Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

[Nigluva]

What content of cis:trans isomer is this mk4 product?

I see that it is claimed to be all trans in another thread

 

[Healthia]

You’ll need to experiment since everyone has different levels of D, k, magnesium and calcium but I would venture to say that those would be the 4 you should experiment with. Since Vitamin k acts as a traffic cop by telling the body where calcium should be directed (mostly into bones and teeth) there may be a chance that there is little
Calcium left over for muscles and that might be why you are having the strange contractions. A good place to start would be to take 1,000 to 2,000 mg per day of calcium for a week and see if that evens things out (Ray recommends calcium carbonate). Btw I did the exact same thing as you when I had my tricep flutters... I took various amounts of magnesium thinking that would relax the spasm. It did nothing. Also get your vitamin d levels checked.

You’ll need to experiment since everyone has different levels of D, k, magnesium and calcium but I would venture to say that those would be the 4 you should experiment with. Since Vitamin k acts as a traffic cop by telling the body where calcium should be directed (mostly into bones and teeth) there may be a chance that there is little
Calcium left over for your muscles and that might be why you are having the contractions. Try 1,000 to 2,000 mg per day of calcium for a week and see if that evens things out (Ray recommends calcium carbonate). Btw I did the exact same thing as you when I had my tricep flutters... I took various amounts of magnesium thinking that would relax the spasm. It did nothing. Also get your vitamin d levels checked.

You’ll need to experiment since everyone has different levels of D, k, magnesium and calcium but I would venture to say that those would be the 4 you should experiment with. Since Vitamin k acts as a traffic cop by telling the body where calcium should be directed (mostly into bones and teeth) there may be a chance that there is little
Calcium left over for your muscles and that might be why you are having the contractions. Try 1,000 to 2,000 mg per day of calcium for a week and see if that evens things out (Ray recommends calcium carbonate). Btw I did the exact same thing as you when I had my tricep flutters... I took various amounts of magnesium thinking that would relax the spasm. It did nothing. Also get your vitamin d levels checked.

And yes D and K should be taken at separate times just as you shouldn’t take copper, zinc, magnesium or calcium at the same
Time.

You’ll need to experiment since everyone has different levels of D, k, magnesium and calcium but I would venture to say that those would be the 4 you should experiment with. Since Vitamin k acts as a traffic cop by telling the body where calcium should be directed (mostly into bones and teeth) there may be a chance that there is little
Calcium left over for your muscles and that might be why you are having the contractions. Try 1,000 to 2,000 mg per day of calcium for a week and see if that evens things out (Ray recommends calcium carbonate). Btw I did the exact same thing as you when I had my tricep flutters... I took various amounts of magnesium thinking that would relax the spasm. It did nothing. Also get your vitamin d levels checked. There is much interplay between D and K and calcium and you’ll be flying in the dark if you don’t know your D level. If your D deficient while taking that much K that may cause issues. General rule of thumb is 200-250 mcg of Vitamin K for each 1,000 of Vitamin D. If you’re interested in this kind of stuff read
Vitamin K2 And The Calcium Paradox by Kate Rheaume-Bleue.

And yes D and K should be taken at separate times just as you shouldn’t take copper, zinc, magnesium or calcium at the same
Time.

Thank you, interesting.

It's annoying that all these potential deficiencies have similar outcomes.

The first step I've taken is reducing vitamin k slightly, then I'm going to experiment with increasing calcium first, then d3, then mag.

Q: What would happen if d3 is too low relative to k2? I'm only taking 2500IU d3 relative to 5mg k2. So that's pretty low I guess. My blood levels are approx 50ng/ml at last test - I know approx 60-80 is ideal according to several studies including the sleep studies of gominak.

Will k2 deplete existing blood levels of d3?

Oh one last thing ... another thing I have is a weird tingly sensation in my chest/heart area about 10 minutes after taking mk4

If I had to do it all over again (dosing with Vitamin D, magnesium, calcium and K2) I would have researched more. Instead I ended up with muscle tremors for 5+ months, horrible pain in my joints from Vitamin D putting calcium in joints and most likely arteries as well.

Thank you, interesting.

It's annoying that all these potential deficiencies have similar outcomes.

