Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

[heartnhands]

Semantics being what they are I agree its best to speak of reality as it is and do everything possible to avoid offending anyone or allowing them to intrude on your rights to self determination. There are those who love to take advantage of the goodness of others and make them take responsibility for situations that have been designed to hide the strings to autonomy. Best to laugh and call the players for what they are and kindly offer a different dance.

 

[Tarmander]

Ownership/responsibility is at best very difficult to surmise with all the variables out there. However the strategies of taking responsibility for everything, or taking responsibility for nothing are long in practice for bettering yourself.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

First, I kinda agree with @Westside PUFAs that "Glucose is just glucose" -- a fairly neutral and "clean-burning" substrate (assuming none of your glucose-handling enzymes are screwed up).

 

[Ian Lenny]

This thread is starting to remind me of the arguments over at TPB on CICO vs low carb. People are getting quite defensive about their diet choices.

To clarify, I don't care what anyone chooses do try experiment with. I have done a ton of experimenting myself. I'm only saying that in the context of this thread, calories are not the biggest equation to fat lose and has little to nothing to do with PUFA reduction. In general, I don't believe calorie deficits to be a healthy or sustainable way of losing fat, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of dieters who do so with negative repercussions, usually losing muscle mass, reducing metabolism and regaining the same or more than the orginal fat loss. I'm aware that eating a Ray Peat inspired diet while restrictions calories is world's better than a SAD inspire diet or some sort of fast/cleanse, but still, catabolism is very big stressor and certainly inferior to the way I advocated doing this approach but like others are saying, it may not work for all. Although to the ones thinking of restricting, or that have already done it, have you tried eating a surplus of calories while eating a fat deficient diet? Until you have, I would suggest not getting so riled up on the subject.

Btw, yes I have tried both, I did lose fat on a lower caloriesl, vhc diet but I also atrophied muscle, became lethargic and cold.

I tried to PM you about this thread. I think earlier you mentioned that anyone with questions could do so. Anyway, it says I cannot start a convo with you? Any other way to reach you for PM? Anyway, thanks for the great info.

 

[Ian Lenny]

Well, here's my update: It's been six months since I finished this experiment. I currently weigh 135 pounds, my ending weight was 132 last September, so I have gained back 3 pounds in 6 months. Please note this winter included many crazy holiday/playoff games parties with LOTS of eating and NO exercise.

My metabolism has not slowed one bit, on the contrary, I have had to DROP my thyroid medication. I might add back a tiny bit (far less than my previous dose if I do), but I'm still watching how my body reacts to the change in weather etc. so I might not add it back at all. Waking temp is 98.2 and reaches 99.3 to 99.5 in the afternoon. I also noticed that I need more liquids, whereas prior to my experiment too many liquids made me feel cold or disturbed my digestion.

My conclusion is that rapid fat loss in a severely PUFA restricted environment does NOT wreck metabolism...That Ray Peat, he sure knows a thing or two.

One thing I was wondering: I know this works very well for people who need to lose a LOT of fat (I needed to lose 45-50 pounds), but my question is has anyone tried this to lose only ten or 15 pounds?

I might try this again....my ultimate goal is to be 120-125 (I'm only 5'2")...still thinking I should work it off through exercise, but sometimes too much exercise leaves me COLD (a feeling I've grown to hate).

Hey< Not sure if you are still interested in trying this. I could lend you some advice as I have done something similar and was thinking of doing this exact method of fat loss as many people in the forum have mentioned. I tried messaging you, but it said I could not due to your privacy settings.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Hey< Not sure if you are still interested in trying this. I could lend you some advice as I have done something similar and was thinking of doing this exact method of fat loss as many people in the forum have mentioned. I tried messaging you, but it said I could not due to your privacy settings.

Hi Ian Lenny,

What? I have privacy settings? I get messages from others just fine, so I'm not really sure what I need to change.....not trying to block you, I swear!

What exact method of fat loss are we talking about here? My apologies for not re-reading the entire thread, could you briefly bring me up to speed?

