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Progestene - Liquid Progesterone (bioidentical)

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Given the number of progesterone supplements on the market and the familiarity of most people with Progest-E, I am not going to post a big list of studies on this one. I think Peat has done a very exhaustive job of collecting the proper scientific references on progesterone, so I will defer to him.
    Progestene is different from other progesterone supplements on the market due to the carrier mechanism it uses. Similarly to StressNon and Pansterone, Progestene used a mixture of DMSO and ethanol. The reason for using DMSO is that aside from assuring almost 100% topical absorption, DMSO seems to potentiate the effects of steroids. This should further increase the effects of the progesterone dose you absorb from the supplement.
    Dimethyl sulfoxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "...DMSO is thought to increase the effects of blood thinners, steroids, heart medicines, sedatives, and other drugs."

    Some words on the importance of progesterone to BOTH females and males.
    Progesterone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "...Since most progesterone in males is created during testicular production of testosterone, and most in females by the ovaries, the shutting down (whether by natural or chemical means), or removal, of those inevitably causes a considerable reduction in progesterone levels. Previous concentration upon the role of progestogens in female reproduction, when progesterone was simply considered a "female hormone", obscured the significance of progesterone elsewhere in both sexes. The tendency for progesterone to have a regulatory effect, the presence of progesterone receptors in many types of body tissue, and the pattern of deterioration (or tumor formation) in many of those increasing in later years when progesterone levels have dropped, is prompting widespread research into the potential value of maintaining progesterone levels in both males and females."

    Note: This product contains raw material(s) meant for external use only, in cosmetic or other formulations designed for such external use.

    ***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
    Progestene is a liquid supplement providing bioidentical, high-purity progesterone (USP grade). The multiple benefits of progesterone have been extensively researched over the last century by leading scientists including Dr. Ray Peat. Some of the better known effects of progesterone include estrogen control, oxidative metabolism support, brain health and memory support, skin health support, eye health support, breast / uterine / ovarian health support, thyroid support, etc. Studies show that progesterone (just like pregnenolone and DHEA) levels steeply decline during aging and drop by over 90% in menopausal women, and by over 60% in men over 60. As such, it is considered as one of the steroids of youth and a number of benefits have been attributed to restoring it to youthful levels.

    Servings per container: about 30
    Each serving (12 drops) contains the following ingredients:
    Progesterone, USP - 20mg

    Other ingredients: SFA esters, ethanol
    The product is intended and sanctioned for external use only.

    The recommended method of administration is using the built-in dropper to place several drops on a body part (preferably without hair) and then rub it in gently. Studies show that healthy, young women produce 15mg - 20mg progesterone daily. As such, this is the suggested daily dose of Progestene. Since progesterone can be highly sedative (especially in males) it is recommended that Progestene be taken in several smaller split doses throughout the day. In addition, please take into consideration its sedative effects before driving or operating machinery.

    REFERENCES:

    Enhanced Bioavailability And Tissue Effects Of Steroids Dissolved In Dmso
    DMSO makes transdermal steroid absorption close to 100%


    Treatment of postmenopausal women with topical progesterone creams and gels: are they effective? - PubMed - NCBI
    "...Despite these low serum levels, salivary and capillary blood levels are very high and a protective endometrium has been reported in a limited number of studies. Topical alcohol-based, but not water-based, gels appear to yield luteal-phase serum progesterone levels but studies with these preparations are scant. Long-term studies with percutaneous progesterone creams and gels are likely to provide valuable information for treatment of postmenopausal women with this popular route of administration."

    Percutaneous progesterone delivery via cream or gel application in postmenopausal women: a randomized cross-over study of progesterone levels in se... - PubMed - NCBI
    "...After application of topical progesterone, saliva and capillary blood levels are approximately 10-fold and 100-fold greater, respectively, than those seen in serum or whole blood. High capillary blood and saliva levels indicate high absorption and transport of progesterone to tissues. Reliance on serum levels of progesterone for monitoring topical dose could lead to underestimation of tissue levels and consequent overdose."

