Starch - The Delicious Devil

[Eberhardt]

Ok are you pro starch?
If you are young.....

Neither? I see more arguments against it then pro but personally it's not really a question as I need to be doing those things that my body dont perform without them. I think Peat is mostly against undercooked starch. (undercooked in general) - I dont think the permeability problem is so much a prolem in healthy individuals. Though if I eat pure potatoestarch I get some reactions that might be caused by it. And I dont think all starch are created equal. I take supplemental white sugar besides it and also eat fruit though. not pure starch. But maybe 70/80% of my carbs are from starch. I think the "if you're young" part says a lot. I think it depends on metabolism and gut health to a large degree. And not sure all people are created equal when it comes to starch. From an evolutionary perspectie (which isnt very peaty in some ways) its hard to think we are not well adapted to starch (amylaze and the long history- now being verified to at least 600.000 years), but that doesnt maybe make it optimal. I talkk warmly of sugar and eat mostl starch :P

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

on starch. My experience is that starch is so much more satiating I cant have only sugars if I am doing anything physical. working manual labour or carrying a backpack. going to the gym without starch is not possible, just completel gassed out then. No other noticable bad effects though. maybe a bit worse digestion. But then again my starch is only well-boilded organic potatoes and some organic white rice. and a random a banana. thats it

I feel starches slow down digestion too. It is very satisfying and relaxing, but anytime I was trying to lose some weight and threw a starch in the mix, even a little, would severely slow down my progress. Now doing potato mono fasts with roasted red potatoes and eating them without any oils was very energizing and I would lose a pound a day easily, without losing musle. I never got hungry either. I often think to do one again as a fun post.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Neither? I see more arguments against it then pro but personally it's not really a question as I need to be doing those things that my body dont perform without them. I think Peat is mostly against undercooked starch. (undercooked in general) - I dont think the permeability problem is so much a prolem in healthy individuals. Though if I eat pure potatoestarch I get some reactions that might be caused by it. And I dont think all starch are created equal. I take supplemental white sugar besides it and also eat fruit though. not pure starch. But maybe 70/80% of my carbs are from starch. I think the "if you're young" part says a lot. I think it depends on metabolism and gut health to a large degree. And not sure all people are created equal when it comes to starch. From an evolutionary perspectie (which isnt very peaty in some ways) its hard to think we are not well adapted to starch (amylaze and the long history- now being verified to at least 600.000 years), but that doesnt maybe make it optimal. I talkk warmly of sugar and eat mostl starch :P

I don't why only part of my response posted, but yes I was trying to say, if you are young you can utilize starches better. I lived on homemade mashed potatoes and gravy and croissants all through my 20's and was extremely underweight. That would never happen now!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Neither? I see more arguments against it then pro but personally it's not really a question as I need to be doing those things that my body dont perform without them. I think Peat is mostly against undercooked starch. (undercooked in general) - I dont think the permeability problem is so much a prolem in healthy individuals. Though if I eat pure potatoestarch I get some reactions that might be caused by it. And I dont think all starch are created equal. I take supplemental white sugar besides it and also eat fruit though. not pure starch. But maybe 70/80% of my carbs are from starch. I think the "if you're young" part says a lot. I think it depends on metabolism and gut health to a large degree. And not sure all people are created equal when it comes to starch. From an evolutionary perspectie (which isnt very peaty in some ways) its hard to think we are not well adapted to starch (amylaze and the long history- now being verified to at least 600.000 years), but that doesnt maybe make it optimal. I talkk warmly of sugar and eat mostl starch :P

I never ate sugar until discovering Ray Peat and I am surprised how well it works for weight loss and energy. It has worked wonders for many things. I am the oldest in my household and every calls me the "Eveready Bunny". My son who is in his 20's says I exhaust him ?

 

[Apple]

I don't why only part of my response posted, but yes I was trying to say, if you are young you can utilize starches better. I lived on homemade mashed potatoes and gravy and croissants all through my 20's and was extremely underweight. That would never happen now!

Interesting...What is your ratio proteins/fat/sugar (no starch) ?
What is your proteins ratio of dairy vs meat ?
I just can't figure out how to maintain(gain) weight on a no starch diet....

 

[Eberhardt]

I never ate sugar until discovering Ray Peat and I am surprised how well it works for weight loss and energy. It has worked wonders for many things. I am the oldest in my household and every calls me the "Eveready Bunny". My son who is in his 20's says I exhaust him ?

