Starch - The Delicious Devil

[Nighteyes]

I seem to do really well with homemade spelt sourdough bread, but the jury is still out. I have seemingly random energy crashes and will have to do more experimentation, because I've also gotten these crashes even while avoiding starch completely, so I don't think it's reasonable to attribute it to starch.

Anyway, I use milk kefir as a starter, simply add sea salt and filtered water as well, mix up and ferment for 24 hours before baking in a dutch oven greased with hydrogenated coconut oil.

Spelt being a non-hybridized ancient grain is one thing. Fermenting is another. If we look at grain consumption we have to consider that historically, grains were fermented. Or in the case of corn, nixtamalized -- cooked in calcium hydroxide, which makes the niacin available and also makes the proteins more digestible.

Starch is easily stored and extremely cheap. For convenience, food security and affordability, it's pretty much impossible to beat.

Most of my starch is: organic, non-fortified quick oats, masa harina (in the form of porridge or atole), and homemade sourdough spelt bread.

It would make sense that fermentation significantly pre-digests starch and would therefore leave a lot less potentially undigested when we consume it. And this is also the traditional way of preparing many grains.

Iron fortification of grains is definitely an issue, and one would be hard pressed to find long-term studies on starch that disqualify iron-fortified grains. How many people in any studies on grains are ONLY consuming fermented grains prepared via traditional methods?

However, there may be many pitfalls. I have two dental cavities, the first I've had in over 12 years, after a year or so of eating a lot more starch. Perhaps starch lends itself to sticking to the teeth more, perhaps it's the phytic acid from the oats/masa depleting mineral stores. Who knows. But of course that has concerned me and has made me reconsider adding all this starch into my diet, but I've simply upped my dental care routine for now.

For the record, I have lost about 20 pounds while upping starch intake significantly, and lowering fat intake. 205 pounds at 5'11", down to 180-185 pounds.

Basically I stopped eating cheese and chocolate completely, only use coconut oil on rare occasions, and regularly have spelt sourdough bread, oatmeal with bananas and raisins, and masa harina with hot sauce and salt for flavor. I also stopped fruit juice but still regularly consume whole fresh fruit, such as blueberries, bananas, grapes, and apples. For meat I'll have just about anything. I'm on the fence lately with red meat, as I've been having a lot of it lately, but I'm not so sure that's a great idea because of the high iron content.

The sourdough, for the record, came later into the game. I found out I had cavities when my starch intake was almost exclusively quick oats and masa harina. I would imagine the reduced phytic acid from fermentation would be beneficial for mineral absorption, and just naturally, I've been craving the sourdough more than all other starches for the time being, to the point where I only have been having small amounts of oats and masa.

I may have a potato allergy. Hard to say. I do seem to be extremely sensitive to solanine or any other glykoalkaloid toxins in potatoes because I frequently get a very bitter, metallic, and burning sensation in my mouth when I eat potatoes of any variety. Thoroughly peeling the skin helps, but not always. Depending on how long they were sitting out and how many toxins they started producing, they can be simply inedible to me. I've had other people try the same potatoes that were giving me horrible reactions and they tasted fine to these people, so an allergy is certainly possible.

Otherwise, I'd probably have a bunch of potatoes. Very high quality nutrient profile, and very satiating. Unfortunately this possible allergy makes regularly consuming potatoes impossible for me. So far the sourdough spelt is the winner for me. I am not opposed to the idea that eliminating all starch may be beneficial, but I have lost a lot of weight on high-starch and lower fat, so the idea that starch by default makes you fat does not ring true with my personal experience.

Your post really ressonates with my experiences. I got a few cavities and sensitive back upper teeth after a long time with whole grains and potatoes. I really Think it is hard to get enough zinc, calcium etc to make up for the antinutrients that inhibit their absorption. Currently eating a lot of red meat which helps with teeth sensitivity. High fiber foods also give me sensitive teeth. Orange juice + meat for a few days make my teeth feel better.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I seem to do really well with homemade spelt sourdough bread, but the jury is still out. I have seemingly random energy crashes and will have to do more experimentation, because I've also gotten these crashes even while avoiding starch completely, so I don't think it's reasonable to attribute it to starch.

Anyway, I use milk kefir as a starter, simply add sea salt and filtered water as well, mix up and ferment for 24 hours before baking in a dutch oven greased with hydrogenated coconut oil.

Spelt being a non-hybridized ancient grain is one thing. Fermenting is another. If we look at grain consumption we have to consider that historically, grains were fermented. Or in the case of corn, nixtamalized -- cooked in calcium hydroxide, which makes the niacin available and also makes the proteins more digestible.

Starch is easily stored and extremely cheap. For convenience, food security and affordability, it's pretty much impossible to beat.

