PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

[tara]

Even Ray is not advising anywhere to follow a low fat diet.

+1
I agree that extreme diets that exclude basic macronutrients can have their risks.

 

[Gone Peating]

let mention to all the new people here that reads this:
@tca300 has developed serieus food allergy's on this low fat diet style.
Fed Up Of Food Intolerances!
And @JanP has ruined his gallbladder.
Have Ruined My Gallbladder By Low Fat Diet, Now I Can't Get Back To Eating Fat
Also @Zachs got health complications on this extreme diet and he is start eating high fat diet again.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

So let everybody warn that this 30+ day low fat diet for depletion PUFA is certainly not without risk.
Even Ray is not advising anywhere to follow a low fat diet.

Maybe some high fat refeed every 10 day or so to give the body some fatty acids to recover is a more wiser idea (?)

I think going for a month or so on very low fat is fine, but long term probably not a good idea

 

[BearWithMe]

let mention to all the new people here that reads this:
@tca300 has developed serieus food allergy's on this low fat diet style.
Fed Up Of Food Intolerances!
And @JanP has ruined his gallbladder.
Have Ruined My Gallbladder By Low Fat Diet, Now I Can't Get Back To Eating Fat
Also @Zachs got health complications on this extreme diet and he is start eating high fat diet again.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

So let everybody warn that this 30+ day low fat diet for depletion PUFA is certainly not without risk.
Even Ray is not advising anywhere to follow a low fat diet.

Maybe some high fat refeed every 10 day or so to give the body some fatty acids to recover is a more wiser idea (?)

I'm glad other people can learn from my mistakes, but to be fair, I have been eating like that for almost a year before my problems started. It doesn't happened in one month.

 

[berk]

I'm glad other people can learn from my mistakes, but to be fair, I have been eating like that for almost a year before my problems started. It doesn't happened in one month.

a whole year? I can't imagine that, low fat is so tasteless.
you must have eaten some fat once in a while

 

[tca300]

let mention to all the new people here that reads this:
@tca300 has developed serieus food allergy's on this low fat diet style.
Fed Up Of Food Intolerances!
And @JanP has ruined his gallbladder.
Have Ruined My Gallbladder By Low Fat Diet, Now I Can't Get Back To Eating Fat
Also @Zachs got health complications on this extreme diet and he is start eating high fat diet again.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

So let everybody warn that this 30+ day low fat diet for depletion PUFA is certainly not without risk.
Even Ray is not advising anywhere to follow a low fat diet.

Maybe some high fat refeed every 10 day or so to give the body some fatty acids to recover is a more wiser idea (?)

Having one meal a day with at least 10 grams of 12+ chain length fats will maximally stimulate bile secretion and prevent the low fat diet induced gallstones.
The role of gallbladder emptying in gallstone formation during diet-induced rapid weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[SOMO]

Having one meal a day with at least 10 grams of 12+ chain length fats will maximally stimulate bile secretion and prevent the low fat diet induced gallstones.
The role of gallbladder emptying in gallstone formation during diet-induced rapid weight loss. - PubMed - NCBI

So that's like 1 tablespoon of coconut oil or 2 tablespoons of butter?

Biologically, I always thought that there was no need for dietary fat, but through personal n=1 experience, I have always found a small amount of fat necessary to keep digestion working well.

I will say that going 0 fat cleared my skin up very well.

 

[tca300]

So that's like 1 tablespoon of coconut oil or 2 tablespoons of butter?

Biologically, I always thought that there was no need for dietary fat, but through personal n=1 experience, I have always found a small amount of fat necessary to keep digestion working well.

I will say that going 0 fat cleared my skin up very well.

I think coconut oil is a little over 85% 12+ fatty acids lengths and butter is about 90%. 1 tablespoon in a sitting of either should be enough.

 

[Gadsie]

Does anyone have an actual idea what the benefits of pufa depletion (0.5g a day) over say 2grams a day is?

 

[Mossy]

This is not what the study said, and it worries me that everyone in this thread has just jumped on your interpretation as if it's the correct one...If you guys think something sounds wrong, read the damn study. Haidut is human, too.

Haidut was sharing the study, leaving it open for discussion and possible additional interpretations—just as you offered up. He wasn’t claiming to be absolutely correct on it:

I would appreciate it if someone else reads the study as well and tells me if I am reading this right. If this study is correct...

