Foolproof Nutrition Protocol For Life-long Weight Loss/PUFA Depletion

[YourUniverse]

+1

This is very similar to what member VOS posted about his diet. He claimed that he experienced a 90min window after which he would start to feel the effects wear off.

VoS Uncoupling Thread

I suspect that this might be a way to purge stored pufa very quickly.

For one, VoS was interested in gaining weight.

re: milk and fruit depleting PUFA - sure will, and is best for a short spurt once bulk weight is lost, while taking lots of vitamin E and niacinamide (phase III of OP) --> minimizes suffering

 

[Anders86]

+1

This is very similar to what member VOS posted about his diet. He claimed that he experienced a 90min window after which he would start to feel the effects wear off.

VoS Uncoupling Thread

I suspect that this might be a way to purge stored pufa very quickly.

Thanks for this! A hidden gem!

 

[Spondive]

Would depend on a person's state of overweightedness. Phase I and II can be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending on fat loss needed. Broda Barnes used an approach very similar to phase I (without the emphasis on calcium) for morbidly obese patients to lose 100s of lbs.

The goal is to lose the bulk fat quickly without suffering through hunger or PUFA oxidation, and save it all for the end (which will be rough, but only 30 days - almost there).

IMO, a person should start with an idea of total fat loss they would like to achieve. Then, stay in Phase I for at least 30% of that total fat loss. Ease into Phase II as progress/feel permits after that. Save Phase III for when you are within 8 or so lbs of your fatloss goal (or 5%)

Can you give me an example of what cheeses and how much were you eating and how often... so this is a high saturated diet with a reduction in calories and carbs?

 

[baggywrinkle]

My progress accelerated greatly when I did extra focused exercise,namely yoga concentrating on the core and Hardening up the stomach muscles
Yes fat protein less carbs,especially no bread(just masa hirina for me)

 

[YourUniverse]

Can you give me an example of what cheeses and how much were you eating and how often... so this is a high saturated diet with a reduction in calories and carbs?

Coffee with coconut oil and gelatin for breakfast, with vitamin D and K and an orange or 2, then a glass tupperware of broken up bite-sized cheese blocks to snack on all day, with an egg or two and a carrot for dinner.

As neuroses go down, diet adherence goes up.

I personally enjoy Mozzarella, and sometimes an old cheddar. Prominent peaters have recommended Parm Reggiano as best. Anything that uses animal rennet will be tolerated better by most, but regular cheese is fine for me

 

[Spondive]

Coffee with coconut oil and gelatin for breakfast, with vitamin D and K and an orange or 2, then a glass tupperware of broken up bite-sized cheese blocks to snack on all day, with an egg or two and a carrot for dinner.

As neuroses go down, diet adherence goes up.

I personally enjoy Mozzarella, and sometimes an old cheddar. Prominent peaters have recommended Parm Reggiano as best. Anything that uses animal rennet will be tolerated better by most, but regular cheese is fine for me

Awesome thanks! Am I correct that this is a reduction of calories but high saturated fat to get rid of fat on body quickly

 

[YourUniverse]

Awesome thanks! Am I correct that this is a reduction of calories but high saturated fat to get rid of fat on body quickly

Eat to satiation, which is easy while eating lots of saturated fat. Broda Barnes noted that patients accepted their diets while eating along these lines, even though they could be monotonous, because of how satiated they felt as they lost body fat.

 

[Spondive]

Eat to satiation, which is easy while eating lots of saturated fat. Broda Barnes noted that patients accepted their diets while eating along these lines, even though they could be monotonous, because of how satiated they felt as they lost body fat.

And it worked for you? Were you over fat or not?

 

[Cirion]

I am taking the opposite approach of low fat high carb, but fairly high calorie, even though I have overall weight to lose, I think it's more important to purge the PUFA first, and restricting calories is not helpful for my metabolism / maintaining 98.6F temps.

I can't see how eating low carb is helpful in the long run. That's going to get you insulin resistant and not help carb metabolism along.

