Dr. Peat’s protein recommendations seem lower especially for older people

[Blossom]

So true. Ben Pakulsi just had Ben Bikman on his show and they talked exactly about this notion that people think protein is bad, why that is, and why it's not.

Ben is great!

 

[Cloudhands]

How do you eat a lot of protein while on glucose metabolism without absolutely gorging on carbs in order to avoid stress from blood sugar reduction? Years ago on ketosis I had no problems with eating lots of protein, but these days I can hardly eat as much as I'd like because it's just too stressful to the body.

do u lift heavy?

 

[Ritchie]

Bruh. I recommend you check out his vids as well as Paul Saladino's content. They do a great job at debunking all the "meat is bad for you" myths.

Bruh haha c'mon stop BS'n.. You telling me to go watch YouTube vids? Look, if you have seen any actual research/studies backing up that claim - that excess protein causes your system to become more anabolic, I'd love to see it..

That goes for your whole post. Too many misconceptions are gotten from association studies.

Let me clarify.. are you saying you are not happy with the research I linked in response to your claim that "eating large amounts of protein hasn't been shown to be detrimental in humans" because it shows an association between eating large amounts of protein and detrimental health in humans?

And the anti-aging thing has only been shown in animals when they are fed a totally unnatural diet in an unnatural environment under unnatural conditions.

The Okinawan and associated research on anti aging I linked are not on animals but humans and is literally in a natural environment.

studies have found that average protein consumption is below 100g daily, moreso around 60-70g. People seriously don't overeat on protein.

I just explained how easy it is for the typical diet to far exceed protein requirements.. Do you mind linking a study you are referring to that found average protein consumption lower than required? Btw an 80kg male would only need 70-80g protein if we are going by the 1g per 1kg body weight, not 100g. Most research actually points to 0.8g per 1kg, with anything beyond that not being utilised by the body and 'wasted', but i think to account for activity levels on average, 1g per kg is probably a good measure. Most people would definitely be eating more than that, like I said one 250gm steak (or chicken, or fish) and veges would equate to that.

 

[TheSir]

do u lift heavy?

No I only walk as exercise.

 

[Hans]

Bruh haha c'mon stop BS'n.. You telling me to go watch YouTube vids? Look, if you have seen any actual research/studies backing up that claim - that excess protein causes your system to become more anabolic, I'd love to see it..

As if experts are too old school to use Youtube.
I do know a lot about protein as I read a lot of papers and listen to other experts, but I'm not a protein specialist. My main research focus is on androgens and neurotransmitters. Layne is an actual expert. He's a protein scientist with an actual lab doing actual research in humans. Not association crap.
Also, Paul Saladino has been obsessing about this for years and he's a great resource on this. Association studies can give you ideas where to look or what to test, but can never show causation.
Perhaps the confusion comes in that I didn't specify protein intake in resistance trainees. People that don't lift don't need as much protein like those that do. For those, that lift, up to 2g/kg/BW from real foods seem to be the sweet spot.

As for the elderly:
"Experts in the field of protein and aging recommend a protein intake between 1.2 and 2.0 g/kg/day or higher for elderly adults [3,8,15]. The RDA of 0.8 g/kg/day is well below these recommendations and reflects a value at the lowest end of the AMDR. It is estimated that 38% of adult men and 41% of adult women have dietary protein intakes below the RDA [16,17]." (R)

"Experimental studies that compared muscle protein synthetic (MPS) responses to protein ingestion in young and old adults suggest that a higher relative protein intake is required to maximally stimulate skeletal muscle MPS in the aged. Although, data on MPS responses to protein ingestion in the oldest old are currently lacking. Collectively, the data reviewed for this article support the concept that there is a close interaction of physical activity, diet, function and ageing. An attractive hypothesis is that regular physical activity may preserve and even enhance the responsiveness of ageing skeletal muscle to protein intake, until very advanced age." (R)
The above study suggests that unless an old person lifts weights or some form of load bearing exercise, they need higher protein due to anabolic resistance.