Most of my starch is: organic, non-fortified quick oats, masa harina (in the form of porridge or atole), and homemade sourdough spelt bread.

It would make sense that fermentation significantly pre-digests starch and would therefore leave a lot less potentially undigested when we consume it. And this is also the traditional way of preparing many grains.

Iron fortification of grains is definitely an issue, and one would be hard pressed to find long-term studies on starch that disqualify iron-fortified grains. How many people in any studies on grains are ONLY consuming fermented grains prepared via traditional methods?

However, there may be many pitfalls. I have two dental cavities, the first I've had in over 12 years, after a year or so of eating a lot more starch. Perhaps starch lends itself to sticking to the teeth more, perhaps it's the phytic acid from the oats/masa depleting mineral stores. Who knows. But of course that has concerned me and has made me reconsider adding all this starch into my diet, but I've simply upped my dental care routine for now.

For the record, I have lost about 20 pounds while upping starch intake significantly, and lowering fat intake. 205 pounds at 5'11", down to 180-185 pounds.

Basically I stopped eating cheese and chocolate completely, only use coconut oil on rare occasions, and regularly have spelt sourdough bread, oatmeal with bananas and raisins, and masa harina with hot sauce and salt for flavor. I also stopped fruit juice but still regularly consume whole fresh fruit, such as blueberries, bananas, grapes, and apples. For meat I'll have just about anything. I'm on the fence lately with red meat, as I've been having a lot of it lately, but I'm not so sure that's a great idea because of the high iron content.

The sourdough, for the record, came later into the game. I found out I had cavities when my starch intake was almost exclusively quick oats and masa harina. I would imagine the reduced phytic acid from fermentation would be beneficial for mineral absorption, and just naturally, I've been craving the sourdough more than all other starches for the time being, to the point where I only have been having small amounts of oats and masa.

I may have a potato allergy. Hard to say. I do seem to be extremely sensitive to solanine or any other glykoalkaloid toxins in potatoes because I frequently get a very bitter, metallic, and burning sensation in my mouth when I eat potatoes of any variety. Thoroughly peeling the skin helps, but not always. Depending on how long they were sitting out and how many toxins they started producing, they can be simply inedible to me. I've had other people try the same potatoes that were giving me horrible reactions and they tasted fine to these people, so an allergy is certainly possible.

Otherwise, I'd probably have a bunch of potatoes. Very high quality nutrient profile, and very satiating. Unfortunately this possible allergy makes regularly consuming potatoes impossible for me. So far the sourdough spelt is the winner for me. I am not opposed to the idea that eliminating all starch may be beneficial, but I have lost a lot of weight on high-starch and lower fat, so the idea that starch by default makes you fat does not ring true with my personal experience.

Oh gosh russets can be downright dangerous Jib if you let them sit too long! If they have eyes on them or any green under the skin toss them! I only buy red and purple potatoes and keep them in the fridge. They have more sugar content compared to the starchy russets and require a lot less fat to make them taste good.

Yes grains are well known to cause cavities, you gotta have a lot of calcium to prevent their anti-nutrients and phytic acid from breaking down teeth and bones. They are awful for the skin too.
I have access to fresh baked sourdough and french bread made without yeast and it is a wonderful splurge. I am sure I would lose some pounds too eating it if I strategized right, but it wouldn't be making me muscular. My approach nowadays isn't to be thin it is to be strong without a lot of fat. Jenny Craig offers lots of grain options, but if you are subscribing to Ray Peat and his anti-aging protocol to rev up your metabolism, heal your gut and reduce wrinkles grains are not going to do that. Just like the Blood Type Diet is not a weight loss diet, neither is the Ray Peat diet. That is the point missed on this forum. There are many places you can go to lose weight, but Ray Peat is giving us tips on how to reverse the damage we have done eaty crappy and he says grains are not not going to achieve that goal. Yet so many wanna argue with him and eat their animal food and then go all through this forum asking everybody and anybody to help them figure out what is wrong with them. I just don't understand that.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Your post really ressonates with my experiences. I got a few cavities and sensitive back upper teeth after a long time with whole grains and potatoes. I really Think it is hard to get enough zinc, calcium etc to make up for the antinutrients that inhibit their absorption. Currently eating a lot of red meat which helps with teeth sensitivity. High fiber foods also give me sensitive teeth. Orange juice + meat for a few days make my teeth feel better.

It is very perceptive of you Nighteyes to connect those dots with the grains and sensitive teeth. I get sensitive teeth too when I get on the grain train, especially oats!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

The last part of my rant wasn't aimed at you per se Jib, but rather anyone who it applies to, and they know who they are. I come in peace and just wish some people would make a little more sacrifice for their health. Instead of focusing on their woes why not heed Ray's words, and if it is because you disagree with him, then why are you hear? If you are healthly without complaints have your grains! At the very least acknowledge that grains aren't the "optimal" choice and quit spending so much time trying to figure out what wrong, and say the grains are just worth it all.

