Foolproof Nutrition Protocol For Life-long Weight Loss/PUFA Depletion

jamies33

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
Phase I: Lose bulk body fat (B-complex is likely needed for quality of life)
  1. Eat a very high saturated fat diet (best sources are cheese, coconut oil, limited fatty meats).
    • This blunts appetite and blocks PUFA required for a highly metabolic, sufficiently low calorie diet (to lose weight).
  2. Eat moderate protein
    • If cheese is main source of protein, this should take care of itself. 0.6-0.75g/lb is plenty.
  3. Limit carbs to keep appetite and calories down
    • A piece of fruit can be eaten a few times per day - best is for breakfast (and post workout, for those so inclined)
Phase II: Calibrate carbs upward, and fat downward, by feel
  1. As you lose body fat, feel free to trade some dietary saturated fat for carbohydrate. Go by feel and progress. (Key word here is "some")
Phase III: Sprint to PUFA depletion (~30 days)
  1. Eliminate all dietary fat; replace with carbohydrate (skim milk, fruit, honey [, well boiled potatoes, rice for those inclined])
  2. Supplement with vitamin E and niacinamide daily
Throughout all phases: Eat a balanced diet; focus on calcium, vitamin D, vitamin K; drink coffee; lift weights if desired; eat a carrot daily.

The problem with high carb, low fat diets, is that they liberate PUFA too thoroughly. They are too effective at depleting PUFA.

"Isnt that a good thing..?"

Yes - at the right time. When you have bulk excess body fat to lose, your PUFA stores are likely massive. Liberating a massive amount of stores over a long period of time is simply inefficient - it prolongs suffering and metabolic derangement. I know what metabolizing PUFAs feels like, and its awful.

It's a better idea to first block PUFA, while shedding fat stores, and then sprint the PUFA down to depleted status. Haidut wrote a thread years ago called something along the lines of "PUFA depletion can (probably) happen in only 30 days!!" - catchy title, and I'm willing to bet it is possible, but only if the PUFA stores are small enough.

An obese person will not be able to PUFA deplete in 30 days. A slim person probably can.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
I personally think that (unless someone is too obese) a person is really selling themselves short if they're trying to tone up or lose some weight and not incorporate any weight lifting in. Even if it's not going to the gym and just using free weights at home, that's all someone really needs to build lean muscle or preserve more muscle as they lose fat, so they don't lose more muscle than is necessary. I didn't start seeing increased metabolism benefits until I was about 2-3 years into Peating, which agrees with what he says about PUFA half life in tissue. I would gain weight on 2200 calories and now eat over 3000 calories daily. I had more fat weight then than I do now. I have been eating less than 4 grams of PUFA per 2000 calories as a maximum, but I targeted 2 grams or less per 2000 calories as my goal. the vast majority of days were 2 grams and sometimes less than 2 grams of PUFA. Cutting out starch and using fruit over starch was also a big bonus for me.
 

Tbone107

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2018
Messages
123
Phase I: Lose bulk body fat (B-complex is likely needed for quality of life)
  1. Eat a very high saturated fat diet (best sources are cheese, coconut oil, limited fatty meats).
    • This blunts appetite and blocks PUFA required for a highly metabolic, sufficiently low calorie diet (to lose weight).
  2. Eat moderate protein
    • If cheese is main source of protein, this should take care of itself. 0.6-0.75g/lb is plenty.
  3. Limit carbs to keep appetite and calories down
    • A piece of fruit can be eaten a few times per day - best is for breakfast (and post workout, for those so inclined)
Phase II: Calibrate carbs upward, and fat downward, by feel
  1. As you lose body fat, feel free to trade some dietary saturated fat for carbohydrate. Go by feel and progress. (Key word here is "some")
Phase III: Sprint to PUFA depletion (~30 days)
  1. Eliminate all dietary fat; replace with carbohydrate (skim milk, fruit, honey [, well boiled potatoes, rice for those inclined])
  2. Supplement with vitamin E and niacinamide daily
Throughout all phases: Eat a balanced diet; focus on calcium, vitamin D, vitamin K; drink coffee; lift weights if desired; eat a carrot daily.