"Most older adults who have acute or chronic diseases need even more dietary protein (ie, 1.2-1.5 g/kg body weight/d). Older people with severe kidney disease (ie, estimated GFR <30 mL/min/1.73 m(2)), but who are not on dialysis, are an exception to this rule; these individuals may need to limit protein intake." (R)

As for the misconceptions that protein is harmful to health, I'd recommend you check out Paul's work. He has done most of the debunking in a very non-dogmatic, non-religious way.

The Okinawan and associated research on anti aging I linked are not on animals but humans and is literally in a natural environment.

Before WW2 they were eating a lot of meat. Their sweet potato diet is due to poverty and is not the key to their longevity. Plus, their longevity is only due to their diet right. Not due to low stress, fellowship, clean environment, great genes, etc right? Peter Attia mentioned that most centenarians are centenarians due to their genetics and not their diet or lifestyle, since most of them drink alcohol, smoke, eat junk, etc.

I just explained how easy it is for the typical diet to far exceed protein requirements.. Do you mind linking a study you are referring to that found average protein consumption lower than required? Btw an 80kg male would only need 70-80g protein if we are going by the 1g per 1kg body weight, not 100g. Most research actually points to 0.8g per 1kg, with anything beyond that not being utilised by the body and 'wasted', but i think to account for activity levels on average, 1g per kg is probably a good measure. Most people would definitely be eating more than that, like I said one 250gm steak (or chicken, or fish) and veges would equate to that.

Explaining things, in theory, is one thing. Reality is another.

"Using the most recent data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, 2003-2004, usual protein intake for Americans aged 2+ years was estimated. Usual protein intake was calculated on a grams per day, grams per kilogram ideal body weight, and a percentage of calories basis. Protein intake averaged 56 +/- 14 g/d in young children, increased to a high of approximately 91 +/- 22 g/d in adults aged 19-30 y, and decreased to approximately 66 +/- 17 g/d in the elderly." (R)
"Even the 95th percentile of protein intake did not approach the highest acceptable macronutrient distribution range of 35% for an age/sex group. The highest 95th percentile of protein intake was 20.8% of calories in men aged 51-70 y." (R)

Clearly, most people in America around 2003-2004 were not eating a lot of protein. Even the people that were eating the most were only getting around 20% of the from protein.

"There were 43 996 respondents (weighted mean age, 46.9 years; 51.9% women). From 1999 to 2016, the estimated energy from total carbohydrates declined from 52.5% to 50.5% (difference, −2.02%; 95% CI, −2.41% to −1.63%), whereas that of total protein and total fat increased from 15.5% to 16.4% (difference, 0.82%; 95% CI, 0.67%-0.97%) and from 32.0% to 33.2% (difference, 1.20%; 95% CI, 0.84%-1.55%), respectively (all P < .001 for trend). Estimated energy from low-quality carbohydrates decreased by 3.25% (95% CI, 2.74%-3.75%; P < .001 for trend) from 45.1% to 41.8%. Increases were observed in estimated energy from high-quality carbohydrates (by 1.23% [95% CI, 0.84%-1.61%] from 7.42% to 8.65%), plant protein (by 0.38% [95% CI, 0.28%-0.49%] from 5.38% to 5.76%), saturated fatty acids (by 0.36% [95% CI, 0.20%-0.51%] from 11.5% to 11.9%), and polyunsaturated fatty acids (by 0.65% [95% CI, 0.56%-0.74%] from 7.58% to 8.23%) (all P < .001 for trend). The estimated overall Healthy Eating Index 2015 increased from 55.7 to 57.7 (difference, 2.01; 95% CI, 0.86-3.16; P < .001 for trend). Trends in high- and low-quality carbohydrates primarily reflected higher estimated energy from whole grains (0.65%) and reduced estimated energy from added sugars (−2.00%), respectively. Trends in plant protein were predominantly due to higher estimated intake of whole grains (0.12%) and nuts (0.09%)." (R)

People are not eating a lot of protein and the bunch of the protein they do eat is from plants. Why would people eat a lot of protein when it's been demonized so much?