 

[Jib]

The last part of my rant wasn't aimed at you per se Jib, but rather anyone who it applies to, and they know who they are. I come in peace and just wish some people would make a little more sacrifice for their health. Instead of focusing on their woes why not heed Ray's words, and if it is because you disagree with him, then why are you hear? If you are healthly without complaints have your grains! At the very least acknowledge that grains aren't the "optimal" choice and quit spending so much time trying to figure out what wrong, and say the grains are just worth it all.

It's safe to say, as another poster mentioned, that starches are a "fallback food," and even properly prepared, are not optimal, at least according to Peat.

The problem is that dairy is a huge issue for many, many people. And excessive liquid as well. It's such a complete food and cheap source of nutrition, not being able to utilize it much (or at all) really throws a wrench into everything. Add fruit juice not agreeing with someone into the mix and we have a real problem as far as taking Peat's advice. Now your only other options are whole fruit, starch, and meat for calories. And we all know that Peat is not a fan of excessive meat consumption for the histamine, iron, and other issues. So now you're basically on a fruitarian diet, which is a tough sell for most people for multiple reasons, and even Peat is not a fan of high fiber consumption.

This is where grains come in. Starch is still a carb, and high carb is still more in line with Peat. The basic Peat principle is: high carb (fruit, preferably), low PUFA, moderate protein. And while Peat is a fan of saturated fat, he has never recommended consuming large amounts of it, and does not seem to believe that large amounts of fat in the diet are compatible with good health. Carbs being the primary fuel source is very obvious in his work, and it's also obvious he prefers OJ, though for many people, large amounts of OJ are also not an option, because it doesn't make them feel good. Excessive liquid is also something Peat has pointed out as extremely problematic and I never understood why he never addressed that in the context of OJ and milk specifically.

I don't think the debates are from people *wanting* to disagree with Peat for the sake of it, but mostly from people who have tried the standard advice and did not do well on it. I would actually say a majority of people here have tried higher milk consumption, and had to discontinue due to issues they were having, digestive or otherwise. I would go so far as to say that lactose is nearly the primary sugar that Peat prefers, based on everything I've read from him, and the fruit sugar is secondary, or equal at best.

When a person is lactose intolerant or allergic to milk proteins, again, it throws a huge wrench into the works. Grains do have a significant amount of protein which also becomes much more bioavailable when fermented. It is not perfect. But for people who don't have any better options, fermented non-hybridized grains are a much safer choice than unfermented hybridized grains.

And are still, technically, preferable to high meat consumption in a Peat context. Tubers may be preferred over grains, but then you have people like me with sensitivities to tubers. Sometimes you just can't win. I get the same reaction even from fresh, firm potatoes with no give, no eyes forming, and no green under the peel, so I'm not sure exactly what I have going on, but it makes large amounts of potato impossible for me to consume comfortably.

So while it seems off-topic, I feel like much of this debate goes back to people's issue with high amounts of dairy. Grains very well may be a fallback food that is sub-optimal, but for some people it may be the only option, for digestive and even financial reasons. I do think in general, unequivocally, people would be better off with traditionally prepared grains.

I'm experimenting with fermenting oats lately. It is well known that fermentation nearly completely eliminates phytic acid and makes proteins more digestible. Grains may be a compromise, but for many people, compromises are the best they can do. I do think there is a very clear and marked difference between hybridized unfermented grains and non-hybridized fermented grains, and in studies, this is a difference that is totally neglected in nearly 100% of cases. In my opinion they might as well be different foods. Incomplete digestion of starches and proteins is likely significantly influenced by fermentation. Just like how cows have multiple stomachs, humans figured out a way to pre-digest their less than optimal food despite having only one stomach.

I would love to be able to boost dairy intake, which would make the necessary sugar intake from fruit much more realistic. In the meantime I will be fermenting my grains, and cutting back a bit on oats while I figure out a way to palatably ferment them, as developing those cavities definitely scared me. I will say that sharply reducing cheese consumption to near zero probably did not help either. I have been making my own reduced fat cheese using 1% milk and kefir grains.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

It's safe to say, as another poster mentioned, that starches are a "fallback food," and even properly prepared, are not optimal, at least according to Peat.