The problem with high carb, low fat diets, is that they liberate PUFA too thoroughly. They are too effective at depleting PUFA.

"Isnt that a good thing..?"

Yes - at the right time. When you have bulk excess body fat to lose, your PUFA stores are likely massive. Liberating a massive amount of stores over a long period of time is simply inefficient - it prolongs suffering and metabolic derangement. I know what metabolizing PUFAs feels like, and its awful.

It's a better idea to first block PUFA, while shedding fat stores, and then sprint the PUFA down to depleted status. Haidut wrote a thread years ago called something along the lines of "PUFA depletion can (probably) happen in only 30 days!!" - catchy title, and I'm willing to bet it is possible, but only if the PUFA stores are small enough.

An obese person will not be able to PUFA deplete in 30 days. A slim person probably can.

What is the general timeline for each phase?
 

TeaRex14

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
629
Interesting. I've always just done a lowfat high carb approach for weight loss. If you're eating low enough fats, somewhere between 35-50 grams for most people, you'll avoid triggering the randle cycle which will allow you to burn glucose for energy thus inhibiting lipolysis to a great degree. Doing this in a caloric deficit will only further accelerate weight loss, but could also trigger lipolysis, so taking niacinamide, aspirin, and vitamin E could really be useful to keep you in glucose oxidation. Thiamine (B1) would also be helpful, to prevent sugar from being converted into lactic acid. I guess we all have our own ways, granted this way is slower then a low carb approach, but much less stressful. People don't like hearing the best and healthiest weight loss is the low and slow weight loss, lol.
 

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
What is the general timeline for each phase?
Would depend on a person's state of overweightedness. Phase I and II can be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending on fat loss needed. Broda Barnes used an approach very similar to phase I (without the emphasis on calcium) for morbidly obese patients to lose 100s of lbs.

The goal is to lose the bulk fat quickly without suffering through hunger or PUFA oxidation, and save it all for the end (which will be rough, but only 30 days - almost there).

IMO, a person should start with an idea of total fat loss they would like to achieve. Then, stay in Phase I for at least 30% of that total fat loss. Ease into Phase II as progress/feel permits after that. Save Phase III for when you are within 8 or so lbs of your fatloss goal (or 5%)
 
Last edited:

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
I personally think that (unless someone is too obese) a person is really selling themselves short if they're trying to tone up or lose some weight and not incorporate any weight lifting in. Even if it's not going to the gym and just using free weights at home, that's all someone really needs to build lean muscle or preserve more muscle as they lose fat, so they don't lose more muscle than is necessary. I didn't start seeing increased metabolism benefits until I was about 2-3 years into Peating, which agrees with what he says about PUFA half life in tissue. I would gain weight on 2200 calories and now eat over 3000 calories daily. I had more fat weight then than I do now. I have been eating less than 4 grams of PUFA per 2000 calories as a maximum, but I targeted 2 grams or less per 2000 calories as my goal. the vast majority of days were 2 grams and sometimes less than 2 grams of PUFA. Cutting out starch and using fruit over starch was also a big bonus for me.
so true, I just dont feel right unless I lift a few times a week - even moderately. Been peating for 1.5 years, looking forward to the 3 and 4 year mark
 

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
How would you describe this experience?
Irritability, brain fog, sluggishness, mild constipation, stress, perceived IQ loss - hallmark hypothyroid/estrogen symptoms.

Also, I would tend to getting more aches/pains. Aspirin clears these symptoms up reliably.
 

