And see I can understand and respect that, but that isn't what is coming at me quoting Peat and getting arguements about it. Like I said just say It isn't ideal, but it is what I am going to do, not Ray Peat must be wrong.. Everybody keeps approaching starches like "because Peat has his tortilla "splurge" of masa tortillas once in a while then everybody should think it is healthy. Then when Ray Peat has a little belly from his splurges AT 85 YEARS OLD then his science must be flawed. Jib you are not all the threads I am with these ridiculous arguements. There a dozen different Ray Peat clips and quotes I have poated throughout this thread and I can post a dozen more and the arguements would continue. Like you Jib I don't like so many liquids either, not that I have a problem with them, it is just not my preference. I think people like you are here to help the best you can with your experiences, but there are more than a few that dole out some really bad advice.
I am impressed with your cheese making. I made mozzarella a couple of years ago and you have reminded me I need to do that more. Thank you! I think everything you wrote will be helpful for people to hear. Please keep getting in the ring with us Jib to battle it out ?
I know what you mean. This is similar to people saying Peat recommends gummy bears and ice cream and Coca Cola as dietary staples. Very misguided and for me personally I avoid these things as completely as possible with rare exceptions. As I've delved more into grains, I've accepted this isn't "Peaty" and nowhere does he actively endorse starch consumption -- just that it can be possible to have starch in a healthy diet, though in his opinion it isn't ideal, and other foods are better.
My personal preference is whole fresh fruit or frozen fruit. Blueberries, grapes, cherries, watermelon, pineapple, etc. Just about any fruit. And it does pair extremely well with dairy. My most recent experiments have been mixing/blending kefir with whey and casein protein powder, to make them more digestible via fermentation. I use "secondary fermentation" kefir, meaning the actual kefir grains are not in the batch. You simply use fresh kefir. I blend *that* with the protein powder(s), and then strain.
The whey did not taste very good. Perhaps it could be sweetened and flavored to taste much better. However, it may be in line with what Peat says, that in fermented milk products, the lactic acid is primarily in the whey. I will say that the extra casein powder seemed to make this soft cheese extremely rich, like a very nice cream cheese, but fluffier. The cheese leftover after straining the whey out tastes very good. Almost like whipped cream cheese, if there is such a thing. Pleasant sour flavor that actually is very good mixed with a little jam or natural fruit juice, like the leftover blueberry juice I'm using from this bowl of blueberries I just had.
Getting two cavities really alarmed me. I didn't start the sourdough until more recently, and was mostly doing oatmeal and masa harina, but honestly the two cavities really scared me. It's been many, many years since I've had a cavity. Last time I went to the dentist, I had not gone for 6 years, and my teeth were perfectly fine. So to have gone about a year ago and OK again, but to go just a week ago, and after several months of doing high starch, I have two cavities? Scary. So. Honestly that has gotten me re-thinking things.
If I can find a way to ferment oats so they taste good, I may do that. I am much more wary of unfermented grains now. And I would again agree with Ray that things like white rice are probably less harmful in the long run, despite having less nutrients -- because they also have less anti-nutrients too.
I'm really on the fence with starch. The sourdough spelt bread has been going well, and as I've been making that, I've been having oatmeal a lot less, almost none. Masa harina makes a great drink (atole), and you don't use much for it. Plus, sweetened with cream and sugar, you're still keeping the sugar/starch ratio within reason. I personally like using coconut palm sugar for all my refined sugar needs.
Today I had: Atole with cream and sugar, fresh grapes, a decaf coffee with cream, sugar and collagen, steak, a porkchop, whole grain sourdough bread, kefir cheese, cherries and blueberries. All in all, I felt pretty good today.
I'm trying to remember that, at least for me and my weight loss, high carb and lower fat has been a godsend. I can handle kefir, not so much fresh milk, but I just haven't had a taste for it lately, and as we all know, Peat is not a fan of lactic acid, so maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe my body has had its fill. It does taste much better blended with fruit so maybe the sugar helps with the tendency for lactic acid to cause glycogen depletion.
I forgot to mention I have a friend who got hardcore into McDougall (The Starch Solution) and others, and lost about 50 pounds and is doing much better now. Like Peat said, I don't think starch is necessarily incompatible with a healthy diet. Currently I am trying to find a balance, and see how much starch I can handle, what feels right and what doesn't, and what's beneficial and what's not.
Basics help me the most. And it does seem that high carb, lower fat, and moderate or even high-ish protein (from the right sources) is right in line with everything Peat has suggested. So while I'm figuring things out, sticking to that has helped me. I do have occasional periods where I eat much higher fat but it is not a daily thing like it used to be (fairly copious amounts of cheese and chocolate).
The cheese and chocolate thing is another example of taking Peat out of context, and I got fat for it. Saturated fat good, sugar good, dairy good. So you'd think that all the cheese, chocolate and ice cream in the world should be good for you. That's only one example of how far these things Peat has said can be taken out of context with disastrous results.
So I hear you on that. And there is nothing wrong with experimenting, but I agree it is a mistake to attribute it to Peat or to claim that he "approves" of such things. As I mentioned, his recommendation to a vegan that a vegan diet can be healthy, and he recommended potatoes and mushrooms as high quality sources of vegan protein.
This does not mean Peat recommends everyone be a vegan and that the healthiest diet is a vegan diet. Even Peat himself will not necessarily abide by things he's said or written. He's only human. He can eat gummy bears and ice cream and drink Coke and eat pork rinds and tortillas once in a while without it being a huge deal, but people tend to take that as a blanket endorsement to consume as much of these foods as they want, all the time.
I don't necessarily agree with guys like McDougall or Gregor that are very militant in their approach, but some amount of that can be helpful, such as consciously lowering fat intake or avoiding eating hyper-caloric foods on any kind of regular basis.
I've been reading Peat for a very long time and I made some stupid mistakes like liberally using coconut oil to fry and saute everything, and figured all was well because it's a saturated fat, so that means I can have as much of it as I want.
Surprise, when I sharply limited my fat intake and sharply increased my carb intake, 20 to 25lbs melted off. As you said, however, you can lose weight all sorts of ways. It is worth noting how Peat has recommended low fat dairy to people who are overweight and don't need the extra calories. I heeded that advice and switched from whole milk to 1% and that also was a part of losing a significant amount of weight.
Common sense can elude all of us. I'd say it's actually the rule, not the exception, to forego common sense when you delve into any subject a little too intensely. It's just the way it is. Fortunately I feel like some of my common sense returned. Not all of it :p But enough to stop gaining weight and start moving slowly in the other direction.