The problem is that dairy is a huge issue for many, many people. And excessive liquid as well. It's such a complete food and cheap source of nutrition, not being able to utilize it much (or at all) really throws a wrench into everything. Add fruit juice not agreeing with someone into the mix and we have a real problem as far as taking Peat's advice. Now your only other options are whole fruit, starch, and meat for calories. And we all know that Peat is not a fan of excessive meat consumption for the histamine, iron, and other issues. So now you're basically on a fruitarian diet, which is a tough sell for most people for multiple reasons, and even Peat is not a fan of high fiber consumption.

This is where grains come in. Starch is still a carb, and high carb is still more in line with Peat. The basic Peat principle is: high carb (fruit, preferably), low PUFA, moderate protein. And while Peat is a fan of saturated fat, he has never recommended consuming large amounts of it, and does not seem to believe that large amounts of fat in the diet are compatible with good health. Carbs being the primary fuel source is very obvious in his work, and it's also obvious he prefers OJ, though for many people, large amounts of OJ are also not an option, because it doesn't make them feel good. Excessive liquid is also something Peat has pointed out as extremely problematic and I never understood why he never addressed that in the context of OJ and milk specifically.

I don't think the debates are from people *wanting* to disagree with Peat for the sake of it, but mostly from people who have tried the standard advice and did not do well on it. I would actually say a majority of people here have tried higher milk consumption, and had to discontinue due to issues they were having, digestive or otherwise. I would go so far as to say that lactose is nearly the primary sugar that Peat prefers, based on everything I've read from him, and the fruit sugar is secondary, or equal at best.

When a person is lactose intolerant or allergic to milk proteins, again, it throws a huge wrench into the works. Grains do have a significant amount of protein which also becomes much more bioavailable when fermented. It is not perfect. But for people who don't have any better options, fermented non-hybridized grains are a much safer choice than unfermented hybridized grains.

And are still, technically, preferable to high meat consumption in a Peat context. Tubers may be preferred over grains, but then you have people like me with sensitivities to tubers. Sometimes you just can't win. I get the same reaction even from fresh, firm potatoes with no give, no eyes forming, and no green under the peel, so I'm not sure exactly what I have going on, but it makes large amounts of potato impossible for me to consume comfortably.

So while it seems off-topic, I feel like much of this debate goes back to people's issue with high amounts of dairy. Grains very well may be a fallback food that is sub-optimal, but for some people it may be the only option, for digestive and even financial reasons. I do think in general, unequivocally, people would be better off with traditionally prepared grains.

I'm experimenting with fermenting oats lately. It is well known that fermentation nearly completely eliminates phytic acid and makes proteins more digestible. Grains may be a compromise, but for many people, compromises are the best they can do. I do think there is a very clear and marked difference between hybridized unfermented grains and non-hybridized fermented grains, and in studies, this is a difference that is totally neglected in nearly 100% of cases. In my opinion they might as well be different foods. Incomplete digestion of starches and proteins is likely significantly influenced by fermentation. Just like how cows have multiple stomachs, humans figured out a way to pre-digest their less than optimal food despite having only one stomach.

I would love to be able to boost dairy intake, which would make the necessary sugar intake from fruit much more realistic. In the meantime I will be fermenting my grains, and cutting back a bit on oats while I figure out a way to palatably ferment them, as developing those cavities definitely scared me. I will say that sharply reducing cheese consumption to near zero probably did not help either. I have been making my own reduced fat cheese using 1% milk and kefir grains.

And see I can understand and respect that, but that isn't what is coming at me quoting Peat and getting arguements about it. Like I said just say It isn't ideal, but it is what I am going to do, not Ray Peat must be wrong.. Everybody keeps approaching starches like "because Peat has his tortilla "splurge" of masa tortillas once in a while then everybody should think it is healthy. Then when Ray Peat has a little belly from his splurges AT 85 YEARS OLD then his science must be flawed. Jib you are not all the threads I am with these ridiculous arguements. There a dozen different Ray Peat clips and quotes I have poated throughout this thread and I can post a dozen more and the arguements would continue. Like you Jib I don't like so many liquids either, not that I have a problem with them, it is just not my preference. I think people like you are here to help the best you can with your experiences, but there are more than a few that dole out some really bad advice.

I am impressed with your cheese making. I made mozzarella a couple of years ago and you have reminded me I need to do that more. Thank you! I think everything you wrote will be helpful for people to hear. Please keep getting in the ring with us Jib to battle it out ?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

And see I can understand and respect that, but that isn't what is coming at me quoting Peat and getting arguements about it. Like I said just say It isn't ideal, but it is what I am going to do, not Ray Peat must be wrong.. Everybody keeps approaching starches like "because Peat has his tortilla "splurge" of masa tortillas once in a while then everybody should think it is healthy. Then when Ray Peat has a little belly from his splurges AT 85 YEARS OLD then his science must be flawed. Jib you are not all the threads I am with these ridiculous arguements. There a dozen different Ray Peat clips and quotes I have poated throughout this thread and I can post a dozen more and the arguements would continue. Like you Jib I don't like so many liquids either, not that I have a problem with them, it is just not my preference. I think people like you are here to help the best you can with your experiences, but there are more than a few that dole out some really bad advice.