I'm still interested in losing 8 pounds or so of pure body fat....not looking to restrict calories much if at all, it doesn't seem to work as well (much higher stress response) as it did when I was much MUCH fatter.

I have no idea why fat loss gets more difficult when one is close to their goal....some people say the body is defending some sort of mysterious "Set=Point". I can't really get on board with that theory just yet, but I could be wrong. I often am.

I'd like to think that humans will naturally stabilize while eating a healthy natural food diet....like other animals in the wild seem to do just fine. I realize there are some animals that have tremendous seasonal swings for hibernation, I don't want to be one of those.

So where we at?

 

[Ian Lenny]

I have noticed that some people are able to lose fat on a sub maintenance calorie diet that is high in sugar, moderate in protein and low in fat like the one mentioned through out the forum. Others are able to lose fat with this type of diet without restricting calories. you have probably seen a few people mention doing this successfully while some people say it's impossible. I am definitely not going to argue for or against either method here. If you can lose fat without trying then even better.

What I would suggest is you can to as light a weight as you want while eating at or slightly above maintenance calories. If your weight loss stalls I would then try bringing calories down below maintenance like you mentioned in your earlier post. Obviously if the signs of stress return or are pretty pronounced you will have to bump it up. What I have noticed is that the signs of stress for dieting or when your body reacts strongly to lower calories are fairly individual and largelyu dependent on macronutrients. Once you get to the calorie level that has been giving your trouble you could then stay there and alter the fat to carbohydrate content, swapping out some of the sugar for saturated fat and vice versa. Also, as many people have probably mentioned, when going lower in calories, it always helps me to have some extra sodium maybe eating some salsa or something like that.

The main point is that playing around with the macronutrient composition of your diet, without driving yourself crazy, can have some really positive and unexpected effects. As you already know everybody's body is different and some people just don't like to stay light. No big deal either way / hope that helps.

 

[Bahaa El wazzan]

So I feel absolutely compelled to speak up here. Please understand that I don't have a scientific background or mind and I'm only relaying my personal results from my experiment. As a frame of reference, prior to Peat I was on a high fat low-carb diet for several years and ate a ton of PUFA during those years. My metabolism tanked and I started gaining weight (among many of other unpleasant side effects). I Googled metabolism, came across Peat's work and immediately jumped in head first. Within 5 months or so I had gained close to 30 more pounds on top of what I had already gained. It was downright scary, depressing and I was afraid that my metabolism was permanently broken.

I know that Peat believes losing weight slowly is more healthy/safer and I would have to agree, especially if you aren't taking thyroid meds. However, I was already on thyroid medication and so I figured what do I have to lose (except the obvious)? I figured I had enough body fat that if my body needed fat then it could pull from my ample reserves. My mitochondria were already mush, so to speak, and I was suffering.

I decided to do exactly this: I cut ALL fat from my diet, keeping it as low as possible (under 20 grams per day) and certainly NO PUFA. I ate 100 grams of LEAN protein (sometimes more) and massive amounts of sugar, ripe fruits and OJ. I paid close attention to my calcium phosphorous ratio as well as other minerals and made certain that I got plenty of sunshine, vit. A, vit. K and especially vit. E with lots of Progest-E too.

Results were that I went from 170+ to exactly 132.0 lbs. over the summer. I lost NO muscle at all and did NO exercise beyond going for a walk once in a while. I used a lot of caffeine, b vitamins, fat free dairy and gelatin too. My diet was somewhat boring, after all fat is delicious. I am happy to say that I had no stress response whatsoever. On the few occasions when I strayed and ate PUFA I could definitely feel it the next day. My skin would go greasy and break out, weight loss would stall and I would get pronounced estrogen symptoms. It was that quick and VERY noticeable.

If one is quite strict, this works beautifully for removing fat while preserving muscle. I have had many health improvements that I must believe are due to PUFA depletion. I still need to lose 7 or 8 more pounds, but thinking that should be done with exercise.

