PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

[Light]

It is far too soon to say. I'll report back for sure though.

Great :) Looking foreward to hear.

 

[Cirion]

The one thing I have realized after a couple of weeks is that *some* meat is required. I am having strong cravings for meat after 2 weeks of no meat (virtually all protein from skim milk currently). So RP was right about the occasional liver. So there will be one or two days a week where I have to have more PUFA than I'd like (but still under 4 gram). I like the liverwurst that wellness meats sells because it not only has liver but also heart and kidney.

 

[tara]

@tara I've been trying to find fruits that are high in prorein yet very very low in pufa.
Even orange juice has quite alot of pufa if you have a liter a day, especially if you're trying to keep PUFA under 0.5g/day.
The only way I found to get 40g of protein from fruit (non starchy fruit) is to have about 20 cups a day, way too much for me.
Can you specify how you got to that amount? I'm trying to get more protein from fruit and that would be really helpful.

Can't remember what I was thinking in detail a year ago, sorry. If it comes back to me soon, I'll try to find my way back here to add more. I think Jennifer has written about living (and rebuilding/restoring health) largely on fruit for long periods, at around 3000 cals, but can't remember if she's written about how much protein that's included.

I just looked up OJ concentrate. (You'd get about the same protein/cal ratio from fresh, but more water).
Looks like for ~2400 cal, mostly carbs, you can get about 36 g protein. Since most adults need more cals than that to run a healthy metabolism, I think that could get up to 40-50g protein for many.
Not that I'd recommend living on OJ alone. I expect you'd get a better range of amino acids and keto acids by eating a range of fruit. Dried fruit can also reduce water excess, if that's part of the issue.
I think some have higher protein density, as well as variable carb-density, but not up with them all. I'm assuming you're not going big on avocados. Creamed coconut is up there.

I imagine staying under 0.5% PUFA would be hard. Not sure whether it would be worth it for long.

 

[Cirion]

I noticed the same thing from oranges and many fruit. I decided it is not worth getting so OCD about pufa that I even avoid ones from quality sugary fruits that have like 0.1g of it. If that means breaking my 0.5g PUFA goal and being at around 1 gram, so be it. Just my opinion though. The only way that I know to get protein and zero PUFA is by using skim milk, and/or gelatin.

 

[Light]

Even the 0% milk has some pufa.
And a good amount of fruit will also have a few grams of it - about 4-5g.
OJ the same.
It really doesn't seem possible to have a fat-free diet, even if it's only for a couple of weeks to detoxify,
I guess supplementing with some niacinamide and vitamin E would have to do.

Thinking of doing EODF (Every Other Day Feeding) for a week or two, since metabolism doesn't drop much on the first day of a fast it might offer the benefits of fasting without any real damage -
On feeding day just fruit and 0% milk, on fast day just water, and spending the whole day resting in bed.

 

[Waremu]

Even the 0% milk has some pufa.
And a good amount of fruit will also have a few grams of it - about 4-5g.
OJ the same.
It really doesn't seem possible to have a fat-free diet, even if it's only for a couple of weeks to detoxify,
I guess supplementing with some niacinamide and vitamin E would have to do.

Thinking of doing EODF (Every Other Day Feeding) for a week or two, since metabolism doesn't drop much on the first day of a fast it might offer the benefits of fasting without any real damage -
On feeding day just fruit and 0% milk, on fast day just water, and spending the whole day resting in bed.

Skim milk barely has any PUFA or fat. You could drink an entire gallon and would have only around 0.1g of PUFA and most of your nutrients covered. Throw in beef liver and some occasional 3% lean beef or rotate with a quart of OJ and you have around 0.5/0.6 g of PUFA and most if not all of your nutrients met. That is what I am currently doing. It depends on what fruit you're eating, but some of the very tropical or dessert type of fruits are very low in PUFA and you could eat a ton of them. Dates for example, virtually have no PUFA. You could eat over 6600 calories of dates alone and still not hit 0.1-0.2 grams of PUFA. You could eat 4 cups of grapes, 100 dates, and 5 oranges and be only at 0.5 grams of PUFA. And even then, with the fruit fiber, all the small amounts of PUFA likely won't be absorbed and some will be passed out in feces. You could easily eat a ton of fruit and stay under or at 1 gram of PUFA. (Dates are very high in magnesium and available year around too.) You could eat skim milk and dates in obscene quantities and still not even hit anywhere near 0.5 grams of PUFA and have almost all of your nutritional needs met. There were people who lived off of mostly dates and milk in parts of the middle east. They were great travel foods for dessert travelers who would travel with their milk goats/sheep.

