Foolproof Nutrition Protocol For Life-long Weight Loss/PUFA Depletion

TripleOG

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You see this type of diet plan often with successful body recompositions.

Fatter people doing best with initial higher fat intake and lower carb intake. Carb:Fat ratio shifts towards carbs as one becomes lean, ultimately ending with a carb-centric diet. This also goes hand in hand with the ideology behind refeeds and diet breaks for lean dieters.

My anecdote:

Maaaaany years ago I took a familiar approach to drop 40lbs and achieve a muscular 8-10% bf.
  • High protein. 170-190g
  • Fats around 80g.
  • Carbs filled out the rest. Typically 150-200g.
  • 3x/week gym routine
  • Minimum 40min outdoor/treadmill walk on rest days

This was way before I knew Peat existed. I was on the anti-SFA, anti-sugar, anti-beef train back then. Results could've maybe been better with some Peaty adjustments. Milk, casein, and cottage cheese were in heavy rotation, though.

I would go on to "lean bulk" the next 6 months with a high carb (atleast 400g) diet, getting up to 3200 daily calories without excessive fat gain. The only form of exercise was weight lifting. The next time I cut for fatloss I was able to achieve my goal with 2800 calories and much higher carbs than previous attempts. A clear sign my metabolic health improved over this whole process even with suboptimal food choices.

It wasn't until I dabbled in ketogenic diets, excessive fasting, probiotics, green smoothies, and took on a stressful job that my health took a turn that lead me here. A life of excessive PUFA likely reached a tipping point as well.

Current observations:

The knowledge and experience gained here and elsewhere over the years brings me back to a weight loss strategy similar to the OP. There's also plenty of anecdotes here of overweight people finding weightloss success starting with higher fat. Nathan Hatch is one. This thread is another. Ray Peat gave anecdotes on KMUD about an overweight person he consulted with started losing weight after ADDING tbsps of coconut oil to his diet. Hell, even Ray gives an anecdote of his weight decreasing slightly after ADDING coconut oil.

I can also attest to higher BF% individuals doing better with higher fat intake initially. I'm somewhere between 15-18% bf. Every low fat attempt leaves me inflamed and water-logged with poor digestion lol. Yes, even with the most Peat-approved approaches. (no starch, carrots/mushrooms, micronutrient dense foods, paying attention to food allergies, managing water intake, etc). I don't have to be anywhere near as meticulous when fats are higher.

Thought I'd share. Didn't anticipate writing a wall of text, though. Ha.
 

CaliforniaKat

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I still haven't started this lower carb higher fat plan consistently. I'm so on the fence about what do to, and seriously need to lose 70 pounds.

I just can't seem to pull the trigger because I feel like I'm on information overload about everything. That lower carb is bad for thyroid, that super low fat is the only way to go...blah..blah..blah.But super low fat really made me feel icky. Panicky, hungry all the time, etc.

So my brain goes into overdrive trying to to sort out all this conflicting information and I end up in stasis. Not gaining at least. But now sitting at nearly 250 pounds as a 5 foot 8 female doesn't feel good at all.
 

redsun

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I still haven't started this lower carb higher fat plan consistently. I'm so on the fence about what do to, and seriously need to lose 70 pounds.

I just can't seem to pull the trigger because I feel like I'm on information overload about everything. That lower carb is bad for thyroid, that super low fat is the only way to go...blah..blah..blah.But super low fat really made me feel icky. Panicky, hungry all the time, etc.

So my brain goes into overdrive trying to to sort out all this conflicting information and I end up in stasis. Not gaining at least. But now sitting at nearly 250 pounds as a 5 foot 8 female doesn't feel good at all.

The purging of PUFA caused by super low fat is probably the primary reason you would feel bad on it. As for hunger, I too had hunger pangs when I attempted very low fat. Supplementing B complex and making sure to get all sufficient amounts of all required micronutrients really made the difference. B complex will help oxidize the carbs you eat properly.

If nutrient(especially Bs) intake is adequate and protein is sufficient, low fat will not be as hard. Vitamin E supplementation as well as making sure to get enough vitamin C will help deal with the released pufas.

If one has a lot of weight to lose, doing low fat is the best option and will improve metabolic and hormonal function as weight drops.
 

CaliforniaKat

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The purging of PUFA caused by super low fat is probably the primary reason you would feel bad on it. As for hunger, I too had hunger pangs when I attempted very low fat. Supplementing B complex and making sure to get all sufficient amounts of all required micronutrients really made the difference. B complex will help oxidize the carbs you eat properly.