I am impressed with your cheese making. I made mozzarella a couple of years ago and you have reminded me I need to do that more. Thank you! I think everything you wrote will be helpful for people to hear. Please keep getting in the ring with us Jib to battle it out ?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Woo hoo! Look what julia posted in my Big Muscles Little Fat post! She actually e-msile Ray Peat about the best way to go about losing fat and got a response back! He said eliminate PUFA's and starches! Thank you julia!

 

[Jib]

And see I can understand and respect that, but that isn't what is coming at me quoting Peat and getting arguements about it. Like I said just say It isn't ideal, but it is what I am going to do, not Ray Peat must be wrong.. Everybody keeps approaching starches like "because Peat has his tortilla "splurge" of masa tortillas once in a while then everybody should think it is healthy. Then when Ray Peat has a little belly from his splurges AT 85 YEARS OLD then his science must be flawed. Jib you are not all the threads I am with these ridiculous arguements. There a dozen different Ray Peat clips and quotes I have poated throughout this thread and I can post a dozen more and the arguements would continue. Like you Jib I don't like so many liquids either, not that I have a problem with them, it is just not my preference. I think people like you are here to help the best you can with your experiences, but there are more than a few that dole out some really bad advice.

I am impressed with your cheese making. I made mozzarella a couple of years ago and you have reminded me I need to do that more. Thank you! I think everything you wrote will be helpful for people to hear. Please keep getting in the ring with us Jib to battle it out ?

I know what you mean. This is similar to people saying Peat recommends gummy bears and ice cream and Coca Cola as dietary staples. Very misguided and for me personally I avoid these things as completely as possible with rare exceptions. As I've delved more into grains, I've accepted this isn't "Peaty" and nowhere does he actively endorse starch consumption -- just that it can be possible to have starch in a healthy diet, though in his opinion it isn't ideal, and other foods are better.

My personal preference is whole fresh fruit or frozen fruit. Blueberries, grapes, cherries, watermelon, pineapple, etc. Just about any fruit. And it does pair extremely well with dairy. My most recent experiments have been mixing/blending kefir with whey and casein protein powder, to make them more digestible via fermentation. I use "secondary fermentation" kefir, meaning the actual kefir grains are not in the batch. You simply use fresh kefir. I blend *that* with the protein powder(s), and then strain.

The whey did not taste very good. Perhaps it could be sweetened and flavored to taste much better. However, it may be in line with what Peat says, that in fermented milk products, the lactic acid is primarily in the whey. I will say that the extra casein powder seemed to make this soft cheese extremely rich, like a very nice cream cheese, but fluffier. The cheese leftover after straining the whey out tastes very good. Almost like whipped cream cheese, if there is such a thing. Pleasant sour flavor that actually is very good mixed with a little jam or natural fruit juice, like the leftover blueberry juice I'm using from this bowl of blueberries I just had.

Getting two cavities really alarmed me. I didn't start the sourdough until more recently, and was mostly doing oatmeal and masa harina, but honestly the two cavities really scared me. It's been many, many years since I've had a cavity. Last time I went to the dentist, I had not gone for 6 years, and my teeth were perfectly fine. So to have gone about a year ago and OK again, but to go just a week ago, and after several months of doing high starch, I have two cavities? Scary. So. Honestly that has gotten me re-thinking things.

If I can find a way to ferment oats so they taste good, I may do that. I am much more wary of unfermented grains now. And I would again agree with Ray that things like white rice are probably less harmful in the long run, despite having less nutrients -- because they also have less anti-nutrients too.

I'm really on the fence with starch. The sourdough spelt bread has been going well, and as I've been making that, I've been having oatmeal a lot less, almost none. Masa harina makes a great drink (atole), and you don't use much for it. Plus, sweetened with cream and sugar, you're still keeping the sugar/starch ratio within reason. I personally like using coconut palm sugar for all my refined sugar needs.

Today I had: Atole with cream and sugar, fresh grapes, a decaf coffee with cream, sugar and collagen, steak, a porkchop, whole grain sourdough bread, kefir cheese, cherries and blueberries. All in all, I felt pretty good today.

I'm trying to remember that, at least for me and my weight loss, high carb and lower fat has been a godsend. I can handle kefir, not so much fresh milk, but I just haven't had a taste for it lately, and as we all know, Peat is not a fan of lactic acid, so maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe my body has had its fill. It does taste much better blended with fruit so maybe the sugar helps with the tendency for lactic acid to cause glycogen depletion.