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
so true, I just dont feel right unless I lift a few times a week - even moderately. Been peating for 1.5 years, looking forward to the 3 and 4 year mark


Just curious, how much PUFA are you consuming on average? I have been averaging 2 grams, as mentioned, but this year started a much lower PUFA diet because I am cutting slightly for summer. From 2 grams to about 0.5 grams per day. From what I read, Peat says that he recommends 4 grams per day max for cancer benefits but to prevent or slow down PUFA accumulation, he says he eats a slight caloric deficit and tries to stay below 1.5 g PUFA per day. And to deplete PUFA, he recommends 0.5/0.6% of calories come from PUFA. So like around a gram or a little more, depending on calories. But some of the studies I have seen suggest for best results, around half a gram of PUFA per day. So I am trying to stay around 0.5-0.6 grams of PUFA, which pretty much means nothing but hydrogenated coconut oil in small amounts, skim milk, some Greek yogurt, OJ/fruit juice, and thats mostly it. Extreme, but this seems to be the only thing that works for me, is going very low fat/low PUFA. Peat says he doesn't tell most people to eat that low PUFA because it isn't realistic for most people/is hard to stick to for most people, but that is interesting because when I was new to Peat I was under the impression that eating under 4 grams or so would deplete PUFA. Kind of sucks because if I did it all over again I would have went very low right away but oh well. Still shouldn't take that long to see more improvements because I would still imagine the saturated fat and monosaturated fat to PUFA ratio is much better in my adipose tissue than what it was, so I would imagine it's not like it will take a few years all over again to hit the level where I am making mead acid and am EFA 'deficient' or near it. If my metabolism increased from cutting PUFA out from years ago, I can only imagine doing more of this may work better for me. It would also explain why a lot of people on here spend years and get no where, because they A) were probably eating no where near as low as Peat recommends to deplete PUFA and B) even if they were in a slight caloric surplus, and eating 4 or so grams of PUFA per day, some of that was stored over the years. This is my hypothesis as to why this is the case with so many people, and it makes sense to me. I was ultra low PUFA for one year and that was the year when I was the most fit and felt the best. So it all seems to be clicking with me now, and making more sense. I think the biggest mistake people are making is thinking overeating calories is not that harmless, even if they are s0-called Peating in their definition of it. I just don't see how anyone will ever have adipose tissue that is truly low in PUFA while they're eating at a caloric surplus and more than 0.6% or so of their calories from PUFA. PUFA seems to be more easily burned off by the body in a caloric deficit, but accumulates more in a caloric surplus, from what I have seen and Ray has stated. I may start a diary on here as well tracking my experience on the very low PUFA diet.
 
Last edited:

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
Just curious, how much PUFA are you consuming on average? I have been averaging 2 grams, as mentioned, but this year started a much lower PUFA diet because I am cutting slightly for summer. From 2 grams to about 0.5 grams per day. From what I read, Peat says that he recommends 4 grams per day max for cancer benefits but to prevent or slow down PUFA accumulation, he says he eats a slight caloric deficit and tries to stay below 1.5 g PUFA per day. And to deplete PUFA, he recommends 0.5/0.6% of calories come from PUFA. So like around a gram or a little more, depending on calories. But some of the studies I have seen suggest for best results, around half a gram of PUFA per day. So I am trying to stay around 0.5-0.6 grams of PUFA, which pretty much means nothing but hydrogenated coconut oil in small amounts, skim milk, some Greek yogurt, OJ/fruit juice, and thats mostly it. Extreme, but this seems to be the only thing that works for me, is going very low fat/low PUFA. Peat says he doesn't tell most people to eat that low PUFA because it isn't realistic for most people/is hard to stick to for most people, but that is interesting because when I was new to Peat I was under the impression that eating under 4 grams or so would deplete PUFA. Kind of sucks because if I did it all over again I would have went very low right away but oh well. Still shouldn't take that long to see more improvements because I would still imagine the saturated fat and monosaturated fat to PUFA ratio is much better in my adipose tissue than what it was, so I would imagine it's not like it will take a few years all over again to hit the level where I am making mead acid and am EFA 'deficient' or near it. If my metabolism increased from cutting PUFA out from years ago, I can only imagine doing more of this may work better for me. It would also explain why a lot of people on here spend years and get no where, because they A) were probably eating no where near as low as Peat recommends to deplete PUFA and B) even if they were in a slight caloric surplus, and eating 4 or so grams of PUFA per day, some of that was stored over the years. This is my hypothesis as to why this is the case with so many people, and it makes sense to me. I was ultra low PUFA for one year and that was the year when I was the most fit and felt the best. So it all seems to be clicking with me now, and making more sense. I think the biggest mistake people are making is thinking overeating calories is not that harmless, even if they are s0-called Peating in their definition of it. I just don't see how anyone will ever have adipose tissue that is truly low in PUFA while they're eating at a caloric surplus and more than 0.6% or so of their calories from PUFA. PUFA seems to be more easily burned off by the body in a caloric deficit, but accumulates more in a caloric surplus, from what I have seen and Ray has stated. I may start a diary on here as well tracking my experience on the very low PUFA diet.