 

[Amazoniac]

Love a bit of bro science. Seen any studies and research lending weight to this claim?

There's truth to it. If you had read the links on the first page, it would direct you to:

- How much protein can the body use in a single meal for muscle-building? Implications for daily protein distribution

⬑ Is there a maximal anabolic response to protein intake with a meal?
⬑ The anabolic response to a meal containing different amounts of protein is not limited by the maximal stimulation of protein synthesis in healthy young adults

↳ The Anabolic Response to Dietary Protein Is Not Limited by the Maximal Stimulation of Protein Synthesis in Healthy Older Adults: A Randomized Crossover Trial​

Well there is a certain amount of protein that the body can process and assimilate as protein and the functions it plays, beyond that it will become progressively detrimental to metabolism and general health. This is because excess will have to be converted to energy via gluconeogenesis, which is a taxing process physiologically, particularly if it's chronic. On top of this, processing excess protein is a burden on the kidney's and I'm sure has many other issues. Many people consume alot of protein because they are under the impression it is good for them and their health, obviously if it isn't then it is advantageous to understand that and adjust consumption accordingly.

In light of that, it would be most beneficial to understand at the mechanistic level how much protein our bodies can actually process as protein, and make sure we get about that in our diet and not go to far beyond. Granted this will vary somewhat depending on age, activity levels, muscle mass and so forth, however from what I gather the bracket is still vastly lower than what is generally consumed. Particularly when consuming adequate glucose from carbohydrates. This is the rationale that Peat seems to be working with currently, and why he has been focused on getting his protein level intake in line with his requirements.

I would definitely disagree with what you say here that "no diet is superior than another for increasing energy expenditure and helping with fat loss"... If one is eating a diet that is hindering their health then that diet would be inferior to one that is fostering good health and a fully flourishing system. Eliminating burdens like excess protein processing is part of that.

Yes, it gets wasteful once the basic needs are met and can be an additional 'burden' for the burdened. Someone may be prone to the elevation of homocysteine, sulfite, ammonia and regular episodes of glucose level drops, quickly leading to a situation where protein was seemingly consumed without sufficient crapohydrates.

- Repeated Measures of Blood and Breath Ammonia in Response to Control, Moderate and High Protein Dose in Healthy Men​

On ammonia production and disposal, I am aware of the 'Maximal Rate of Urea Synthesis' concept and that metabolic capacity can be high, but there's a cost to these processes. They depend on PLP and NAD+, which protein-rich foods may provide, but for a depleted person, vitamins use can be dispersed in repletion. The case here is unlike "vitamin" D, that we deal with minute amounts, we would have tens on grams to be metabolized in a certain time window.

- Effects of a high protein diet and liver disease in an in silico model of human ammonia metabolism

"Amino acid catabolism first relies upon the transfer of the amino group by aminotransferases to a ketoacid, often to alpha-ketoglutarate to form glutamate, and then by the deamination of glutamate by glutamate dehydrogenase which produces ammonia (NH3)."​

- Amino Acid Metabolism | NYU School of Medicine​

Also, a disturbed gut will be deteriorated with too much protein (feeds pathogens, they thrive and return harmful metabolites). One of many examples that can be broughted up:

- Problems With Sulphur

- Daily per capita protein supply | Our World in the Data​

An interesting aspect about longevity is that the person has to survive in the first place. There will be trade-offs with protein restriction, it's up to the person to decide if it's worth it, but the same goes for protein in abundance.

 

[Sefton10]

So true. Ben Pakulsi just had Ben Bikman on his show and they talked exactly about this notion that people think protein is bad, why that is, and why it's not.