That said, reading this thread makes me realize now why I feel so freaking BAD ever since I started restricting PUFA's. Like omg, this weekend I have felt like death almost the whole time, and today I had like less than 1 gram of PUFA, same for yesterday. ughhhh, I thought limiting PUFA would make me feel good... but at least I know now that I shouldn't be surprised... but I am tired of feeling bad... sigh

i have like some really bad brain fog, fatigue, energy problems... even with a very high carb intake and saturated fats from HCO... somehow mostly managing my temps at 98.6F+ tho

My brain fog and energy has been so bad that on weekends all i do is sleep, don't get any house cleaning done, no errands, no socializing, no nothing. I can barely even function on my job these days...

I certainly have no energy for working out, and working out in my current state would probably tank my body temps

 

[YourUniverse]

And it worked for you? Were you over fat or not?

The fattest I got was while Peating hardcore: sugaring everything in sight, eating no fat . It took this spin (taken from Broda Barnes) to get me back to normal bodyweight - yes, it works, or I wouldnt have written a post about it .

It should be noted that Peat doesn't say to avoid fat to lose weight - this forum does.

 

[YourUniverse]

I am taking the opposite approach of low fat high carb, but fairly high calorie, even though I have overall weight to lose, I think it's more important to purge the PUFA first, and restricting calories is not helpful for my metabolism / maintaining 98.6F temps.

I can't see how eating low carb is helpful in the long run. That's going to get you insulin resistant and not help carb metabolism along.

That said, reading this thread makes me realize now why I feel so freaking BAD ever since I started restricting PUFA's. Like omg, this weekend I have felt like death almost the whole time, and today I had like less than 1 gram of PUFA, same for yesterday. ughhhh, I thought limiting PUFA would make me feel good... but at least I know now that I shouldn't be surprised... but I am tired of feeling bad... sigh

i have like some really bad brain fog, fatigue, energy problems... even with a very high carb intake and saturated fats from HCO... somehow mostly managing my temps at 98.6F+ tho

My brain fog and energy has been so bad that on weekends all i do is sleep, don't get any house cleaning done, no errands, no socializing, no nothing. I can barely even function on my job these days...

I certainly have no energy for working out, and working out in my current state would probably tank my body temps

PUFA makes you insulin resistant. A low PUFA, high fat diet won't. When PUFAs are being metabolized at full capacity (phase II and III), vitamin E and niacinamide are taken to help improve/restore glucose metabolism.

No one is restricting calories. Eat to satiation. It may come as a shock that a fat calorie is magnitudes more satiating than a sugar calorie, at only 2.25x the density.

Lastly, to be blunt (but not meaning to be rude), looking to purge PUFA first is what induced your weight gain to begin with, no? It may serve you to open your mind to alternatives (or pick up Broda Barnes book "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness")

 

[Cirion]

The fattest I got was while Peating hardcore: sugaring everything in sight, eating no fat . It took this spin (taken from Broda Barnes) to get me back to normal bodyweight - yes, it works, or I wouldnt have written a post about it .

It should be noted that Peat doesn't say to avoid fat to lose weight - this forum does.

Eating "no" fat may have been the issue? I'm not eating zero fat. Just zero pufa. Doing around 50-75g a day of fat, from HCO. It normalized your bodyweight, but was it metabolically good? Were your temps still 98.6F pulses good etc? Even Peat does not say to eat "zero" fat, that's an interpretation a few people here take though (As you have correctly stated). I believe both total PUFA intake and SFA:PUFA ratio matters, so I go super low PUFA and very high SFA:PUFA ratios (I do upwards of 50:1 SFA to pufa ratio) or around 1 gram of pufa and 50-60 gram of SFA.

PUFA makes you insulin resistant. A low PUFA, high fat diet won't. When PUFAs are being metabolized at full capacity (phase II and III), vitamin E and niacinamide are taken to help improve/restore glucose metabolism.

No one is restricting calories. Eat to satiation. It may come as a shock that a fat calorie is magnitudes more satiating than a sugar calorie, at only 2.25x the density.

Lastly, to be blunt (but not meaning to be rude), looking to purge PUFA first is what induced your weight gain to begin with, no? It may serve you to open your mind to alternatives (or pick up Broda Barnes book "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness")

Oh yes of course PUFA makes you IR, but so can too little carb.