I started adding (saturated animal) fat back in to my diet a month ago and I have NOT gained an ounce. I never EVER would have believed it was possible for a middle-aged hypothyroid woman, but this works!

I simply MUST agree with haidut's conclusion, that waiting four years isn't all-together necessary, I could definitely feel the difference within weeks. Having said all this, perhaps I will be on thyroid meds for four more years...or for life, who knows? I don't have any overt signs of metabolic damage, in fact on the contrary. My temps are up and I feel better now than I have in DECADES.

Glad to hear thattttt

 

[Xhale1991]

So what diet were you doing before you started the low fat diet? You said you were already eating peat so what foods in particular did you cut out that made such a big difference? Im assuming it had to be some of the saturated fats?

So I feel absolutely compelled to speak up here. Please understand that I don't have a scientific background or mind and I'm only relaying my personal results from my experiment. As a frame of reference, prior to Peat I was on a high fat low-carb diet for several years and ate a ton of PUFA during those years. My metabolism tanked and I started gaining weight (among many of other unpleasant side effects). I Googled metabolism, came across Peat's work and immediately jumped in head first. Within 5 months or so I had gained close to 30 more pounds on top of what I had already gained. It was downright scary, depressing and I was afraid that my metabolism was permanently broken.

I know that Peat believes losing weight slowly is more healthy/safer and I would have to agree, especially if you aren't taking thyroid meds. However, I was already on thyroid medication and so I figured what do I have to lose (except the obvious)? I figured I had enough body fat that if my body needed fat then it could pull from my ample reserves. My mitochondria were already mush, so to speak, and I was suffering.

I decided to do exactly this: I cut ALL fat from my diet, keeping it as low as possible (under 20 grams per day) and certainly NO PUFA. I ate 100 grams of LEAN protein (sometimes more) and massive amounts of sugar, ripe fruits and OJ. I paid close attention to my calcium phosphorous ratio as well as other minerals and made certain that I got plenty of sunshine, vit. A, vit. K and especially vit. E with lots of Progest-E too.

Results were that I went from 170+ to exactly 132.0 lbs. over the summer. I lost NO muscle at all and did NO exercise beyond going for a walk once in a while. I used a lot of caffeine, b vitamins, fat free dairy and gelatin too. My diet was somewhat boring, after all fat is delicious. I am happy to say that I had no stress response whatsoever. On the few occasions when I strayed and ate PUFA I could definitely feel it the next day. My skin would go greasy and break out, weight loss would stall and I would get pronounced estrogen symptoms. It was that quick and VERY noticeable.

If one is quite strict, this works beautifully for removing fat while preserving muscle. I have had many health improvements that I must believe are due to PUFA depletion. I still need to lose 7 or 8 more pounds, but thinking that should be done with exercise.

I started adding (saturated animal) fat back in to my diet a month ago and I have NOT gained an ounce. I never EVER would have believed it was possible for a middle-aged hypothyroid woman, but this works!

I simply MUST agree with haidut's conclusion, that waiting four years isn't all-together necessary, I could definitely feel the difference within weeks. Having said all this, perhaps I will be on thyroid meds for four more years...or for life, who knows? I don't have any overt signs of metabolic damage, in fact on the contrary. My temps are up and I feel better now than I have in DECADES.

 

[Wagner83]

Nah, milk is one of those things which really doesn't agree with me (must be the Asian genes that are not happy ). I've tested all the different compounds in milk, and it's basically the the usual suspects -- casein and lactose -- which give me issues.

This is where I'll have to obey the basic rule of thumb -- If it's harmful to you right now, don't eat it.

I have managed to tolerate milk when un-stressed, but really lose tolerance when I have to work "startup hours" like I'm doing now

....

I can't really eat dairy either, I recently experienced with lactose free milk and was pleasantly surprised with the (lack of) results.

 

[superhuman]

RP has told me that 150g protein is the maximum amount he recommends and that is for extreme active athletes.