If nutrient(especially Bs) intake is adequate and protein is sufficient, low fat will not be as hard. Vitamin E supplementation as well as making sure to get enough vitamin C will help deal with the released pufas.

If one has a lot of weight to lose, doing low fat is the best option and will improve metabolic and hormonal function as weight drops.

As it is I take a small dose of energin and estroban daily. 2 grains of NDT, progesterone, magnesium, C, salt, and track in cronometer. at least 1 tbsp of gelatin, good calcium to phosphorus ratio, 2-3 tsp of coconut oil daily. Starch some days but not all days. Eggs several times a week.

I know I need more light and movement. My macros are about 40% carbs, 30%pro, 30% fat including the coconut oil. 2200-2600 cals a day on average. And I measure pretty much everything that goes in my mouth.
 

Vinny

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So my brain goes into overdrive trying to to sort out all this conflicting information and I end up in stasis.
I have the same but also a mistery: Back in time, with HORRIBLE eating habits, drinking alcohol, knowing nothing about supplements/meds, I never got into obese range. Now, when my food hygiene improved 10x, I`m getting really fat.... damn.
The only way out of this crap I see is keep on experimenting, till you finally dug out what works and what degrades you....
 

Cirion

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I have the same but also a mistery: Back in time, with HORRIBLE eating habits, drinking alcohol, knowing nothing about supplements/meds, I never got into obese range. Now, when my food hygiene improved 10x, I`m getting really fat.... damn.
The only way out of this crap I see is keep on experimenting, till you finally dug out what works and what degrades you....

True but keep in mind several things.

-- You were younger (I also did whatever I want food wise when younger. I was lean but NOT HEALTHY! that's important to keep in mind too. Lean does not = healthy (not always anyway). I started to gain weight at around age 25 or so, having the exact same eating patterns etc, so I would have gotten overweight either way eventually. This is why all the lose weight threads don't really interest me that much because one can easily lose weight and wreck the metabolism along the way. Most people assume weight is the cause of a poor metabolism but it's a symptom of it, therefore it's super easy to lose weight and not fix the metabolism.

-- Kinda mentioned in other point, you likely weren't healthy with a good metabolism (at least, I was not). There's a lot of growing pains and things to learn when improving the metabolism for sure. But it'll pay off in the long run when you figure it out.
 

Vinny

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-- Kinda mentioned in other point, you likely weren't healthy with a good metabolism
True. I was leaner, but much sicker. Ironically, I`m in a better shape now, while obese.... go figure!
 
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As it is I take a small dose of energin and estroban daily. 2 grains of NDT, progesterone, magnesium, C, salt, and track in cronometer. at least 1 tbsp of gelatin, good calcium to phosphorus ratio, 2-3 tsp of coconut oil daily. Starch some days but not all days. Eggs several times a week.

I know I need more light and movement. My macros are about 40% carbs, 30%pro, 30% fat including the coconut oil. 2200-2600 cals a day on average. And I measure pretty much everything that goes in my mouth.

I remember you mentioning mirtazapine. Probably it's the reason for arested weightloss or even absence of it.
 
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YourUniverse

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As it is I take a small dose of energin and estroban daily. 2 grains of NDT, progesterone, magnesium, C, salt, and track in cronometer. at least 1 tbsp of gelatin, good calcium to phosphorus ratio, 2-3 tsp of coconut oil daily. Starch some days but not all days. Eggs several times a week.

I know I need more light and movement. My macros are about 40% carbs, 30%pro, 30% fat including the coconut oil. 2200-2600 cals a day on average. And I measure pretty much everything that goes in my mouth.
Uncommon opinion, but i think you should stop weighing and tracking. Maybe logging specific foods to get an understanding of their pufa content, but that is it
 
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YourUniverse

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I think the more neurotic a person has become re: health, the less they should monitor.

Avoid pufa, get sunlight, have more fun. The greater is your bodyfat%, the greater should be your saturated fat intake, tapered down slowly as the inches drop off. Let the rest fall into place naturally.
 
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accelerator

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I get ~4.5g PUFA per 2000 calories right now, and ~12og fat total. Lots of cheese, some coconut oil in the morning, an egg or some liver fried in butter. I dont take any hormonal supplements, including thyroid. Vitamin D, E, K, and L-theanine (an aspirin once or twice a week)

I think youre right about people overeating, and hoping their interpretation of Peat principles will catch them as they take the plunge. Granted, this method, which I think is logically hashed out, is not exactly "Peaty" in its initial borderline ketosis, although Broda Barnes recommended a diet extremely similar for obese patients (outlined in his book, Hypothyroidism - get a copy for cheap at abebooks.com). This is like a Peat-version of Barnes' diet, substituting dairy (calcium) for most meats.