I forgot to mention I have a friend who got hardcore into McDougall (The Starch Solution) and others, and lost about 50 pounds and is doing much better now. Like Peat said, I don't think starch is necessarily incompatible with a healthy diet. Currently I am trying to find a balance, and see how much starch I can handle, what feels right and what doesn't, and what's beneficial and what's not.

Basics help me the most. And it does seem that high carb, lower fat, and moderate or even high-ish protein (from the right sources) is right in line with everything Peat has suggested. So while I'm figuring things out, sticking to that has helped me. I do have occasional periods where I eat much higher fat but it is not a daily thing like it used to be (fairly copious amounts of cheese and chocolate).

The cheese and chocolate thing is another example of taking Peat out of context, and I got fat for it. Saturated fat good, sugar good, dairy good. So you'd think that all the cheese, chocolate and ice cream in the world should be good for you. That's only one example of how far these things Peat has said can be taken out of context with disastrous results.

So I hear you on that. And there is nothing wrong with experimenting, but I agree it is a mistake to attribute it to Peat or to claim that he "approves" of such things. As I mentioned, his recommendation to a vegan that a vegan diet can be healthy, and he recommended potatoes and mushrooms as high quality sources of vegan protein.

This does not mean Peat recommends everyone be a vegan and that the healthiest diet is a vegan diet. Even Peat himself will not necessarily abide by things he's said or written. He's only human. He can eat gummy bears and ice cream and drink Coke and eat pork rinds and tortillas once in a while without it being a huge deal, but people tend to take that as a blanket endorsement to consume as much of these foods as they want, all the time.

I don't necessarily agree with guys like McDougall or Gregor that are very militant in their approach, but some amount of that can be helpful, such as consciously lowering fat intake or avoiding eating hyper-caloric foods on any kind of regular basis.

I've been reading Peat for a very long time and I made some stupid mistakes like liberally using coconut oil to fry and saute everything, and figured all was well because it's a saturated fat, so that means I can have as much of it as I want.

Surprise, when I sharply limited my fat intake and sharply increased my carb intake, 20 to 25lbs melted off. As you said, however, you can lose weight all sorts of ways. It is worth noting how Peat has recommended low fat dairy to people who are overweight and don't need the extra calories. I heeded that advice and switched from whole milk to 1% and that also was a part of losing a significant amount of weight.

Common sense can elude all of us. I'd say it's actually the rule, not the exception, to forego common sense when you delve into any subject a little too intensely. It's just the way it is. Fortunately I feel like some of my common sense returned. Not all of it :p But enough to stop gaining weight and start moving slowly in the other direction.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I know what you mean. This is similar to people saying Peat recommends gummy bears and ice cream and Coca Cola as dietary staples. Very misguided and for me personally I avoid these things as completely as possible with rare exceptions. As I've delved more into grains, I've accepted this isn't "Peaty" and nowhere does he actively endorse starch consumption -- just that it can be possible to have starch in a healthy diet, though in his opinion it isn't ideal, and other foods are better.

My personal preference is whole fresh fruit or frozen fruit. Blueberries, grapes, cherries, watermelon, pineapple, etc. Just about any fruit. And it does pair extremely well with dairy. My most recent experiments have been mixing/blending kefir with whey and casein protein powder, to make them more digestible via fermentation. I use "secondary fermentation" kefir, meaning the actual kefir grains are not in the batch. You simply use fresh kefir. I blend *that* with the protein powder(s), and then strain.

The whey did not taste very good. Perhaps it could be sweetened and flavored to taste much better. However, it may be in line with what Peat says, that in fermented milk products, the lactic acid is primarily in the whey. I will say that the extra casein powder seemed to make this soft cheese extremely rich, like a very nice cream cheese, but fluffier. The cheese leftover after straining the whey out tastes very good. Almost like whipped cream cheese, if there is such a thing. Pleasant sour flavor that actually is very good mixed with a little jam or natural fruit juice, like the leftover blueberry juice I'm using from this bowl of blueberries I just had.

Getting two cavities really alarmed me. I didn't start the sourdough until more recently, and was mostly doing oatmeal and masa harina, but honestly the two cavities really scared me. It's been many, many years since I've had a cavity. Last time I went to the dentist, I had not gone for 6 years, and my teeth were perfectly fine. So to have gone about a year ago and OK again, but to go just a week ago, and after several months of doing high starch, I have two cavities? Scary. So. Honestly that has gotten me re-thinking things.

If I can find a way to ferment oats so they taste good, I may do that. I am much more wary of unfermented grains now. And I would again agree with Ray that things like white rice are probably less harmful in the long run, despite having less nutrients -- because they also have less anti-nutrients too.