It is very possible to do very very low fat. It's just not doable for many people because they're either coming out of such a poor state of health or have an unhealthy emotional connection to food, or just choose enjoyment of their food over being strict. And that is fine, I don't fault anyone for choosing to say it is not for them. Nothing wrong with that. But other than the mental aspect, it is actually quite doable to do very low fat/PUFA and get your nutritional needs met, providing one isn't in really bad health.

The way I look at it, I am biohacking my body. I personally wouldn't say I am ultra low fat,...just very low PUFA, since I get hydrogenated coconut oil in decent amounts in my diet.

 

[cyclops]

Throw in beef liver and some occasional 3% lean beef

What do you get from the occasional 3% lean beef that your not getting elsewhere in your diet? Surprised to hear this as second in line after beef liver for adding nutrients to the diet. Usually people are adding occasional oysters or eggs.

 

[Waremu]

What do you get from the occasional 3% lean beef that your not getting elsewhere in your diet? Surprised to hear this as second in line after beef liver for adding nutrients to the diet. Usually people are adding occasional oysters, seafood, etc

Mainly just to not get too bored and give my body some bulk food, and for the niacin, choline, and extra zinc. I don't like to rely on just milk all the time for all of my zinc. Milk is very high in the other b vitamins but lower in the niacin. I think it's good on the digestive system to not be eating a bunch of meals throughout the day, but I also think having at least one meal a day or every other day of some meat bulk is good too. I don't think it takes much either. That way it's more balanced for me and not 100% liquid all of the time. But that said, liquid doesn't bother me.

What I actually will sometimes do is add 1 oz of beef liver (.2 grams PUFA) and 3 oz of 97% fat beef (.2 grams PUFA) and mix it and cook it up, sometimes with a few egg whites, if I want an omelet. Pretty good, and I get liver that tastes more like beef than liver. Egg whites are a good source of natural BCAA's and I add a gelatin so it balances out the amino acids and I don't get the serotonin effects.

I don't eat whole eggs because it adds too much PUFA for my goals of eating low enough in PUFA so that very little if any accumulates with age. I used to eat eggs, but don't think it adds necessary nutrition that milk and liver can't add. I still will have an oyster or two at a time every other day or a few times per week as well. Mainly for the zinc. (Your body won't use the amount of zinc in more than 1-2 or so oysters at a time anyway because they are very high in zinc.) The meat and oysters help keep my iron from getting too low as well. On days I do not eat meat, I fill it in with lemon and orange juice for the folate and Vitamin C and extra Vitamin B1. Coffee adds some vitamins and magnesium as well. I may experiment with dates because they offer so much nutrition for having virtually no PUFA.

 

[Cirion]

It is very possible to do very very low fat. It's just not doable for many people because they're either coming out of such a poor state of health or have an unhealthy emotional connection to food, or just choose enjoyment of their food over being strict. And that is fine, I don't fault anyone for choosing to say it is not for them. Nothing wrong with that. But other than the mental aspect, it is actually quite doable to do very low fat/PUFA and get your nutritional needs met, providing one isn't in really bad health.

The way I look at it, I am biohacking my body. I personally wouldn't say I am ultra low fat,...just very low PUFA, since I get hydrogenated coconut oil in decent amounts in my diet.

I'm actually doing ultra low pufa because I'm not healthy. I was trying to not be strict, but that was not making me get better. I now think anyone who is not healthy needs to just bite the bullet and go low pufa at least (maybe not low overall fat). IT may suck at first but I think as long as lots of fats are intaken in the form of hydrogenated coconut oil it should be relatively tolerable. I wouldn't suggest a newbie to go low TOTAL fat though.

I have heard from other sources besides Peat that someone who is sick should be exclusively getting coconut oil for fats. so I think more people are starting to get on board the (lack of) PUFA train.

btw - since ditching almost all pufa and going higher carb / lower fat, I am starting to notice some random pains slowly get less and less... makes sense because in the past I'd made the connection that lots of PUFA's = random aches and pains

 

[Waremu]

I'm actually doing ultra low pufa because I'm not healthy. I was trying to not be strict, but that was not making me get better. I now think anyone who is not healthy needs to just bite the bullet and go low pufa at least (maybe not low overall fat). IT may suck at first but I think as long as lots of fats are intaken in the form of hydrogenated coconut oil it should be relatively tolerable. I wouldn't suggest a newbie to go low TOTAL fat though.