The PUFA could certainly come down, but the trade off is going to be more carbs which wont be metabolized as well (or less protein). I feel both trades are disadvantageous at the current stage when the system is taken as a whole, at differing stages of health and metabolism.

Please post your diary, I'd be interested in seeing. I've done extremely low fat diets (<2g daily PUFA), and there was an overarching feeling of hunger throughout. Skim milk, honey, maple syrup, orange juice, coffee, carrots with weekly oysters and liver. I also felt progress was slow, so I was suffering and for longer than was ideal. This way, I'm having more PUFA (double in fact, but double a small number is still a small number), but the progress is fast, and there are processes in place to deal with the imminent purge.

When you say the progress is fast, what does that look like? 2lbs a week or something?
How much weight do you have to lose?
 
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@jamies33 Is the success of phase 1 predicated on a spontaneously created caloric deficit? What if consuming high fat leaves with the same caloric intake as a regular eating approach?
 

natewill

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Any updates for this thread? I'm curious to trying a higher fat approach for weight loss but like @CaliforniaKat said, I've been on the fence since most people agree that low carb eating trashes metabolism/ leads to insulin resistance. I believe my problem is I am eating too much fat (pufa) and carbs together and need to choose one until my metabolism improves...
 
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YourUniverse

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Although I had success with the approach, it fell apart during the "sprint to PUFA depletion" part and gained some weight back. Also, I couldn't shake the thought at the back of my mind that I was doing metabolic damage adhering to a higher fat diet (despite faring better on it..)

Reading this is an interesting look at my progression through health...
 

Jessie

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So like, my understanding is there's two primary ways to lose fat. On one hand we have lipolysis, this tends to produce fast results but it can cause metabolic disturbances and hormone imbalances when we have large amounts of PUFA being liberated. Eating a high saturated fat diet will tend to blunt many of these negative effects, but even high saturated fat diets will produce less CO2. It's quite the pickle. I'm certainly no expert on this but it seems like regardless of how much PUFA diluting you do, the high fat will result in less active T3, and the only way to not reduce T3 is to keep your liver stocked with glycogen, however if you do this then that will greatly slow lipolysis and your fat depletion.

The 2nd way to lose fat is by letting lipids in the adipocytes to get burned and produce heat/energy for those cells. From my understanding this seems to be the "metabolically safest" way to get rid of fat. Oxidizing it in the cells so that it doesn't liberate itself into the serum as free fatty acids, where it causes the most damage. Of course the downside with this is you need to be sensitive to active thyroid hormone, and as we all know there's numerous things that can interfere with our ability to remain sensitive to thyroid hormone. The process is also somewhat slower than lipolysis. Because you're basically relying on the parts of your body that burn fat at rest like the heart, muscles, skeleton, etc. to process everything.

Personally I like splitting the difference and using exogenous ketones with an otherwise lowish-fat approach. I have no way to support my theory here, but I feel like if we can limit fat oxidation and push ourselves toward glucose metabolism, our only problem at this point is PUFA blocking our ability to transport thyroid hormones (and possibly endotoxin poising our liver preventing it from turning T4 into T3). So consuming 1-3 tsp of MCT oil with an otherwise high carb meal will give us enough exogenous ketones to block all parts of PUFA's energy disrupting processes allowing us to better use thyroid and thus oxidizing fat while it's still in the cells. MCTs can also suppress many of the problems endotoxin causes from what I've been told.
 

Nicole Carter

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Interesting. I've always just done a lowfat high carb approach for weight loss. If you're eating low enough fats, somewhere between 35-50 grams for most people, you'll avoid triggering the randle cycle which will allow you to burn glucose for energy thus inhibiting lipolysis to a great degree. Doing this in a caloric deficit will only further accelerate weight loss, but could also trigger lipolysis, so taking niacinamide, aspirin, and vitamin E could really be useful to keep you in glucose oxidation. Thiamine (B1) would also be helpful, to prevent sugar from being converted into lactic acid. I guess we all have our own ways, granted this way is slower then a low carb approach, but much less stressful. People don't like hearing the best and healthiest weight loss is the low and slow weight loss, lol.
After college I took a job with CPS and we had no time for food so we always just had Starbucks, I had a non fat latte for breakfast and luck every day and lost so much weight. No idea what I ate for dinner, I was like 22 but it worked.
 

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