I'm really on the fence with starch. The sourdough spelt bread has been going well, and as I've been making that, I've been having oatmeal a lot less, almost none. Masa harina makes a great drink (atole), and you don't use much for it. Plus, sweetened with cream and sugar, you're still keeping the sugar/starch ratio within reason. I personally like using coconut palm sugar for all my refined sugar needs.

Today I had: Atole with cream and sugar, fresh grapes, a decaf coffee with cream, sugar and collagen, steak, a porkchop, whole grain sourdough bread, kefir cheese, cherries and blueberries. All in all, I felt pretty good today.

I'm trying to remember that, at least for me and my weight loss, high carb and lower fat has been a godsend. I can handle kefir, not so much fresh milk, but I just haven't had a taste for it lately, and as we all know, Peat is not a fan of lactic acid, so maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe my body has had its fill. It does taste much better blended with fruit so maybe the sugar helps with the tendency for lactic acid to cause glycogen depletion.

I forgot to mention I have a friend who got hardcore into McDougall (The Starch Solution) and others, and lost about 50 pounds and is doing much better now. Like Peat said, I don't think starch is necessarily incompatible with a healthy diet. Currently I am trying to find a balance, and see how much starch I can handle, what feels right and what doesn't, and what's beneficial and what's not.

Basics help me the most. And it does seem that high carb, lower fat, and moderate or even high-ish protein (from the right sources) is right in line with everything Peat has suggested. So while I'm figuring things out, sticking to that has helped me. I do have occasional periods where I eat much higher fat but it is not a daily thing like it used to be (fairly copious amounts of cheese and chocolate).

The cheese and chocolate thing is another example of taking Peat out of context, and I got fat for it. Saturated fat good, sugar good, dairy good. So you'd think that all the cheese, chocolate and ice cream in the world should be good for you. That's only one example of how far these things Peat has said can be taken out of context with disastrous results.

So I hear you on that. And there is nothing wrong with experimenting, but I agree it is a mistake to attribute it to Peat or to claim that he "approves" of such things. As I mentioned, his recommendation to a vegan that a vegan diet can be healthy, and he recommended potatoes and mushrooms as high quality sources of vegan protein.

This does not mean Peat recommends everyone be a vegan and that the healthiest diet is a vegan diet. Even Peat himself will not necessarily abide by things he's said or written. He's only human. He can eat gummy bears and ice cream and drink Coke and eat pork rinds and tortillas once in a while without it being a huge deal, but people tend to take that as a blanket endorsement to consume as much of these foods as they want, all the time.

I don't necessarily agree with guys like McDougall or Gregor that are very militant in their approach, but some amount of that can be helpful, such as consciously lowering fat intake or avoiding eating hyper-caloric foods on any kind of regular basis.

I've been reading Peat for a very long time and I made some stupid mistakes like liberally using coconut oil to fry and saute everything, and figured all was well because it's a saturated fat, so that means I can have as much of it as I want.

Surprise, when I sharply limited my fat intake and sharply increased my carb intake, 20 to 25lbs melted off. As you said, however, you can lose weight all sorts of ways. It is worth noting how Peat has recommended low fat dairy to people who are overweight and don't need the extra calories. I heeded that advice and switched from whole milk to 1% and that also was a part of losing a significant amount of weight.

Common sense can elude all of us. I'd say it's actually the rule, not the exception, to forego common sense when you delve into any subject a little too intensely. It's just the way it is. Fortunately I feel like some of my common sense returned. Not all of it :p But enough to stop gaining weight and start moving slowly in the other direction.

To your point of your McDougall starch diet friend, as i have said you can lose weight eating Twinkies and just as well going low carb. Losing weight should be a side effect of getting healthy not the goal at whatever cost.The Mcdougallers are gonna look a lot older than us "Peaters" and with as many health issues as the low carbers so I am not impressed.

I also made the mistake of eating ice cream and partaking in other things without knowing more and gained weight quick. I now make my own ice cream without cream or egg yolks and quit dabbling in those coconut fried masa chips. They do not make you lose weight! I feel the thing that has gotten me this far with food is me food logging. As myself has gotten use to 'Peaty" ways, I am happy to report things that made my heart beat uncomfortably out of my chest, like milk, doesnt happen to me anymore. Discovering my body now loves fresh squeezed orange juice, as long as it is strained and has added sugar and salt, is like something sent from above! There is no shortcuts doing this "Peat" stuff and it does take a long time for some people to get back to anything close to normal, but even longer if you keep fooling yourself that bad things are good. I just often think if we were all stranded on an island with only eating the basics and get sunshine and fresh air with a dip in the cool salty ocean how many would get better real quick. ?