 

[gqoq]

Haidut was sharing the study, leaving it open for discussion and possible additional interpretations—just as you offered up. He wasn’t claiming to be absolutely correct on it:

Yes I'm aware, hence why I directed the post at the community, not Haidut. No need to take everything personal brother, just imagine everyone's posting with a big smile.

 

[Re.Generate]

So - thank you all for this amazing thread ! - been going since 2014 and I love the ongoing inputs that have arisen over the years.

and - I’m curious - one thing that I have failed to see throughout the whole thread is this as a question:

how does the body rid itself of pufa?

I ask because, whilst reading the thoughts herein - it reads as though the assumption, for the most part, is that pufa depletion occurs through raising the metabolism high enough, through cutting all the fats, that somehow the excess pufa then gets “burned” by the muscles.

if I have understood correctly, and very happy to be corrected, this would imply that somehow we can trick our body into losing/burning, in some people at least, thousands upon thousands of calories worth of pufa from the body - which is surely not possible as it would require, at least in some way shape or form, a huge calorie deficit - which is completely contrary to the idea of a fast burning and efficient metabolic rate.

and yet something like this was accomplished in these monkeys at the threads beginning.

what I am therefore checking out is - can fat (pufa) actually be excreted and lost from the body fat faster than other forms of energy? - through the process of glucorinadation?

if that were to be the case - that essentially a fast enough metabolism is capable of literally stripping the cells of their pufa and escorting it to the liver for detoxifying - would not other strategies come in to play?

were this to be the case, and pufa did not have to be first somehow liberated ala adrenaline, cortisol etc, then I could propose another possibility.

a comprehensive plan lasting 30 days, including some things not so peaty but perhaps ok given the short duration:

avoidance of all fat save perhaps a tiny amount of coconut oil

avoidance of any starchy carbs - sugars, fruit juice etc are all good

LOTS of protein - I get the sense that this has not been talked about much during this thread - that protein is absolutely necessary for liver health and it’s detoxification system to work - and even more so during a time of high metabolic rate and a ***t ton of pufa to detoxify - I felt ***t still at various times whilst taking things and peating until I remembered the basic of plenty of protein - likely from casein and alongside bcaas and tyrosine to really knock out competition from the suppressive amino acids etc

high doses of all the metabolic vitamins and minerals - perhaps even looking into to 30 grams of sodium a day stuff

large amounts of thyroid, progesterone, aspirin, caffeine, pregnenolone, androsterone- everything that speeds that ***t up

lowering serotonin through all means that don’t also lower dopamine - lysine, famatidine, charcoal etc etc

choline!! - this is the non peaty part - there is much debate around choline and whether it is good or bad long term etc - but it definitely seems to get fat out of the liver - so I would use even bitartarate as its only for a month - as well as glycine, taurine, betaine etc - it’s all about speed for a while

lots and lots of sugar!- did I say that yet?

selenium, boron, maybe even a little iodine

anyway - this is the bones of the idea - and all depends on the protein and liver health I think - but if it was possible to detoxify kilos of fat over a month, without wrecking the system..... wouldn’t it be beautiful!!

 

[ljihkugft7]

Well, it didn't seem to affect the monkeys that badly otherwise the study would have mentioned something. Also, taking taurine and vitamin E greatly reduces the oxidative PUFA poisons, and vitamin E may even saturate some of the PUFAs before they are burned by the cells, thus reducing damage even further.
I am just not sure Peat's way of depleting them slowly is practical for everybody. He says that stored PUFA is more or less safe and with time the liver with glucuronidate them out of the body. The problem is, virtually everybody is oxidizing PUFAs all the time due to inefficient metabolism, low glycogen, chronic conditions, stress, exercise, etc. Taking niacinamide and aspirin may help but then again many people cannot take aspirin for various reasons. Long story short - I think that for SOME people who are burning PUFA anyways it may be better to just eat a fat-free diet for 30 days and be done with it.
Also, I am not sure the monkeys were forced to flush their PUFA into the blood stream. They ate enough sugar to prevent adrenalin from rising, so it must be their muscles burning the PUFA at high speed while on a fat-free diet.
Peat mentioned that the guy who went on a fat-free milk and orange juice diet experienced significant weight loss and it was not muscle loss but fat. So, I think it's worth a try to do very low fat diet for a month. Note that the monkeys were not exercising, otherwise it would have been mentioned. The PUFA were burned through normal metabolism, not stress and adrenalin.
Just my 2c.