The first step I've taken is reducing vitamin k slightly, then I'm going to experiment with increasing calcium first, then d3, then mag.

Q: What would happen if d3 is too low relative to k2? I'm only taking 2500IU d3 relative to 5mg k2. So that's pretty low I guess. My blood levels are approx 50ng/ml at last test - I know approx 60-80 is ideal according to several studies including the sleep studies of gominak.

Will k2 deplete existing blood levels of d3?

Oh one last thing ... another thing I have is a weird tingly sensation in my chest/heart area about 10 minutes after taking mk4

as far as I know K2 doesn’t deplete D3 or Vice a versa I think in your case it might have to do with calcium transport and deposit.

One of the benefits vitamin D3 provides is helping you ABSORB calcium. However, With the aid of D3 (but without the aid of K2) your body will put calcium in unwanted places. K2 directs the calcium to your skeleton, while preventing it from being deposited where you don't want it -- i.e., your organs, joint spaces, and arteries.

Vitamin K2 activates a protein hormone called osteocalcin, produced by osteoblasts, which is needed to bind calcium into the matrix of your bone. Osteocalcin also appears to help prevent calcium from depositing into your arteries.

You can think of vitamin D as the gatekeeper, controlling who gets in (calcium), and vitamin K as the traffic cop, directing the traffic (calcium) to where it needs to go.

Lots of traffic -- but no traffic cop -- means clogging, crowding, and chaos everywhere!

In other words, without the help of vitamin K2, the calcium that your vitamin D so effectively lets in might be working AGAINST you -- by building up your coronary arteries, tendons, and other soft tissue rather than your bones and teeth.

There is even evidence that the safety of vitamin D is dependent on vitamin K, and that vitamin D toxicity (although very rare with the D3 form) is actually caused by vitamin K2 deficiency.

How does all this play into your muscle tremors? I’m not sure exactly, but it could be that since K2 is directing your calcium into your bones that there is not enough left over for your muscles. Calcium in part controls muscle contractions. If you want to maintain your high K2 supplementation you’ll need to balance your ratios of D3, K2, magnesium and calcium (Also, vitamin A plays a role in your bodies use of Vitamin D). My two cents, increase calcium intake to 1,500-2,500 mg per day without changing your other intake of supplements. That way if the tremors go away you’ll know it was an imbalance of calcium. Next get your D3 blood level checked. Then read that book I Recomended earlier in this thread.

 

[ddjd]

does anyone know anything about the different methods of manufacturing k2 mk4 ??? what material is it sourced from?

 

[Healthia]

does anyone know anything about the different methods of manufacturing k2 mk4 ??? what material is it sourced from?

To my knowledge most K2 MK4 is synthetic but there are naturally sourced suppliers for K2 MK7. I believe Jarrow has a formula sourced from Natto. This website has some great recommendations of supplements for Peat people: Directory of foods and supplements without questionable additives - Toxinless

 

[ddjd]

I am pretty sure I narrowed it down to the vitamin K of all my supplements that was causing the hair loss. And that is all forms of vitamin K, not just Kuinone, but oral forms too. I was taking one to two drops of Kuinone dissolved somewhere on my torso before bed.

Over time I believe the reason this was causing me hair loss was increased cortisol production from low blood sugar. I was testing my blood sugar at the time, and did not get low readings, but I have a feeling there was localized low blood sugar that was increasing cortisol production and leading to hair loss. I just recently did a stint of higher protein in my diet, and I got the same hair loss as with the Kuinone supplementation.

Also, while on the kuinone, my hair just felt...off; dry, brittle. I remember when I went off it, my hair over the course of a week got thicker and went back to its normal luxuriousness. Also I had regrowth on the sides where it had receded the most. Vitamin K also increases testosterone quite a bit, and I know the whole DHT theory for hair loss has been explained away, but perhaps that was also a factor. I am not sure. I still use the Kuinone every once in awhile, but I definitely notice the next day my hair feels different.

were you taking vit A and D alongside the k2?

 

[ddjd]

To my knowledge most K2 MK4 is synthetic but there are naturally sourced suppliers for K2 MK7. I believe Jarrow has a formula sourced from Natto. This website has some great recommendations of supplements for Peat people: Directory of foods and supplements without questionable additives - Toxinless

i would never take mk7

 

[Tarmander]

were you taking vit A and D alongside the k2?