I have to get to sleep now.... but: agree sugar works. for me it just never worked alone. But are you sure your twenties diet wouldnt work? Not saying you should do it though. And about my potatoe eating - I eat very little fat and only coconut oil and organic butter. And one 250gram package of butter and one 250g bottle of coconutoil lasts me more then 6 months ! I agree its relaxing. for me it doesnt mess up digetion. actually the oposite. I have regular bowelmovemnts twice a day, but if I go on sugar only I get very loose and uneven digestion. I have the same. Never ate much sugar until peat . could go years without. still can but now I eat it to taste and stop. Not sure if its optimal but its what I do. About everready bunny... that reminds me about how do you feel sugar/starch affects libido?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Interesting...What is your ratio proteins/fat/sugar (no starch) ?
What is your proteins ratio of dairy vs meat ?
I just can't figure out how to maintain(gain) weight on a no starch diet....

It is harder to put weight on with no starch. I was 106 pounds in my 20's compared to a muscular 152 now. Starches or sugars alone will take the pounds off. In my 30's when I started eating meats with starches is when I FINALLY gained weight and muscle. There was an interesting phenomenon with prisoners "back in the day" who were only given potatoes for long periods of time, no butter or anything else with them, and they came to the conclusion that JUST eating "potatoes will make a fat man skinny and skinny man fatter". If I were trying to put weight like I needed to in my 20's, I would stick with only potatoes as my starch source and eat a lot of fatty grass fed rib eye steaks and drink whole milk. Use your sugar in the form of fruits, white sugar might rev up your metabolism a little too much.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Interesting...What is your ratio proteins/fat/sugar (no starch) ?
What is your proteins ratio of dairy vs meat ?
I just can't figure out how to maintain(gain) weight on a no starch diet....

My ratio of protein at 57 is gonna be different than a much younger person's. When you are older you need more protein than younger people. I shoot for minimum of 70 grams of protein and upwards of 120+ on some days. It is easy to do if all you are eating is protein and sugar, but very hard to do if you are satiated with a pacifier of starches. The more protein you consume the more sugar you need. I try not to overthink it as much as I use to with exactness. My diet is ever changing hense the name Rinse & RePeat. Now since finally finding a good variety of Italian cheeses made with rennet only those are my new favorite meals :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have to get to sleep now.... but: agree sugar works. for me it just never worked alone. But are you sure your twenties diet wouldnt work? Not saying you should do it though. And about my potatoe eating - I eat very little fat and only coconut oil and organic butter. And one 250gram package of butter and one 250g bottle of coconutoil lasts me more then 6 months ! I agree its relaxing. for me it doesnt mess up digetion. actually the oposite. I have regular bowelmovemnts twice a day, but if I go on sugar only I get very loose and uneven digestion. I have the same. Never ate much sugar until peat . could go years without. still can but now I eat it to taste and stop. Not sure if its optimal but its what I do. About everready bunny... that reminds me about how do you feel sugar/starch affects libido?

Yes get to sleep! In short I think fats and starches do nothing for libido, fruits and seafoods are the "sexy foods" ?

 

[Steve]

Hey I am not complaining, it is adding starch to that list that creates the problem. You gotta pick one on Ray Peat, sugar OR starch NOT BOTH or yes you will get fat. Again on my post lose Fat Not Pounds you can SEE the difference in my body composition eating starches vs sugar. Eating starches I was "thin" too, it is called "skinny fat". Eating sugar and protein I am strong and still fiting into the same size small.

Lose Fat Not Pounds & Seeing Is Believing (before & after pics)

"In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference." Ray...

raypeatforum.com

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

I have only heard him say to pair sugars with protein and starches with fat. I have only heard not to pair sugar with starches. How does those two together not equal a cookie? I will have to do some investigating on why he would say that ?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have only heard him say to pair sugars with protein and starches with fat. I have only heard not to pair sugar with starches. How does those two together not equal a cookie? I will have to do some investigating on why he would say that ?

Here is one very good one for this thread, which I think posted I many pages ago, where Ray Peat talks about how starches aren't incompatible with good health, but they aren't recommended when higher quality foods are available. Ray also talks about how starches create obesity, not sugar.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

"After decades of “education” to promote eating starchy foods, obesity is a bigger problem than ever, and more people are dying of diabetes than previously. The age-specific incidence of most cancers is increasing, too, and there is evidence that starch, such as pasta, contributes to breast cancer, and possibly other types of cancer.

The epidemiology would appear to suggest that complex carbohydrates cause diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. If the glycemic index is viewed in terms of the theory that hyperglycemia, by way of “glucotoxicity,” causes the destruction of proteins by glycation, which is seen in diabetes and old age, that might seem simple and obvious."-Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

Here is a very good one minute clip with Ray Peat talking about starches very negatively.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FcPEc1fH5dA

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is a very good one minute clip with Ray Peat talking about starches very negatively.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FcPEc1fH5dA

Here is another about starches causing illness and accelerated aging.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e6OS_qvnY5A

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

In this clip Ray Peat talks about starch being pure glucose and being stored as fat.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S2KAGuSttCI

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is a Ray Peat quote on not combining starch with sugar....

 

[Steve]

Here is a Ray Peat quote on not combining starch with sugar....