I'm well aware that fat is more satiating than sugar, not a shock at all. After all, I did keto for 2 years before Peat - but that also made me severely IR, just looking at carbs made me go into food comas. So not really doubting it works, just doubting it works in a metabolically healthy fashion I suppose.

Also I have never made an attempt to purge PUFA until now, so to the last point, no, it did not. In fact I was eating more PUFA than I should have been, due to eating high fat in general. This double combo is what I believe made me fat - too much dietary fat and too much PUFA both in combination with too much sugar (Randle cycle). I have been only doing this so far for like a week or two, so it's far too early to say if it has worked or not.

 

[charlie]

i have like some really bad brain fog, fatigue, energy problems... even with a very high carb intake and saturated fats from HCO... somehow mostly managing my temps at 98.6F+ tho

My brain fog and energy has been so bad that on weekends all i do is sleep, don't get any house cleaning done, no errands, no socializing, no nothing. I can barely even function on my job these days...

Check out page 66 and 67 for vitamin A toxicity symptoms. Also page 88 is very interesting.

https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/extinguishing-the-fires-of-hell2.pdf

 

[YourUniverse]

Eating "no" fat may have been the issue? I'm not eating zero fat. Just zero pufa. Doing around 50-75g a day of fat, from HCO. It normalized your bodyweight, but was it metabolically good? Were your temps still 98.6F pulses good etc? Even Peat does not say to eat "zero" fat, that's an interpretation a few people here take though (As you have correctly stated). I believe both total PUFA intake and SFA:PUFA ratio matters, so I go super low PUFA and very high SFA:PUFA ratios (I do upwards of 50:1 SFA to pufa ratio) or around 1 gram of pufa and 50-60 gram of SFA.



Oh yes of course PUFA makes you IR, but so can too little carb.

I'm well aware that fat is more satiating than sugar, not a shock at all. After all, I did keto for 2 years before Peat - but that also made me severely IR, just looking at carbs made me go into food comas. So not really doubting it works, just doubting it works in a metabolically healthy fashion I suppose.

Also I have never made an attempt to purge PUFA until now, so to the last point, no, it did not. In fact I was eating more PUFA than I should have been, due to eating high fat in general. This double combo is what I believe made me fat - too much dietary fat and too much PUFA both in combination with too much sugar (Randle cycle). I have been only doing this so far for like a week or two, so it's far too early to say if it has worked or not.

I didnt eat 0 fat, I ate low fat - 5% of calories.

Have you tried niacinamide for glucose metabolism?

Keto is not the answer - As Broda Barnes said, you want just enough sugar to stave off ketosis (we know from studying Ray that fruit and milk are best here). Putting a Peat spin on the Grandfather of hypothyroidism's diet should be just fine for the metabolism. If it was good enough for his patients, its good enough for us.

For every person that a massive sugar, low fat diet works for, I'll show you 20 for whom it doesnt. I'm one of those.

is ~4g of PUFA bad? Serious? That was considered a "gold standard" cutoff point for PUFA depletion on this board, which is what most morbid obese people, whom would start at Phase I in the OP, would be consuming. The argument that this is too much PUFA cant really be serious.

My personal temps and pulse are the best theyve ever been, and more importantly, this post isnt about me. I've studied Ray, and this forum (which are quite distinct, mind you), and have traveled down the sugary, fat-less depths only to feel miserable. Honestly, most of what you wrote originally - brain fog, lethargy, uneven blood sugar all despite doing what I should have been doing! Focusing on sugars over starches, fruit, milk, coffee, etc. The goal of this post is to save others from shedding their "Peat weight" which is all too common, in a metabolically healthy way - yes, a high saturated fat, low sugar diet is metabolically healthy for a morbidly obese person, with poor glucose handling capabilities.

Personally, I eat around 160g of sugar, 140g of fat, and 150g of protein on non-exercise days, and 450g carb, 25g fat, and 150g protein on exercise days, because I fall somewhere within Phase II - the closer I get to the goal weight, the more carbs (and less fat) I eat. And the temps, pulse, mood, energy, brain capacity are all firing on full.