Bikman is not a good advert for a high protein diet

 

[Hans]

Bikman is not a good advert for a high protein diet

View attachment 36617

It sounds like you're assuming that he looked different (better) before researching the benefits of meat and protein?

I'm not exactly sure how old he is, but apart from the sunspots (hyperpigmentation), I think he still looks great.
I think he's also into keto though, which I'd say is much more stressful on the body than just eating animal-based. But judging someone by their facial appearance alone isn't being fair-minded at all. On that headshot, it looks like he has no eyebrows at all, while his eyebrows are actually just very light (most likely due to genetics). And unless you know what his family looks like there's no way to say if his hyperpigmentation is just genetics or not and we also don't know how his diet looked before a few years ago. He might be against a low protein diet but he's also not on a very high protein diet.

A lot of people look at Peat and Georgie and don't feel they are good representations of health. The actual question is to ask oneself, "am I the representation of optimal health?" and "am I happy where I'm at in my own health journey right now?"

 

[Ritchie]

For those, that lift, up to 2g/kg/BW from real foods seem to be the sweet spot.

I guess this is what I'm questioning, how do you know that? I mean, from a mechanistic level, for those that lift and those that don't, at what point does protein become 'wasted' and not utilised? Have you seen any studies on that specifically? I think that's the interesting thing to look at, ie at what point/amount does our body stop using protein for protein...

As for the misconceptions that protein is harmful to health, I'd recommend you check out Paul's work. He has done most of the debunking in a very non-dogmatic, non-religious way.

Yes and Peat has discussed this extensively - what happens to protein when in excess or when it gets converted to glucose, or when consumed without carbs, the amino acids and so forth.. What i'm saying and in the context of this thread and Peat's endeavors to lower protein - of course protein isn't harmful to health, it's vital, but the poison is in the dose and the dose is what's important. Surely you're not denying that too much protein consumption is detrimental? The question then is, what is that dose? How much is too much? And is there solid research backing that up?

Before WW2 they were eating a lot of meat

This has been studied extensively, they were eating meat just in very small amounts historically. Ie a little pork here and there, shell fish and the like.

"Even the 95th percentile of protein intake did not approach the highest acceptable macronutrient distribution range of 35% for an age/sex group. The highest 95th percentile of protein intake was 20.8% of calories in men aged 51-70 y."

35% sounds like alot. I looked at the study and they aren't saying what they are basing this figure on - Then they mention 17-21% recommended in the food pyramid and that people should strive for that.. They seem to be making alot of assumptions about what protein amount should be consumed, and then stating people arent eating enough based on those assumptions.

 

[Ritchie]

There's truth to it. If you had read the links on the first page, it would direct you to:

​

⬑ Is there a maximal anabolic response to protein intake with a meal?​

⬑ The anabolic response to a meal containing different amounts of protein is not limited by the maximal stimulation of protein synthesis in healthy young adults​

↳ The Anabolic Response to Dietary Protein Is Not Limited by the Maximal Stimulation of Protein Synthesis in Healthy Older Adults: A Randomized Crossover Trial​

Yes, it gets wasteful once the basic needs are met and can be an additional 'burden' for the burdened. Someone may be prone to the elevation of homocysteine, sulfite, ammonia and regular episodes of glucose level drops, quickly leading to a situation where protein was seemingly consumed without sufficient crapohydrates.

- Repeated Measures of Blood and Breath Ammonia in Response to Control, Moderate and High Protein Dose in Healthy Men​

On ammonia production and disposal, I am aware of the 'Maximal Rate of Urea Synthesis' concept and that metabolic capacity can be high, but there's a cost to these processes. They depend on PLP and NAD+, which protein-rich foods may provide, but for a depleted person, vitamins use can be dispersed in repletion. The case here is unlike "vitamin" D, that we deal with minute amounts, we would have tens on grams to be metabolized in a certain time window.