    Percutaneous administration of progesterone: blood levels and endometrial protection. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...Despite the low serum progesterone levels achieved with the creams, salivary progesterone levels are very high, indicating that progesterone levels in serum do not necessarily reflect those in tissues. The mechanism by which the serum progesterone levels remain low is not known. However, one explanation is that after absorption through the skin, the lipophilic ingredients of creams, including progesterone, may have a preference for saturating the fatty layer below the dermis."


    Effects and side-effects of 2% progesterone cream on the skin of peri- and postmenopausal women: results from a double-blind, vehicle-controlled, r... - PubMed - NCBI
    "...The results of this study demonstrate that topical 2% progesterone acts primarily in increasing elasticity and firmness in the skin of peri- and postmenopausal women. These effects in combination with good tolerability make progesterone a possible treatment agent for slowing down the ageing process of female skin after onset of the menopause."

    Medical treatment of male pattern alopecia (androgenic alopecia). - PubMed - NCBI
    "...The causes and potential causes of androgenic alopecia in men and women are discussed. The scientific attempts at reversing this process are detailed including use of estrogen, thyroid, progesterone, and minoxidil. At present, the practical approach for the clinician is to ascertain in females that an androgen overproduction syndrome is not present. A therapeutic trial of topical progesterone at a 2%-5% concentration appears to be reasonable when the physician and patient appreciate the limitations of this approach."

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 369093017J
    "...Present osteoporosis management emphasizes prevention rather than cure since true reversal has proven unobtainable by conventional methods. With the hypothesis that progesterone is the missing ingredient for normal bone-building in women, transdermal progesterone supplementation (with or without estrogen) was tested in an office-based setting over a period of six years. Treatment resulted in progressive increase in bone mineral density (BMD) and, more importantly, definite clinical improvements evidenced by pain relief, height stabilization, increased physical activity, and fracture prevention. The benefits achieved were found to be independent of age. It is concluded that osteoporosis reversal is a clinical reality in a program that is safe, uncomplicated, and inexpensive."
     
  2. sweetpeat

    sweetpeat Member

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    With these topical hormone products, I've read that you should alternate different places on your body where you apply them. Is there any truth to that?
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Can you please provide some references for that claim?
     
  4. sweetpeat

    sweetpeat Member

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    It's what is usually recommended for applying progesterone cream. Dr. John Lee's website is one example. They claim that applying it too often to the same sight causes saturation, so you should rotate application sights.

    I use Progest-E now, and generally take it orally. But I was curious whether it was possible for saturation to happen when applying it (or other hormones) topically. Or if it's bogus.
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Never heard of saturation with progesterone. Since there is no negative feedback mechanism for pregnenolone, DHEA or progesterone the excess will end up converting into something else down the pathways. The studies I posted above show high saliva progesterone from topical application on the same skin spot, so not sure saturation can occur if progesterone is distributed so widely throughout the body.
    The only time I think alternation is applicable IMHO is if there is local skin irritation.
     
  6. acrylic

    acrylic Member

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    Haidut - Who's your DMSO supplier? The biological effects of any impurities are greatly exaggerated by the substance.

    -J
     
  7. acrylic

    acrylic Member

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    Also - did you make sure the plastic containers you use are not going to be leached/degraded by the DMSO?

    Best,
    J
     
  8. sweetpeat

    sweetpeat Member

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    It's really strange that they would recommend doing it then. I have bottles of both topical progesterone and pregnenolone creams, and the directions for both say to alternate the application sights in order to avoid saturation of tissues. Maybe this is some left-over myth prior to more recent studies.

    Anyway, changing the subject: I noticed that the studies cited above mentioned saliva testing for hormones so I was wondering about your opinion on the best way to monitor hormone levels - saliva or serum.
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    We use several suppliers, but the main ones are SigmaAldrich and MPBio.com, and they all provide pharma-grade DMSO. The supplier for the bottles has states that they are virtually leak-less even for storing something like 100% ethanol, which can leach plastic more than DMSO.
     