I get ~4.5g PUFA per 2000 calories right now, and ~12og fat total. Lots of cheese, some coconut oil in the morning, an egg or some liver fried in butter. I dont take any hormonal supplements, including thyroid. Vitamin D, E, K, and L-theanine (an aspirin once or twice a week)

I think youre right about people overeating, and hoping their interpretation of Peat principles will catch them as they take the plunge. Granted, this method, which I think is logically hashed out, is not exactly "Peaty" in its initial borderline ketosis, although Broda Barnes recommended a diet extremely similar for obese patients (outlined in his book, Hypothyroidism - get a copy for cheap at abebooks.com). This is like a Peat-version of Barnes' diet, substituting dairy (calcium) for most meats.

The PUFA could certainly come down, but the trade off is going to be more carbs which wont be metabolized as well (or less protein). I feel both trades are disadvantageous at the current stage when the system is taken as a whole, at differing stages of health and metabolism.

Please post your diary, I'd be interested in seeing. I've done extremely low fat diets (<2g daily PUFA), and there was an overarching feeling of hunger throughout. Skim milk, honey, maple syrup, orange juice, coffee, carrots with weekly oysters and liver. I also felt progress was slow, so I was suffering and for longer than was ideal. This way, I'm having more PUFA (double in fact, but double a small number is still a small number), but the progress is fast, and there are processes in place to deal with the imminent purge.
 

Anders86

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
355
Just curious, how much PUFA are you consuming on average? I have been averaging 2 grams, as mentioned, but this year started a much lower PUFA diet because I am cutting slightly for summer. From 2 grams to about 0.5 grams per day. From what I read, Peat says that he recommends 4 grams per day max for cancer benefits but to prevent or slow down PUFA accumulation, he says he eats a slight caloric deficit and tries to stay below 1.5 g PUFA per day. And to deplete PUFA, he recommends 0.5/0.6% of calories come from PUFA. So like around a gram or a little more, depending on calories. But some of the studies I have seen suggest for best results, around half a gram of PUFA per day. So I am trying to stay around 0.5-0.6 grams of PUFA, which pretty much means nothing but hydrogenated coconut oil in small amounts, skim milk, some Greek yogurt, OJ/fruit juice, and thats mostly it. Extreme, but this seems to be the only thing that works for me, is going very low fat/low PUFA. Peat says he doesn't tell most people to eat that low PUFA because it isn't realistic for most people/is hard to stick to for most people, but that is interesting because when I was new to Peat I was under the impression that eating under 4 grams or so would deplete PUFA. Kind of sucks because if I did it all over again I would have went very low right away but oh well. Still shouldn't take that long to see more improvements because I would still imagine the saturated fat and monosaturated fat to PUFA ratio is much better in my adipose tissue than what it was, so I would imagine it's not like it will take a few years all over again to hit the level where I am making mead acid and am EFA 'deficient' or near it. If my metabolism increased from cutting PUFA out from years ago, I can only imagine doing more of this may work better for me. It would also explain why a lot of people on here spend years and get no where, because they A) were probably eating no where near as low as Peat recommends to deplete PUFA and B) even if they were in a slight caloric surplus, and eating 4 or so grams of PUFA per day, some of that was stored over the years. This is my hypothesis as to why this is the case with so many people, and it makes sense to me. I was ultra low PUFA for one year and that was the year when I was the most fit and felt the best. So it all seems to be clicking with me now, and making more sense. I think the biggest mistake people are making is thinking overeating calories is not that harmless, even if they are s0-called Peating in their definition of it. I just don't see how anyone will ever have adipose tissue that is truly low in PUFA while they're eating at a caloric surplus and more than 0.6% or so of their calories from PUFA. PUFA seems to be more easily burned off by the body in a caloric deficit, but accumulates more in a caloric surplus, from what I have seen and Ray has stated. I may start a diary on here as well tracking my experience on the very low PUFA diet.