 

[Cirion]

Check out page 66 and 67 for vitamin A toxicity symptoms. Also page 88 is very interesting.

https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/extinguishing-the-fires-of-hell2.pdf

I don't seem to have many of those symptoms so it's probably not vitamin A toxicity

 

[Cirion]

I didnt eat 0 fat, I ate low fat - 5% of calories.

Have you tried niacinamide for glucose metabolism?

Keto is not the answer - As Broda Barnes said, you want just enough sugar to stave off ketosis (we know from studying Ray that fruit and milk are best here). Putting a Peat spin on the Grandfather of hypothyroidism's diet should be just fine for the metabolism. If it was good enough for his patients, its good enough for us.

For every person that a massive sugar, low fat diet works for, I'll show you 20 for whom it doesnt. I'm one of those.

is ~4g of PUFA bad? Serious? That was considered a "gold standard" cutoff point for PUFA depletion on this board, which is what most morbid obese people, whom would start at Phase I in the OP, would be consuming. The argument that this is too much PUFA cant really be serious.

My personal temps and pulse are the best theyve ever been, and more importantly, this post isnt about me. I've studied Ray, and this forum (which are quite distinct, mind you), and have traveled down the sugary, fat-less depths only to feel miserable. Honestly, most of what you wrote originally - brain fog, lethargy, uneven blood sugar all despite doing what I should have been doing! Focusing on sugars over starches, fruit, milk, coffee, etc. The goal of this post is to save others from shedding their "Peat weight" which is all too common, in a metabolically healthy way - yes, a high saturated fat, low sugar diet is metabolically healthy for a morbidly obese person, with poor glucose handling capabilities.

Personally, I eat around 160g of sugar, 140g of fat, and 150g of protein on non-exercise days, and 450g carb, 25g fat, and 150g protein on exercise days, because I fall somewhere within Phase II - the closer I get to the goal weight, the more carbs (and less fat) I eat. And the temps, pulse, mood, energy, brain capacity are all firing on full.

I believe someone asked Ray Peat in email form, would need to dig it up, but something like less than 2 gram or even 1 gram would be required to prevent accumulation with age. Ray eats around 1.5 gram a day now, doesn't he? But yeah, 4 gram is not bad at all. I wanted to go more extreme so I can finally get rid of it, and quickly though.

I was never able to get in the 4 gram range while having a really high fat intake. The only way to have <4 gram with a high fat intake is basically to eat only hydrogenated coconut oil for your fats. Even regular coconut oil adds up in PUFA if you had 100+ gram fat from it, though I suppose that would work, but certainly not any other types of fats like butter or cheese which will quickly get you above the 4 gram mark. You recommend cheese - 140 gram of fat from cheese would bump you above 4 gram PUFA by itself - through tracking on cronometer I have found EVERY food (almost) has PUFA, so it would actually be even higher, possibly 10 gram of PUFA, because even things like fruit have trace PUFA.

Thanks for the post, it does give me something to try if my current experiment ends up not working. I'm willing to suffer a bit though if it means fast PUFA depletion, which it should be if I am less than one gram a day.

 

[Waremu]

From what I remember, I believe Ray Peat said that less than 4 grams per day more for the cancer prevention effects, but insofar as weight loss and metabolism is concerned, he says those benefits come usually around 2 grams or less per day, and for stopping it from accumulating with age, something like no more than 0.5% of total caloric intake coming from PUFA. So around a gram of PUFA per 2000 calories. And for PUFA more extreme PUFA ‘depletion’ (where near acid is eventually produced), less than 0.5-1 gram of PUFA for some time. I personally am targeting the 0.5 grams range right now and depending on how I feel may at some point just keep it under one gram for some time. I have been eating under 4 grams per day since 2012, and probably averaging 2 grams per day for the last few years, so I’d imagine I already have a very favorable ratio of saturated and monounsaturated fats to PUFA in my tissue, so I don’t think it will take years to see benefits from this more extreme lower PUFA intake. I am thinking if I give it one year I should be seeing more benefits from that by then. If all goes well I could stay under the 1 gram mark and meet all my nutritional needs. At 0.5 grams of PUFA I just barely get by to meet most of not all of my nutritional needs. Many people I see say you can’t meet your nutritional needs at 1-1.5 grams per day, I don’t agree with that ar all. With liver and orange juice and milk, one can easily meet their nutritional needs even at 1-1.5 grams of PUFA per day easy. Just 1-2 oz of daily beef liver and skim milk will take care of most of that.