 

[tca300]

RP has told me that 150g protein is the maximum amount he recommends and that is for extreme active athletes.

Oops! 180+ for me lol!

 

[superhuman]

@tca300 180+ from animal sources? RP told me up to 200 protein a day could be ok for some period of muscle building and all that but that was only for a period and it was only ok :p

 

[tca300]

@tca300 180+ from animal sources? RP told me up to 200 protein a day could be ok for some period of muscle building and all that but that was only for a period and it was only ok :p

I find that if I dont get at least 150grams from complete protein sources I dont recover well from training. My protein comes from 16 cups of milk, orange juice, about 1oz of liver and about 5Tbs of gelatin per day. Maybe its harmful, but, strength training is important for my sanity, and I cant recover well and improve without about 1gram per pound of bodyweight. So total including gelatin I get about 180-200grams per day.

 

[superhuman]

@tca300 get you. Yeah when you add gelatin you can get away with more protein without harm. I love strength training as well and do it everyday because is as much as a form of meditation as a workout.
Any other things you notice in terms of increased protein intake? like recovery on what terms? any other things in terms of muscle building, metabolic rate, etc etc ? in terms of vs lower protein.

RP told me that 50-60g gelatin a day will abolish any harm from any amount of protein daily. So when you add gelatin you can get away with alot more protein.

 

[tca300]

@superhuman Ive chronically ate too little protein, so now im experiencing a lot of muscle growth with improved recovery. Before a heavy day of about 50 singles with weighted ring chinups, it would take about 12 days of rest before I could increase the weight or reps, now I can do them once per week. My weight maxes and reps are going up quickly too. Muscles seem fuller, and harder. Fat loss seems to be accelerated too. I've persistently had shoulder tearing issues, that limited upper body pushing movements, now that seems to have gone away, and Im able to do heavy overhead pressing without issues. As long as I have access to protein I will never ever go back to my 30-80grams per day again. Even if Im unable to lift anymore I wont go under 120grams. Life was terrible for too many years thinking protein was heavily overrated. Im humble enough to admit I was very wrong, and have changed my opinion.

 

[superhuman]

@tca300 great to hear. It seems like we have had a similar path to all this. I was vegan for 2-3 years so i only had max protein of 30-50g of protein a day coming from fruit and greens. I also did low carb vegan with even lower protein a day for 2-3 years. Combined with alot of water fasting for up to 21 days etc. So i also come from a chronically to little protein all my life but especially the last 8-10 years when i dabbled into all the health ***t which lead to eating way less protein.

Do you also pay attention to the carb:protein ratio? since i know only eating protein without enough carbs want give the benefit of protein since it will spike cortisol, and gluconeogenesis and all that jazz and amonia etc. Do you have a ratio you pay attention to and have you experimented with ratios and effects from them?

I know its also a bit controversy in terms of ratio on a meal to meal basis since fruit and sugar is absorbed way way quicker then protein so the digestion of the sugar will take say 30 min and protein can take 4-6 hours so on a meal to meal basis it does not really apply on terms of the effect right there of that meal but i think you understand what i mean

 

[tca300]

@superhuman I talk a lot about protein and its importance but I still hold carbohydrates at the top of my list. I never really experimented with a ratio lower that 1:2 so I dont know really. I get at least twice as many carbohydrates as protein, so no ratio per say just at least twice as many. Having a ratio much higher than 1:2 chronically would give me too many calories. When I've eaten about a 1:12 ratio Getting nearly 1000 grams of carbohydrates I felt euphoric and had lots of energy, but couldn't act on it or I would get muscle tears.
When Ray said 50-60 grams of gelatin would balace the problems of a high intake of inflammatory aminos, did he mean 50-60 grams of gelatin protein or 50-60 grams of gelatin by weight? Thanks!

 

[superhuman]

@tca300 get you, thanx again. Sorry i checked the email again it was 100 gram gelatin not 60, so thats 90g protein coming from gelatin.

 

[tca300]

@superhuman Thanks!!