 

[Steve]

I also made the mistake of eating ice cream and partaking in other things without knowing more and gained weight quick. I now make my own ice cream without cream or egg yolks and quit dabbling in those coconut fried masa chips.

So even if you eat this way and eliminate starch you still have to watch calories by eating low fat?
I noticed some of your recipes you posted seemed high-fat: peppers stuffed with cheese and beef, chicken wings with alfredo sauce.
So I'm still confused. Just about everything I like is high fat, but it sounds like that won't work if you want to lose fat and get strong.
A life of lean protein and fruit/sugar sounds kind of miserable.

Is there a certain fat % you should aim for each day?
When I eat my normal way I'm usually above 40%.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

So even if you eat this way and eliminate starch you still have to watch calories by eating low fat?
I noticed some of your recipes you posted seemed high-fat: peppers stuffed with cheese and beef, chicken wings with alfredo sauce.
So I'm still confused. Just about everything I like is high fat, but it sounds like that won't work if you want to lose fat and get strong.
A life of lean protein and fruit/sugar sounds kind of miserable.

Is there a certain fat % you should aim for each day?
When I eat my normal way I'm usually above 40%.

You and me both Steve! I am not going to live on liquds, though I can see how handy it is for non-cooks and people who aren't "foodies" like myself. If you aren't losing weight or trying to gain weight then fat is not too much of an issue. In my case, being older, I get away with higher fat meals by having not eating grains and eating smaller portions. When I have have those Alfredo wing I would have them earlier in the day for lunch or an early 5:00 dinner. I boil the fat out of those wings before broiling them which gets even more fat out and wouldn't use as much of the sauce as that pic for my family. Those wings are 75% less fat or more than anything you would get at a restaurant, andvjustvas filling swappingvoutvthe breading and replacing it with all that sweet fruit aka tomatoes. If you are losing weight, strategizing with portions and timing is everything. Those stuffed peppers are about 1.5 ounces of cheese, a half ounce of cream cheese and less than a quarter cup of cooked short rib chunks and a lot of onion and pepper in each one. The combination is decadent and filling, especially paired with half of a Mexican Coke. If you wanna be a foodie, then portion control, not calorie counting is gonna be key to losing weight. Which means eating that second stuffed pepper will have to wait until tomorrow :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I am cleaning out my phone and saw this. I don't know if I posted it here before, but again Ray says not to pair starches with white sugar.

 

[Steve]

I am cleaning out my phone and saw this. I don't know if I posted it here before, but again Ray says not to pair starches with white sugar.

That's one we looked at earlier in this thread or another. He says that due to micronutrients from what I remember.
You don't want to eat sugar which has no micronutrients combined with starch which was has few micronutrients.
If you are going to emphasize refined sugar in your meal then you want to make sure the rest of the meal is highly nutritious to balance it out.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

That's one we looked at earlier in this thread or another. He says that due to micronutrients from what I remember.
You don't want to eat sugar which has no micronutrients combined with starch which was has few micronutrients.
If you are going to emphasize refined sugar in your meal then you want to make sure the rest of the meal is highly nutritious to balance it out.

I think it also has to do with pairing sugars and starches creating fat and blood sugar problems. I would still like to hear an answer from him as to, I think it your question Steve, about pairing starches with fruit?

 

[Steve]

"Feeding animals a normal diet with the addition of Coca-Cola, or with a similar amount of sucrose, has been found to let them increase their calorie intake by 50% without increasing their weight gain (Bukowiecki, et al., 1983). Although plain sucrose can alleviate the metabolic suppression of an average diet, the effect of sugars in the diet is much more likely to be healthful in the long run when they are associated with an abundance of minerals, as in milk and fruit, which provide potassium and calcium and other protective nutrients."

 

[Steve]

“I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.” - RP

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Feeding animals a normal diet with the addition of Coca-Cola, or with a similar amount of sucrose, has been found to let them increase their calorie intake by 50% without increasing their weight gain (Bukowiecki, et al., 1983). Although plain sucrose can alleviate the metabolic suppression of an average diet, the effect of sugars in the diet is much more likely to be healthful in the long run when they are associated with an abundance of minerals, as in milk and fruit, which provide potassium and calcium and other protective nutrients."

I wasn't disagreeing with your statement Steve I was adding to. So much good gets lost in texting.

Here are a few more short quotes from Ray Peat on starches, sugars and weight gain.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.” - RP

That is exactly right too Steve about whole milk being fattening. He says it is very good for people trying to gain weight. I grew up on whole milk and was rail thin. I don't drink a lot of milk period, as it is too filling. Plus I am leary of the added vitamin A in all skim milk. I have been leaning into cheese more lately.

 

[Hgreen56]

what is a good mineral balance anyway?