Vinero]

It seems a diet based on milk and meat would be the most helpful in this case. Milk and meat such as chicken, turkey and beef are low in copper and contain plenty of b12. Milk, butter and cheese have vitamin A.
Liver contains vitamin A but also has a ton of copper. So butter and high fat dairy are a safter vitamin A source.

 

[Daniil]

It seems a diet based on milk and meat would be the most helpful in this case. Milk and meat such as chicken, turkey and beef are low in copper and contain plenty of b12. Milk, butter and cheese have vitamin A.
Liver contains vitamin A but also has a ton of copper. So butter and high fat dairy are a safter vitamin A source.

I know Ray doesn't eat liver often. I think it's not balanced for vitamin A. It does not contain much vitamin A(5000 IU), but it is very high in copper(about 10 mg per hundred grams, which is 10 daily norms).

 

[Daniil]

But I think you're definitely right that it makes sense to talk about the balance of copper/vitamin A/B12 in food

 

[Daniil]

Калорийность Желатин пищевой. Химический состав и пищевая ценность.

Калорийность Желатин пищевой. Химический состав и пищевая ценность.

health-diet.ru

According to this Russian website, gelatin also contains a lot of copper (157%). Although I think it depends on the specific product.

 

[Vinero]

Калорийность Желатин пищевой. Химический состав и пищевая ценность.

Калорийность Желатин пищевой. Химический состав и пищевая ценность.

health-diet.ru

According to this Russian website, gelatin also contains a lot of copper (157%). Although I think it depends on the specific product.

I didn't know that gelatin is rich in copper. It seems you are right:
100 gram of gelatin contains around 2 mg of copper, which is 240% of the RDA.

This might explain why some people feel "wired" when they eat gelatin. I've also noticed this in the past, that I get some anxiety after eating gelatin. Even though gelatin is supposed to be calming because of the high glycine content.
(4) Why Would Gelatin Specifically Cause Me To Feel "wired"? | Ray Peat Forum

 

[Daniil]

This study says that ACTH, progesterone, and aldosterone increase the synthesis of cerruloplasmin. Now I understand why I(and not only me) get worse after eating salt (reduced aldosterone - more free copper). @yerrag how do you like that explanation? The introduction of progesterone seems to be another harmless way to solve the problem.

Depression is low dopamine, but high ACTH. I think people have different compensatory mechanisms. Someone has increased ACTH and depression, someone has high histamine and ADHD(more on this The High Dopamine & Histamine Personality » MENELITE, in my opinion, the symptoms of ADHD are similar to those of high histamine). Apparently, anyone with an excess of estrogen will have problems with copper (to varying degrees depending on copper consumption, B12 status, etc.). And many people have problems with estrogen.

By the way, I've just been to the doctor. she referred me to an ophthalmologist. And she said that along with Wilson's syndrome, anemia often develops(with low red blood cells, platelets, etc). I think this is another argument that Wilson's syndrome may just be a symptom of B12 deficiency due to the inability to synthesize cerruloplasmin.

 

[Daniil]

My progesterone in the last test was below the baseboard

 

[Daniil]

It may make sense to supplement pregnenolone for problems with copper

 

[golder]

It may make sense to supplement pregnenolone for problems with copper

Interesting, I’ve not heard this angle. Why does pregnenolone help with low copper?

 

[Daniil]

Effect of estrogen on serum and tissue levels of copper and zinc - PubMed

Estrogen along with progestogen is the most widely used form of contraceptive by women. Its use in any dose, form or route has been shown to increase serum copper and ceruloplasmin levels in humans and rats. However, its effect on plasma zinc levels is not established unequivocally. We...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I found another study. It is interesting because estrogen reduces the copper reserves in the liver. well, that complicates the theory. However, this confirms that an excess of estrogen causes copper to accumulate in the brain and the possible benefit of limiting copper in ADHD and reducing estrogen. But this means that it is not the copper itself that is problematic, but its high content in the brain.

 

[Daniil]

Interesting, I’ve not heard this angle. Why does pregnenolone help with low copper?

Not copper, but cerruloplasmin. I think anything that helps synthesize cerruloplasmin will be useful for ADHD, because it will reduce the amount of free copper in blood.

 

[Daniil]

Pregnenolone will increase progesterone, and progesterone increases the synthesis of cerruloplasmin.

 

[Daniil]

In addition, progesterone is anti-estrogenic, and anything that reduces estrogen will be usefu

 

[Daniil]

However, I am not sure that pregnenolone will turn into progesterone, and not into anything else. But I've heard that it is. It would be nice if someone would sort this out.

 

[Daniil]

I think, obviously, it is free copper that accumulates in the brain, and not cerruloplasmin)

 

[Daniil]

Copper (Cu2+) induces degeneration of dopaminergic neurons in the nigrostriatal system of rats - PubMed

Copper could induce damage of dopaminergic neurons in the SN of rats through destroying antioxidant defenses and promoting apoptosis.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

High levels of FREE copper reduce dopamine levels in the rat brain

 

[Daniil]

Copper (Cu2+) induces degeneration of dopaminergic neurons in the nigrostriatal system of rats - PubMed

Copper could induce damage of dopaminergic neurons in the SN of rats through destroying antioxidant defenses and promoting apoptosis.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

High levels of FREE copper reduce dopamine levels in the rat brain

However, it turns out to be due to the destruction of neurons