In the Email Exhange on diseased liver-

"Eliminating all PUFA would be the most important thing, and having lots of orange juice, other sugars including honey, and milk and gelatin. Cytomel, aspirin, acetazolamide, and progesterone all protect the liver and help to slow cancer growth. Some people use extremely large amounts of aspirin, which require supplements of vitamin K, to prevent bleeding. Fibrous foods such as bamboo shoots and laxatives such as cascara help to reduce the absorption of bowel toxins that promote cancer and burden the liver"

I feel best on low fat and very low PUFA too, but I believe my liver is in a delicate phase..
 

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
I feel best on low fat and very low PUFA too, but I believe my liver is in a delicate phase..

I feel terrible on low fat diets. Always hungry, and classic adrenaline-like symptoms, which I can only guess is because my liver isnt storing glycogen as it needs to
 

Anders86

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
355
I feel terrible on low fat diets. Always hungry, and classic adrenaline-like symptoms, which I can only guess is because my liver isnt storing glycogen as it needs to

I eat very often, bout every 2 hours. Milk and OJ or Milk and Honey. I do believe the adrenaline-like symptoms might be PUFA release since I can lower the symptoms with some Vitamin E. I get sluggish, unmotivated and easily depressed if I indulge in a bigger quantity of fat, and I feel it accumulates so I rarely know when my liver had enough.

Ill rather be happy with energy and eat often than be unmotivated and depressed. I`ll probably change up for some fat later but for now I will focus on low fat and loose fat. Remove that bad fat..

If I was you I would stock up on Vitamin E and take it topical, all over body. Head, feet, thick skin, thin skin etc. so it would release tiny amounts over a period of time. Aspirin, b vitamins, caffeine etc. for liver health.
 
Last edited:

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
I get sluggish, unmotivated and easily depressed if I indulge in a bigger quantity of fat, and I feel it accumulates so I rarely know when my liver had enough.

This is the opposite of how I feel eating a bigger quantity of fat
 

jamies33

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,472
Location
Canada
If one is overweight, and loaded with pufa,doesn't ANY weight loss liberate pufa?
Not necessarily; SFA are burned preferentially (which confirms experience)
 

theLaw

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
1,403
I eat very often, bout every 2 hours. Milk and OJ or Milk and Honey.

+1:thumbsup:

This is very similar to what member VOS posted about his diet. He claimed that he experienced a 90min window after which he would start to feel the effects wear off.