It seems like I over the many years of doing this and judging from my own errors I made when I was new, I’ve seen A LOT of people who follow Ray Peat eat well over 4 grams of PUFA per day, so it could be that this is one reason why some aren’t seeing enough improvements or feel that they’ve stalled out —- especially if they went into Peating within plenty or fat weight on to begin with. I personally thought less than 4 grams PUFA was very restrictive at first when I was new to Peat, but much of that was mental because I had an unhealthy mental relationship with food. I think some who say that it is too restrictive may also suffer from some of the same unhealthy emotional connections with food and deep down just want to find a diet where, as long as they restrict one or two other things, they can still eat tons of food and not gain fat because they’re almost addicted to eating more and more to fill a void or whatever’s and then are displeased when they find they’ve gained too much fat by their version of ’Peating.’ But as is said commonly among natural bodybuilders, you need to eat to live and not live to eat. I think too many people go into Peating with the wrong mentality of live to eat rather than eat to live. Even Peat is vocal on eating enough food but not overeating either. I feel some want to overlook the latter part and just stick to eating whatever they want as long as it’s not vegetable oils and thinking they’ll end up fine and not with health and fat issues down the road. Looking at food as a source of energy and not fufillment or enjoyment changed a lot for me. And that’s not to say one shouldn’t even enjoy their food, but I think some can easily take that and run with it to the extreme.

I’m also not convinced one can dramatically lower PUFA on a low fat very low PUFA diet for a month, as some monkey studies posted here before suggest. Someone on the Peeatarian forum posted a good rebuttal of that years ago and I haven’t seen anyone as of yet offer a good enough refutation to it, so I tend to agree with Peat on it taking 2-4 years to begin seeing more dramatic improvements with PUFA restriction.

 

[Cirion]

It seems like I see A LOT of people who follow Ray Peat eat well over 4 grams of PUFA per day, so it could ge that this is one reason why some aren’t seeing enough improvement or feel that they’ve stalled out —- especially if they went into Peating within plenty or fat weight on to begin with.

This is what I believe too. I was often eating > 10 gram of PUFA starting off and gained enormous weight, yet it was from "peat approved foods" like butter, beef fat, cheese, ice cream. The blame gets put on the sugar with the fat, and there is some truth to that, but I wonder if a lot of that fat gain could have been avoided if it was pure SFA's instead of SFA's with PUFA's in the mix.

I’m also not convinced one can dramatically lower PUFA on a low fat very low PUFA diet for a month, as some monkey studies posted here before suggest. Someone on the Peeatarian forum posted a good rebuttal of that years ago and I haven’t seen anyone as of yet offer a good enough refutation to it, so I tend to agree with Peat on it taking 2-4 years to begin seeing more dramatic improvements with PUFA restriction.

Yeah I think it depends. PUFA depletion theoretically could only happen in a month if you basically fasted (if really overweight) for a month (can't have PUFA if there's no bodyfat on you) or if you are already fairly lean and decide to go super low PUFA (by definition, being lean means fairly low PUFA). Zachs did a pufa depletion in like 3 months, but that was an extreme example of the former (basically fat fasted, zero fat).

So, know, I'll need to be doing this for more than a week or two to be sure it is working. Which can be frustrating, since it can be hard to know if it is worthwhile to be doing - a catch 22 situation. All I can do is trust the process since others like yourself have seen success doing it .

 

[Aymen]

has Anyone tried boiling eggs instead of frying them in coconut oil or butter?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think 4 grams of PUFA is too much, 2 grams or less is, in my experience, when things change for the better much more quickly.