Thats good, but some people are in such a poor state of health that they just cannot cold turkey do something strict like I am or you are doing, so that is why I say that. But for them I'd still restrict PUFA as much as possible, just maybe not as strict as I am doing at first. But I am mostly talking about people who, as I said, are in very bad shape, like clinically obese, etc. But others who are not that bad in shape or are, but can handle it, may be able to do it to a higher degree of success. I just wouldn't recommend an obese person go cold turkey because losing too much weight too fast can in of itself bring on complications. But many people, as I said, suffer from unhealthy emotional relationships with food and they're usually better off getting their emotional issues worked out before doing anything strict, otherwise they'll keep relapsing. I've seen it happen so much. I've seen people who restricted PUFA very much so for years and then go on week or month long PUFA/junk food binges when something bad happens in their life, etc. But there are some who just need discipline and maybe going cold turkey for them is the best thing. A lot of it is very individual. But yeah, I am a cold turkey kind of guy myself. Don't think I would have been able to though when I had a more unhealthy relationship with food.

I have heard from other sources besides Peat that someone who is sick should be exclusively getting coconut oil for fats. so I think more people are starting to get on board the (lack of) PUFA train.

btw - since ditching almost all pufa and going higher carb / lower fat, I am starting to notice some random pains slowly get less and less... makes sense because in the past I'd made the connection that lots of PUFA's = random aches and pains

Yeah, I had backpain that mostly went away from restricting PUFA. I thought it was pasteurized diary related for a while bit it turned out it wasn't when I traded it in for raw milk. I was eating a little more PUFA (eggs, etc.). It's mostly gone again since lowering my intake drastically. It sometimes takes time to adjust and when I tried being more strict years ago, I was starting to feel good but kept ruining it because it was too hard for me mentally to cut out some of the foods I liked. But it was so dumb because I feel so great now and would have been feeling great much longer if I had of just stuck with it and disciplined myself that those "favorite" foods of mine like a lot of high fat cheeses and ice cream were not something I needed and that it was entirely mental. But funny thing is, I don't crave them anymore after changing my mindset and sticking to this way of eating long enough. I have also found that cravings for foods like that is usually a sign that I need more minerals like Zinc, and almost always goes away when I eat oysters or meat, etc.

 

[cyclops]

What do you guys think the difference between going VERY LOW PUFA (but not very low total fat) vs VERY LOW TOTAL FAT is? Like how do you expect a person to feel different? If they are eating high carb there should not be much fat liberated either way, no?

 

[Waremu]

What do you guys think the difference between going VERY LOW PUFA (but not very low total fat) vs VERY LOW TOTAL FAT is? Like how do you expect a person to feel different? If they are eating high carb there should not be much fat liberated either way, no?

Well I am still low fat, technically speaking, just not ultra low fat. But I stay to the upper side of low fat because it allows me to have some fat to better absorb fat soluble vitamins and also it may possibly help increase the benefits of PUFA depletion (at least some studies posted to this forum before seem to suggest that as a possibility). Your body will always be burning some fat, but it is probably best to burn a little with a slight caloric deficit and some through muscle, which is why I recommend some type of weight lifting. Muscles prefer to burn fat at rest, but I try to support that type of fat burning and not so much through the other way, so I just try to keep blood sugar stable throughout the day and get plenty of protein to support lean muscle mass growth. I feel different and better all around eating lower fat. Less sluggish, more snappy and more mental clarity. I lose weight too. But for some it takes time to make this transition especially if they have been consuming higher fat or relying on fat for energy more, and they will need to support it via nutrition and tissue PUFA saturation is a factor as well.

 

[Cirion]

Thats good, but some people are in such a poor state of health that they just cannot cold turkey do something strict like I am or you are doing, so that is why I say that. But for them I'd still restrict PUFA as much as possible, just maybe not as strict as I am doing at first. But I am mostly talking about people who, as I said, are in very bad shape, like clinically obese, etc. But others who are not that bad in shape or are, but can handle it, may be able to do it to a higher degree of success. I just wouldn't recommend an obese person go cold turkey because losing too much weight too fast can in of itself bring on complications. But many people, as I said, suffer from unhealthy emotional relationships with food and they're usually better off getting their emotional issues worked out before doing anything strict, otherwise they'll keep relapsing. I've seen it happen so much. I've seen people who restricted PUFA very much so for years and then go on week or month long PUFA/junk food binges when something bad happens in their life, etc. But there are some who just need discipline and maybe going cold turkey for them is the best thing. A lot of it is very individual. But yeah, I am a cold turkey kind of guy myself. Don't think I would have been able to though when I had a more unhealthy relationship with food.

