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Theory, which may explain copper toxicity/deficiency/low cerruloplasmin

Daniil

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Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
854
Location
Moscow
I have been studying the topic of copper for a long time. I previously linked copper toxicity to my, ADHD(ADHD and copper toxicity). But I also have low cerruloplasmin and copper deficiency symptoms such as fatigue and balance problems. I intuitively understood that a person can be toxic and deficient in copper at the same time, but I could not find an explanation for this. I also noticed that among ex-vegans there are many copper-toxic ones.

So my guess is that copper sources can be divided into 2 parts. "Toxic" copper from plant sources such as cereals, seeds, nuts, mushrooms, legumes, chocolate. Copper from supplements too. This copper must be bound to a carrier protein in the body. For example, cerruloplasmin. But, if a person lacks of vitamins, for example B1 or B12; or some other unknown cofactors; or some kind of genetic limitation... A person will accumulate this "toxic" copper.
And there is "good" copper, that's already associated with functional proteins. We can get it from animal products, from meat.

It seems that animals in nature, such as primates, get mostly "good" copper from animal sources, while only humans eat legumes, nuts, chocolate, etc. in large quantities.

In general, if you have copper toxicity, I think, you should focus on the "good" copper and avoid the "bad".

Some people wrote that their cerruloplasmin went up after they started chelating copper. I think that an excess of "toxic" copper itself can create problems with copper metabolism, which is one more reason to avoid it.

About the beef liver. The liver is known to store excess copper, so it is likely to contain a lot of both "good" and "bad" copper. Therefore, I do not recommend eating it. The kidneys, I think, are the same.

I'm not sure about molluscs. They are very different from mammals and can use other functional proteins, so I don't know if it's worth eating them or not... I think we should try to eat mammalian meat. I think the best sources of copper we have are beef heart and tongue. If you eat a lot of muscle meat, you should also get enough good copper.

By the way, the database I use states that venison and goat meat contain much more copper than beef.

In general, I suggest a diet of white rice, meat, beef heart, tongue. Dairy products, if you like. But make sure you get enough copper.

Be careful with sugar, because it can deplete copper:

@BearWithMe @Motif @Astolfo
 

Lucas

Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
373
I have been studying the topic of copper for a long time. I previously linked copper toxicity to my, ADHD(ADHD and copper toxicity). But I also have low cerruloplasmin and copper deficiency symptoms such as fatigue and balance problems. I intuitively understood that a person can be toxic and deficient in copper at the same time, but I could not find an explanation for this. I also noticed that among ex-vegans there are many copper-toxic ones.

So my guess is that copper sources can be divided into 2 parts. "Toxic" copper from plant sources such as cereals, seeds, nuts, mushrooms, legumes, chocolate. Copper from supplements too. This copper must be bound to a carrier protein in the body. For example, cerruloplasmin. But, if a person lacks of vitamins, for example B1 or B12; or some other unknown cofactors; or some kind of genetic limitation... A person will accumulate this "toxic" copper.
And there is "good" copper, that's already associated with functional proteins. We can get it from animal products, from meat.

It seems that animals in nature, such as primates, get mostly "good" copper from animal sources, while only humans eat legumes, nuts, chocolate, etc. in large quantities.

In general, if you have copper toxicity, I think, you should focus on the "good" copper and avoid the "bad".

Some people wrote that their cerruloplasmin went up after they started chelating copper. I think that an excess of "toxic" copper itself can create problems with copper metabolism, which is one more reason to avoid it.

About the beef liver. The liver is known to store excess copper, so it is likely to contain a lot of both "good" and "bad" copper. Therefore, I do not recommend eating it. The kidneys, I think, are the same.

I'm not sure about molluscs. They are very different from mammals and can use other functional proteins, so I don't know if it's worth eating them or not... I think we should try to eat mammalian meat. I think the best sources of copper we have are beef heart and tongue. If you eat a lot of muscle meat, you should also get enough good copper.

By the way, the database I use states that venison and goat meat contain much more copper than beef.

In general, I suggest a diet of white rice, meat, beef heart, tongue. Dairy products, if you like. But make sure you get enough copper.

Be careful with sugar, because it can deplete copper:

@BearWithMe @Motif @Astolfo
I have low copper and ceruloplasmin and I'm eating 300g beef liver a week. Should I suspend this then and switch to beef heart and red meat steak?
I also have high ferritin, is it high because of ceruloplasmin deficiency?
 

Nomane Euger

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Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
1,309
I have been studying the topic of copper for a long time. I previously linked copper toxicity to my, ADHD(ADHD and copper toxicity). But I also have low cerruloplasmin and copper deficiency symptoms such as fatigue and balance problems. I intuitively understood that a person can be toxic and deficient in copper at the same time, but I could not find an explanation for this. I also noticed that among ex-vegans there are many copper-toxic ones.

So my guess is that copper sources can be divided into 2 parts. "Toxic" copper from plant sources such as cereals, seeds, nuts, mushrooms, legumes, chocolate. Copper from supplements too. This copper must be bound to a carrier protein in the body. For example, cerruloplasmin. But, if a person lacks of vitamins, for example B1 or B12; or some other unknown cofactors; or some kind of genetic limitation... A person will accumulate this "toxic" copper.
And there is "good" copper, that's already associated with functional proteins. We can get it from animal products, from meat.

It seems that animals in nature, such as primates, get mostly "good" copper from animal sources, while only humans eat legumes, nuts, chocolate, etc. in large quantities.

In general, if you have copper toxicity, I think, you should focus on the "good" copper and avoid the "bad".