- Effects of a high protein diet and liver disease in an in silico model of human ammonia metabolism​

​

"Amino acid catabolism first relies upon the transfer of the amino group by aminotransferases to a ketoacid, often to alpha-ketoglutarate to form glutamate, and then by the deamination of glutamate by glutamate dehydrogenase which produces ammonia (NH3)."​

​

- Amino Acid Metabolism | NYU School of Medicine​

Also, a disturbed gut will be deteriorated with too much protein (feeds pathogens, they thrive and return harmful metabolites). One of many examples that can be broughted up:

- Problems With Sulphur​

​

- Daily per capita protein supply | Our World in the Data​

An interesting aspect about longevity is that the person has to survive in the first place. There will be trade-offs with protein restriction, it's up to the person to decide if it's worth it, but the same goes for protein in abundance.

Awesome, thanks!! Very helpful, I'll have a look into all that

 

[NewACC]

Hello, @haidut , what do you think about androgens are opposite to spirituality? Is the spirituality "peaty"?

 

[Lejeboca]

This study calculates that the amount of protein requirements, in terms of nitrogen in/out balance* , is the same for younger and older adults (0.85 g/kg of weight).

Dietary protein requirements of younger and older adults - PubMed

These short-term nitrogen balance results suggest that the requirement for total dietary protein is not different for healthy older adults than for younger adults and that the allowance estimate does not differ statistically from the RDA.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hence, the elderly problems such as sarcopenia could be due to impaired digestion/kinetics of a protein and its quality/composition.

Aging, exercise, and muscle protein metabolism - PubMed

Aging is accompanied by a progressive loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength, leading to the loss of functional capacity and an increased risk of developing chronic metabolic disease. The age-related loss of skeletal muscle mass is attributed to a disruption in the regulation of skeletal...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Minced beef is more rapidly digested and absorbed than beef steak, resulting in greater postprandial protein retention in older men

ABSTRACT. Background: Older individuals generally experience a reduced food-chewing efficiency. As a consequence, food texture may represent an important factor

academic.oup.com

-----------------------------------------------------
* From Dietary protein requirements of younger and older adults - PubMed :

Spoiler: Nitrogen Balance Calculation Formula

 

[David PS]

@ecstatichamster
Adequate protein and sodium is crucial according to Dr. Peat to stay out of stress. Listen

View: https://youtu.be/foGr3zQM4lI?t=485

 

[Apple]

@ecstatichamster
Adequate protein and sodium is crucial according to Dr. Peat to stay out of stress. Listen

View: https://youtu.be/foGr3zQM4lI?t=485

I guess we can rephrase it . Stay out of stress or ... adequate protein and sodium is required.
Anyway , it was a recommendation for an average american .
In one of the broadcasts they talked about monks living to 150 yo just on a piece of bread and nothing else. Low stress...

 

[David PS]

I guess we can rephrase it . Stay out of stress or ... adequate protein and sodium is required.
Anyway , it was a recommendation for an average american .
In one of the broadcasts they talked about monks living to 150 yo just on a piece of bread and nothing else. Low stress...

The average american is stressed and the WEF plans to stress us more in the near future. It is best to use every technique to destress at your disposal. Salting your food is almost effortless.

 

[David PS]

Low Sodium Intake, Low Protein Intake, and Excess Mortality in an Older Dutch General Population Cohort: Findings in the Prospective Lifelines-MINUTHE Study

BACKGROUND: Several studies have found a U-shaped association between sodium intake and mortality. The increased mortality risk of low sodium intake has raised debates and hampers widespread acceptance of public health campaigns and dietary guidelines on reducing sodium intake. Whether the...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Dave Clark]

Bare with me on this, protein is not my best subject, but when we talk protein, are we talking amino acids as well as total protein? In other words, if you consume foods low in protein, but then take amino acids, maybe like BCAAs, etc., do you include those amino acids into your total protein number with the food, or are they just quantified separately? I don't know if I am asking this right. I am sure there is a simple answer to this {and I may already know it}, but right now I have it in my mind that they are just separate.