  10. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think both methods can be helpful but the blood test can be misleading since very often it does not correlate with tissue levels. DHEA is perfect example but so it progesterone since the blood tests after topical application show little or no change in plasma levels but very high levels in saliva. This makes sense since the steroids are needed in tissues rather than floating in the blood. Ideally, I would do both blood and saliva testing on the same day to get a better idea. The saliva tests are also much cheaper and I think there are even kits you can use at home and not mail anything at the lab.
     
  11. sweetpeat

    sweetpeat Member

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    That has been my experience. I once did serum labs and saliva collection within just a couple days of each other and the results were pretty contradictory. I found it confusing and didn't know what to make of it.
     
  12. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Hi Haidut

    Am I right that your Progestene contains 600 mg of Progesterone per bottle and @ $25 / bottle costs $41.67 / gram of active Progesterone ?

    Compared to Progest-E which contains 3400 mg (10% solution) of Progesterone per 34ml bottle @ $31, the comparitive cost per gram of Progesterone is $9.11 ?
    http://www.electricalbody.com/product/n ... ne-oil.htm

    Any reasons for your greater than 4.5X more expensive product ?
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    As I explained in the other threads, the main cost factor for me is labor and not the raw materials. If I reach certain volume in sales (i.e. economies of scale), I will outsource the operation and the price will be more commensurate with the price of raw materials.
     
  14. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    No, that's fine , but my calculations is correct then since you didn't say I was wrong ?
    It's difficult to see you get "up to scale" though when your current product is nearly 5 times more expensive as other established and similar products ...
    And I say this, just as a business fact, nothing else meant by it or the product.
    Unless forum members doesn't mind over paying ?
     
  15. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, the calculation is correct.
    I know, it's a catch-22 for many people trying to sell stuff. When the operation is very small, it is expensive and to make it cheaper you need to grow. But how do you grow when you are expensive...Before starting this operation I ran a survey on the forum and most people said they will buy supplements if they are under $25 a month. So, it was sort of vetted by at least the forum members who responded. Finally, the solubility of progesterone in most solvents is only about 22mg/mL so Progestene gives you close to that maximum.

    Btw, if you calculate the price by effectiveness Progestene stacks up pretty well with commercial progesterone products. I pack of Prometrium with 30 gelcaps 100mg each is usually no less than $30 at most online pharmacies, and without insurance in USA it can be several hundred dollars. Absorption of oral progesterone is about 6%, so you are getting at most 12mg bioavailable progesterone from each gelcap. So, in a sense you are paying $30+ for 360mg progesterone if you buy it online and hundreds if you buy it in the US without insurance.
    With Progestene you get virtually 100% of the progesterone in your blood. So, its price per bioavailable gram of progesterone is at least half that of Prometrium and sometimes much much lower than that.
    Anyways, point taken on the price. I am always looking for ways to make thing cheaper.
     
  16. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Why do you compare Progestene with an oral product like Prometrium though , and not a "Peat approved" product like Progest-E ?
     
  17. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Because the comparison that ultimately matters is the amount of progesterone you absorb, not how much you are buying, right? Btw, some people on the forum take Progestene orally so I thought the comparison is somewhat valid.
    The topical products on the market are mostly junk and this is the reason doctors only prescribe oral micronized progesterone or vaginal/rectal suppositories. If there was a comparable topical product I would be using it as a baseline.
    The reason I don't compare Progestene to Ray's product is that I don't want this to turn into an argument who has the better topical product. I encourage people to try both and stick with the one that makes them feel better. If that means less sales for me and more for Ray then I have no problem with that. The man deserves it.
     
  18. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    My point is that there is a comparable topical product, Progest-E, and that I think you should compare it to your product. You are, after all, advertising on the RayPeat forum ! ;)
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Fair enough. If anyone would like to do a before and after blood tests with Progest-E and Progestene I would give them a free bottle of Progestene or any other product they like.
     
  20. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    What is the cost of 2 blood tests compared to the value of a bottle of Progestene ? Surely 2 blood tests will cost way way more than $20 ?

    Unless, you are NOT claiming your Progestene product gives more absorption of Progesterone into the blood than Progest-E, surely then it's only fair that you should provide the test results to back that up ?
     
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