Understandable, but actually I think it's almost impossible to lose weight if you're obese while still eating PUFAs. At least that's my current experience. That's probably why the recommendation for sick people is to eat exclusively coconut oil and no other fats. At this point I'm probably considered obese, I have a ton of weight to lose, probably like 70-80 lbs. I kept gaining and gaining while being liberal with fats (pufa's) with no end in sight. I was eating copious butter, dairy fat, chocolate, etc, and gaining weight at an insane pace. I am hoping that now my weight will stabilize and finally start to drop. I'm hardly worried about it dropping too fast, I mean, I haven't noticed it drop at all let alone fast yet lol. I am sure I'm still eating too much caloric wise, but I have to or my temps drop. My appetite does not seem to get satiated with a normal amount of calories, even when I'm restricting PUFA's to as low as 0.5 gram in a day and getting upwards of 100 grams of SFA's.

 

[Waremu]

Understandable, but actually I think it's almost impossible to lose weight if you're obese while still eating PUFAs. At least that's my current experience. That's probably why the recommendation for sick people is to eat exclusively coconut oil and no other fats. At this point I'm probably considered obese, I have a ton of weight to lose, probably like 70-80 lbs. I kept gaining and gaining while being liberal with fats (pufa's) with no end in sight. I was eating copious butter, dairy fat, chocolate, etc, and gaining weight at an insane pace. I am hoping that now my weight will stabilize and finally start to drop. I'm hardly worried about it dropping too fast, I mean, I haven't noticed it drop at all let alone fast yet lol. I am sure I'm still eating too much caloric wise, but I have to or my temps drop. My appetite does not seem to get satiated with a normal amount of calories, even when I'm restricting PUFA's to as low as 0.5 gram in a day and getting upwards of 100 grams of SFA's.

Well, there are many people who lose weight still eating some PUFA, they just lose it in a very unhealthy way by sacrificing long term health for short term gain. Many people go on starvation type diets and their bodies will burn off fat including accumulated PUFA faster perhaps, but it will be done in a very unhealthy way because calories are dropped so low and muscle is lost too so they often end up gaining the weight back if they go back to a normal calorie intake. But yeah, if you want to lose weight in a healthy way, it's best to cut out as much PUFA as possible. But what I am doing is very strict and it takes a healthy mind and plenty of will power and discipline to do and many people in a poor state of health who also have a bad emotional relationship with food wouldn't be able to do that I don't think. But there are some who gain weight and are so motivated to lose weight they can do it. Yeah, thats how I ended up gaining weight too. Lots of those 'good healthy' fats, lol. I find that if I regularly eat liver and oyster then it helps my appetite for some reason. It may be related to the zinc. How often do you have liver and oysters? Might be something to consider if you don't eat it very often. I also find caffeine from coffee helps my appetite.

 

[Amazoniac]

Has anyone tried to dress in polar clothes all the time for a month? It's something similar to the 'Temperature Reset' thread but continuous, leaving the body no choice but to adapt its composition to it, just like Raj's pigs example.

 

[olive]

Has anyone tried to dress in polar clothes all the time for a month? It's something similar to the 'Temperature Reset' thread but continuous, leaving the body no choice but to adapt its composition to it, just like Raj's pigs example.

I believe the body would lower basal metabolism in order to lower body temperature to prevent over heating, similar to what happens on DNP.

 

[Amazoniac]

I believe the body would lower basal metabolism in order to lower body temperature to prevent over heating, similar to what happens on DNP.

For someone that struggles to maintain the body temperature normal, wearing heavy clothing will ease the burden of insufficient energy production and perhaps the change in fatty composition of tissues that might go along. If it's excessive it can be wasteful, but it's preferable to let the body lower it as needed (provided that the person has access to nutrition), than not being able to generate enough; which is why Raj commented that people with hypopboydism do better on warm climates, and sometimes the condition being barely noticeable.

 

[tara]

Has anyone tried to dress in polar clothes all the time for a month?

I've lived in houses like that. It's hard to get the fingers moving enough to make breakfast in the cold, and clumsy with gloves. Getting undressed for the shower can be a challenge. :)

 

[jzeno]

I just heard about this guy who did a potato diet for over a year:



Just need about 11 potatoes per day for 30 days I suppose.

 

[Hanzo]

i just ate 1.6 pufa today is body going to restart the depletion tomorrow? :/