CAn't remember...I was definitely eating liver a lot though.

 

[johnwester130]

mk4 is from tobacco

Tobacco is also the highest source of coq10 of any plant , and I remember reading that mk4 can replace coq10

 

[Dave Clark]

I didn't find anything in a search, but there is a supplement called Annatto- GG, by Designs For Health, that is an extract containing geranylgeraniol from annatto seeds. Would there be any benefit to using this with a Kuinone, or would it be redundant? Not sure of what is in the product, the label doesn't show any adverse ingredients like PUFA, etc.

 

[drlobster]

My resting heart rate (measured by fitbit for a daily average) went up by 7bpm while on k2 mk4. From 52bpm to 59pm

It went up to this within a few days, stayed there for about 3 weeks while I was taking mk4, then went back down to 52bpm in a few days when I went off mk4.

Any idea what the mechanism of action for this could be?

Is it a good thing?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

It's been repeated on here some times too. The face widening isn't always a desirable effect for attractiveness

Wide + lean face is desirable. FWHR: Facial Width to Height Ratio.
Wide mandible + minimal masseter hypertrophy + gonial angle close to 90% = angularity effect.

If one already has a 'wide face', then making it wore wider may indeed have detrimental effect on attractiveness. But for someone with a narrow jaw, it should be ideal.

I'm curious how can K2 mega-dosing affects the mandible. Does it actually make it wider, it does it just make the areas around the ramus thicker?
Does it also affect gonial angle?

 

[baccheion]

Wide + lean face is desirable. FWHR: Facial Width to Height Ratio.
Wide mandible + minimal masseter hypertrophy + gonial angle close to 90% = angularity effect.

If one already has a 'wide face', then making it wore wider may indeed have detrimental effect on attractiveness. But for someone with a narrow jaw, it should be ideal.

I'm curious how can K2 mega-dosing affects the mandible. Does it actually make it wider, it does it just make the areas around the ramus thicker?
Does it also affect gonial angle?

Megadose amounts increased width at my zygomatic arches as many said.

Maxilla being pulled forward to increase mandibular descent/angle requires something like mewing + bone turnover. There's some theory HGH would result in such turnover/remodeling.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@baccheion Excellent. I already have decent zygos, a little more width would be awesome.
I am also mewing, but struggle with keeping it a consistent habit.

 

[Jing]

Megadose amounts increased width at my zygomatic arches as many said.

Maxilla being pulled forward to increase mandibular descent/angle requires something like mewing + bone turnover. There's some theory HGH would result in such turnover/remodeling.

how much is megadose?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@Jing You can easily megadose with Kuinone.

 

[Jing]

@Jing You can easily megadose with Kuinone.

Yh I know I'm asking how many mgs did he use.

 

[baccheion]

how much is megadose?

15 mg orally 2x/day. Sometimes 3x.

Lookism forums recommend 30 mg 3x/day with 10,000 IU D3 and calcium + magnesium (if not already present in diet). I'm guessing gelatin/collagen would also be a good addition due to the nature of vitamin K's effects.

 

[Nigluva]

mk4 is from tobacco

Tobacco is also the highest source of coq10 of any plant , and I remember reading that mk4 can replace coq10

To my knowledge most K2 MK4 is synthetic but there are naturally sourced suppliers for K2 MK7. I believe Jarrow has a formula sourced from Natto. This website has some great recommendations of supplements for Peat people: Directory of foods and supplements without questionable additives - Toxinless

Guys, Idealabs and Thorne are from geraniol. Healthnatura mk4 is from natto (yes, they confirmed it to me). So it sounds like most is from natural sources. I was surprised healthnatura said theirs is from natto because I thought it was mostly mk7 in natto.

Anyways, my Thorne bottle just ran out. I am wondering if getting one of these less expensive brands is a good idea. Unsure.

 

[Nigluva]

i would never take mk7

Why?

 

[brix]

Is there any reason Kuinone (or any vitamin k2 supplement) would cause cracking joints?

My knees are pop and creak when I walk, and seem worse with k2 supplementation? Theoretically, it should help with this due to reversing calcification.

If it is not k2, what would cause joints to be stiff and crack?