What would you say is "low fat"? Under 20g daily?

 

[Re.Generate]

What would you say is "low fat"? Under 20g daily?

according to most of the sources I have read low fat seems really to be under about 10% of calories

 

[tankasnowgod]

FYI, here is the "Guy" Peat mentioned:
You can read the exact details and results of the experiment. I asked Dr. Peat once if it was practical to try the Burr experiment diet on myself - he said yes, just use OJ instead of the sucrose and coconut oil instead of mineral oil. So there should be no issue with burning off the PUFA over 30 days.

Just as an aside, I found this article on the same site justifying the essentially of PUFA's based and the same Burr experiment - insane!

Slow Discovery of the Importance of ω3 Essential Fatty Acids in Human Health

For anyone thinking of replicating the Burr experiment, I've made a protein shake that's tastes quite good, and should work well for this purpose.

The recipe is-

2 scoops Collagen power (it's a 6 gram scoop, that came with powder)
4 scoops Casien protein (same scoop as above)
1 Tablespoon Stearic Acid Flakes
1-2 Tablespoos sugar
Orange Juice (I just fill up the glass I'm using, which is about 20 oz or so)

Blend (I'm using a nutribullet). Drink.

The consistency is fine, and I love the taste. Kinda reminds me of a Orange Julius. I've also added glycine and taurine powders, and they don't affect the taste to me.

This shake is now my regular breakfast, and I sometimes use it in the evening, too.

This might be better than using skim milk, as there is a lot more glycine, and less tryptophan. The Stearic Acid should help to displace PUFA, and also allow the liver to detox it quicker and safer. This shake could either be used as a complement to skim milk in the experiment, or as a total replacement for it. The casien powder still has quite a bit of calcium, too.

 

[Hgreen56]

is it me or is "pufa depletion" just a other word for fat loss here on this forum?
Because i don't see the difference.
Pufa depletion is only possible if you lose body fat.
When lose body fat, you deplete automatically pufa.

 

[tankasnowgod]

is it me or is "pufa depletion" just a other word for fat loss here on this forum?
Because i don't see the difference.

If you read the Original Post on this thread, Haidut clearly spells out some differences. For example-

1) On a fat-free diet, PUFA depletion in serum and cholesterol was daramatic and it took about 4 days to almost fully deplete PUFA.
2) In various tissues like muscle, skin and testis, PUFA depletion was slower, but still after ONLY 31 days the PUFA depletion in tissues reached the depletion levels seen in serum and cholesterol. As far as I can see PUFA levels fell to under 5% concentration in tissues. Again, this was achieved when feeding fat-free diet.
3) Perhaps the most important, and depressing finding - even a single high PUFA meal replenished PUFA content in serum, cholesterol and tissues almost up to the levels seen before starting fat-free diets. So, after depleting PUFA make sure to avoid even a single "binge event" of restaurant food unless you are loaded up on vitamin E.

So it's not just PUFA in fat stores, though those are likely going to be the biggest source of PUFA in the organism.

 

[Spartan300]

I still have a problem that after PUFA depletion, one meal can reinstate what could have been decades of PUFA consumption in tissues?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I still have a problem that after PUFA depletion, one meal can reinstate what could have been decades of PUFA consumption in tissues?

It doesn't-

This is not what the study said, and it worries me that everyone in this thread has just jumped on your interpretation as if it's the correct one.



So the high PFA meal changed serum numbers but not tissue numbers. Makes a lot of sense. If you guys think something sounds wrong, read the damn study. Haidut is human, too.

Another note on this thing: what carbohydrates were the monkeys eating? Pure fructose? Sucrose? Starch? Doesn't say in the study, but it seems like it'd be important.

Edit: looks like it was sucrose! EXPERIMENTAL ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN CEBUS MONKEYS (gives some background as to the monkeys' environment)

 

[Daniil]

Should I take aspirin when I'm running out of pufa? Aspirin inhibits lipolysis, but are there other mechanisms of PUFA depletion and are they effective?

 

[Luann]

It doesn't-

will you elaborate a little on this, I remember hearing that one meal once in a while isn't too harmful, but would like to know how / why?