Some people wrote that their cerruloplasmin went up after they started chelating copper. I think that an excess of "toxic" copper itself can create problems with copper metabolism, which is one more reason to avoid it.

About the beef liver. The liver is known to store excess copper, so it is likely to contain a lot of both "good" and "bad" copper. Therefore, I do not recommend eating it. The kidneys, I think, are the same.

I'm not sure about molluscs. They are very different from mammals and can use other functional proteins, so I don't know if it's worth eating them or not... I think we should try to eat mammalian meat. I think the best sources of copper we have are beef heart and tongue. If you eat a lot of muscle meat, you should also get enough good copper.

By the way, the database I use states that venison and goat meat contain much more copper than beef.

In general, I suggest a diet of white rice, meat, beef heart, tongue. Dairy products, if you like. But make sure you get enough copper.

Be careful with sugar, because it can deplete copper:

@BearWithMe @Motif @Astolfo
you didnt mention fruits,doesnt it contain coppers
 

Daniil

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Thread starter
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Moscow
I have low copper and ceruloplasmin and I'm eating 300g beef liver a week. Should I suspend this then and switch to beef heart and red meat steak?
I also have high ferritin, is it high because of ceruloplasmin deficiency?
Alcohol consumption and inflammation can also cause high ferritin. I would recommend looking at other blood iron tests to make sure excess iron is present. It may also be a situation that you cannot use iron and you are missing some cofactors, possibly in common with copper.

Yes, I think beef heart is better than the liver.
 

Lucas

Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
373
Alcohol consumption and inflammation can also cause high ferritin. I would recommend looking at other blood iron tests to make sure excess iron is present. It may also be a situation that you cannot use iron and you are missing some cofactors, possibly in common with copper.

Yes, I think beef heart is better than the liver.
I have high ferritin but transferrin saturation is normal to low.
If it's inflammation, the problem is to identify what's causing the inflammation.
 

Daniil

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I have high ferritin but transferrin saturation is normal to low.
If it's inflammation, the problem is to identify what's causing the inflammation.
Unless you are overweight or have a chronic infection, I think this is something common, for example some kind of food toxins, like gluten
 

youngsinatra

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Feb 3, 2020
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Frankfurt, Germany
Morley Robbins thinks that certain dietary elements and supplements can cause ceruloplasmin deficiency even if copper intake is adequate.

He hypothesizes that vitamin D supplementation depletes retinol which is needed to load copper in ceruloplasmin.

He is against ascorbic acid, zinc, molybdenum, iron and calcium supplementation too, because he thinks that those disrupt ceruloplasmin metabolism and magnesium status.

I did not have a good experience with his protocol, even though I was really into it for a few months.
At first all things improved dramatically but over time I developed symptoms of overmethylation and low histamine levels, which is commonly linked to too much copper. It remains a mystery to me.
 

Motif

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Still the only story I know of people who brought their copper and cp up in this forum is this one dude who art liver weekly, but his main copper source was daily high dosed average copper supplement for 3 months or so

i think his name was @dougles ek or something like that
 
Last edited:

Daniil

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Still the only story I know of people who brought their copper and cp up in this forum is this one dude who art liver weekly, but his main copper source was daily high dosed average copper supplement for 3 months or so
What kind of additive was it?
Actually, there are cerruloplasmin copper supplements.

By the way, I think a liver biopsy is the only way to know for sure if you're copper toxic or not.
 

Daniil

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There are people who raised their copper by stopping eating it/taking a chelator.

But I admit that there are simply scarce people with malabsorption.
 

Daniil

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Thread starter
Joined
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854
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Morley Robbins thinks that certain dietary elements and supplements can cause ceruloplasmin deficiency even if copper intake is adequate.

He hypothesizes that vitamin D supplementation depletes retinol which is needed to load copper in ceruloplasmin.

He is against ascorbic acid, zinc, molybdenum, iron and calcium supplementation too, because he thinks that those disrupt ceruloplasmin metabolism and magnesium status.

I did not have a good experience with his protocol, even though I was really into it for a few months.
At first all things improved dramatically but over time I developed symptoms of overmethylation and low histamine levels, which is commonly linked to too much copper. It remains a mystery to me.

In this study mice deficient in vitamin A had higher levels of cp...
 

Motif

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I think something like copper gluconate is what he took. I don’t know how much , but around 8 mg daily I think.


and yeah I think for me it’s malabsorption, cause my zinc is low too.
 

Daniil

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I think something like copper gluconate is what he took. I don’t know how much , but around 8 mg daily I think.


and yeah I think for me it’s malabsorption, cause my zinc is low too.
But I think you need to be sure you are malabsorbed before taking copper in such doses. You might want to consider a liver biopsy
 

redsun

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Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
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Morley Robbins thinks that certain dietary elements and supplements can cause ceruloplasmin deficiency even if copper intake is adequate.

He hypothesizes that vitamin D supplementation depletes retinol which is needed to load copper in ceruloplasmin.

He is against ascorbic acid, zinc, molybdenum, iron and calcium supplementation too, because he thinks that those disrupt ceruloplasmin metabolism and magnesium status.

I did not have a good experience with his protocol, even though I was really into it for a few months.
At first all things improved dramatically but over time I developed symptoms of overmethylation and low histamine levels, which is commonly linked to too much copper. It remains a mystery to me.

Too much emphasis on copper by morley robbins thats why. You probably needed some more copper, thus you improved in some manner but you overdid it hence other problems surfaced. The average person total body content of copper is estimated to be 50-120mg.
 

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