VoS Uncoupling Thread

I suspect that this might be a way to purge stored pufa very quickly.:darts:
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
charlie Thiamine status in patients receiving long-term home parenteral nutrition Scientific Studies 1
D What Other Busy Health/Nutrition Forums Are There? Health 33
P looking for help to start working out, ive only studied nutrition, where do i start with fitness? Exercise 8
livesimply Nutrition For Women Book Book Recommendations 16
Pdohlen Anti-Peat Do We Create Our Own Nutrition? Debate - Anti-Peat 117
theLaw Live Stream #23: Thoughts On "The Ray Peat Diet" With Emma Sgourakis (The Nutrition Coach) Danny Roddy 0
Beastmode Beyond Nutrition Email Advice 2
H Backlash Over Meat Recommendations Raises Questions About Corporate Ties To Nutrition Scientiests Miscellaneous Health Discussions 2
ddjd Peat Approach To Gall Bladder Problems? Diet/ Nutrition/ Exercise? Ask For Help or Advice 22
berk Wanted: Calories & Food Nutrition Excel Spreadsheet Calculator Macros & Micros 3
Amazoniac Tubers And Basic Nutrition: A Comparison Between Them Vegetables, Grains, Legumes, Fiber 1
Runenight201 Coincidence Or Global Shift In Nutrition The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 5
Francisco Thoughts On Daily Chocolate As A Major Source Of Nutrition Diet 35
Jamesu "Why You Can't Trust Nutrition Science & Health Claims" Including This One Miscellaneous Health Discussions 0
R Educated Bodybuilder Talks About Nutrition Diet 8
Inaut How Light Governs Physiology: Nutrition, Natural Sunlight And Photobiomodulation With Bart Kay Light 1
GreekDemiGod Testosterone Optimization On RP-inspired Nutrition Logs 428
sevenzy Any One Start A Garden/farm Animals For Better Nutrition Animals 12
O Ray Peat: "Sprouts Are Good Nutrition Like A Leave" Miscellaneous Health Discussions 9
skittles Sugar Without Adequate Nutrition = ? Sugar, Honey 33
jamies33 Keeping Nutrition Within Health 3
L Could You Review This Enteral Nutrition Product From A Ray Peat Standpoint? Diet 0
A People Have No Understanding Of Nutrition Ask For Help or Advice 102
ecstatichamster Did Anybody Fix Manboobs With Supplements, Nutrition Etc? Male Issues 30
B Formal Qualification In Nutrition Ask For Help or Advice 3
J Nutrition Data Of The US Of The Last Hundred Years Diet 8
Mossy Deciphering Fat Content On Nutrition Labels Fats 20
W Performance Nutrition (for Athletes) Diet 4
P Just Read "Balancing Body Chemistry With Nutrition" Book Recommendations 7
W Accurate Nutrition Data Sources? Diet 6
R Nutrition Researchers Have Once Again Linked Saturated Fats To Increased Coronary Heart Disease Ask For Help or Advice 20
Atma LSD Nutrition Alcohol, Tobacco, Drugs 6
Amazoniac Custom Supplement Files For Nutrition Tracking Apps Supplements 1
yerrag Parenteral Nutrition For People Who Can't Eat Diet 7
Amazoniac Nutrition For Women - Selected Parts Ray Peat Topics 85
Constatine Thinking About Creating A Ray Peat Nutrition App Ask For Help or Advice 11
E Dr Robert Morse Take On Nutrition - Similar To Ray Peat - Your Opinion Discussing Dietary Models 78
N Egg Shell Calcium Nutrition Data Calcium 8
I Cant Stop Thinking About Nutrition Mind, Sleep, Stress 10
Dan Wich Generative Energy #21: Beyond Nutrition: Are You Listening? Generative Energy Podcast 1
P [fructose Vs. Glucose In Total Parenteral Nutrition In Critically Ill Patients]. Scientific Studies 0
S The Only Three Things Everybody Agrees On When It Comes To Nutrition Breaking News 16
Dan Wich Generative Energy #13: Exploring Ray Peat's Work Beyond Nutrition Generative Energy Podcast 5
S Citadel Nutrition Athlete Vitamin Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 4
CoolTweetPete Nutrition Facts Labels - Help Understanding The Fat Breakdowns Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 9
Giraffe Sulfur In Human Nutrition And Applications In Medicine Miscellaneous Health Discussions 8
charlie Ray Peat Inspired Nutrition - A Day Of Eating (For Me) - Danny Roddy Danny Roddy 2
4peatssake Danny Roddy - "Ray Peat Inspired Nutrition - Everyday Milk" Recipes 32
Dan Wich Danny Roddy - "Ray Peat Inspired Nutrition - Oxtail" Recipes 2
Amazoniac Danny Roddy - "Ray Peat Inspired Nutrition - Liver Pâté" Recipes 28

Similar threads

Top