That quote was a little confusing, so he was asked about it in another thread:

What's Wrong With Sugar And Starch Combining

A dash of black pepper can arrest insulin spike and it can also act as a digestive enzyme.. And also makes food tastier

raypeatforum.com

Here's Ray's response to me inquiring about combining sugars & starches.
"It’s just a matter of getting the essential nutrients, when lots of your calories are coming from pure sugar; it’s the same when a diet contains a lot of starches or fats, they have to be supplemented with rich sources of vitamins and minerals."

I'm sure I have some notes elsewhere too where he mentions that fruit (fructose) is protective when eaten with or before a meal that is known to raise insulin such as meat & rice. The fructose blunts the insulin effect.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This quote about picking one, sugar or starch, confused me.........doesn't sound accurate after reading Ray's information.
I think he recommends eating fruit with a starch if you're going to have the starch as the fructose prevents the insulin going too high.
""Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten......"

It seems to me that if you are going to have starch then have some fruit with it. I think Kate Deering also recommends this with her book based on Ray's work.
Does that sound right to you?

Here is your quote in it's entirety.....

“Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. Eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten. The obesity itself then becomes an additional physiological factor; the fat cells create something analogous to an inflammatory state. There isn’t anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches. For example, fruits have many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch. Bread and pasta consumption are strongly associated with the occurrence of diabetes, fruit consumption has a strong inverse association.”

 

[Jib]

I seem to do really well with homemade spelt sourdough bread, but the jury is still out. I have seemingly random energy crashes and will have to do more experimentation, because I've also gotten these crashes even while avoiding starch completely, so I don't think it's reasonable to attribute it to starch.

Anyway, I use milk kefir as a starter, simply add sea salt and filtered water as well, mix up and ferment for 24 hours before baking in a dutch oven greased with hydrogenated coconut oil.

Spelt being a non-hybridized ancient grain is one thing. Fermenting is another. If we look at grain consumption we have to consider that historically, grains were fermented. Or in the case of corn, nixtamalized -- cooked in calcium hydroxide, which makes the niacin available and also makes the proteins more digestible.

Starch is easily stored and extremely cheap. For convenience, food security and affordability, it's pretty much impossible to beat.

Most of my starch is: organic, non-fortified quick oats, masa harina (in the form of porridge or atole), and homemade sourdough spelt bread.

It would make sense that fermentation significantly pre-digests starch and would therefore leave a lot less potentially undigested when we consume it. And this is also the traditional way of preparing many grains.

Iron fortification of grains is definitely an issue, and one would be hard pressed to find long-term studies on starch that disqualify iron-fortified grains. How many people in any studies on grains are ONLY consuming fermented grains prepared via traditional methods?

However, there may be many pitfalls. I have two dental cavities, the first I've had in over 12 years, after a year or so of eating a lot more starch. Perhaps starch lends itself to sticking to the teeth more, perhaps it's the phytic acid from the oats/masa depleting mineral stores. Who knows. But of course that has concerned me and has made me reconsider adding all this starch into my diet, but I've simply upped my dental care routine for now.

For the record, I have lost about 20 pounds while upping starch intake significantly, and lowering fat intake. 205 pounds at 5'11", down to 180-185 pounds.

Basically I stopped eating cheese and chocolate completely, only use coconut oil on rare occasions, and regularly have spelt sourdough bread, oatmeal with bananas and raisins, and masa harina with hot sauce and salt for flavor. I also stopped fruit juice but still regularly consume whole fresh fruit, such as blueberries, bananas, grapes, and apples. For meat I'll have just about anything. I'm on the fence lately with red meat, as I've been having a lot of it lately, but I'm not so sure that's a great idea because of the high iron content.

The sourdough, for the record, came later into the game. I found out I had cavities when my starch intake was almost exclusively quick oats and masa harina. I would imagine the reduced phytic acid from fermentation would be beneficial for mineral absorption, and just naturally, I've been craving the sourdough more than all other starches for the time being, to the point where I only have been having small amounts of oats and masa.

I may have a potato allergy. Hard to say. I do seem to be extremely sensitive to solanine or any other glykoalkaloid toxins in potatoes because I frequently get a very bitter, metallic, and burning sensation in my mouth when I eat potatoes of any variety. Thoroughly peeling the skin helps, but not always. Depending on how long they were sitting out and how many toxins they started producing, they can be simply inedible to me. I've had other people try the same potatoes that were giving me horrible reactions and they tasted fine to these people, so an allergy is certainly possible.

Otherwise, I'd probably have a bunch of potatoes. Very high quality nutrient profile, and very satiating. Unfortunately this possible allergy makes regularly consuming potatoes impossible for me. So far the sourdough spelt is the winner for me. I am not opposed to the idea that eliminating all starch may be beneficial, but I have lost a lot of weight on high-starch and lower fat, so the idea that starch by default makes you fat does not ring true with my personal experience.