haidut

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A recent study posted on the forum claimed that low carb is better for weight loss than other diets.
Low Carb More Effective In Weight Loss Than High Carb?

But the key question which so far most dieting studies ignore is this. Is the diet actually improving health and increasing lifespan? Lower BMI is not always tied to good health. Unfortunately, getting people to lose weight at any cost (usually by chronic fasting) seems to be the primary goal of medicine. Very little to no consideration is given to the idea that maybe other factors are at play in determining the overall effects of diet on health and lifespan. For instance, the idea that it is probably endotoxin that is the primary cause of aging associated with diet, and reducing its levels may be the main benefits of dieting.
The Benefits Of Fasting Are Due To Lowering Endotoxin (LPS), Not Less Calories

As such, changing the macronutrients can provide the same benefit without making people starve themselves which damages immune function and destroys lean tissue and metabolism in the long run. It has been known for a long time that reducing fat and protein levels in the diet while consuming carbs liberally can keep weight stable or even reduce it despite massive increase in caloric intake. This is certainly a sign of lower endotoxin as it is the endotoxin that is the primary reason behind weight gain.
Drinking Coke Freely Quadruples Calorie Intake WITHOUT Weight Gain

Along those lines, below is yet another study which confirms that the benefits of caloric restriction probably have nothing to do with the lower caloric intake per se but with reduced burden of metabolic waste. The study found that reduced protein (and fat) but liberal carb intake provides the same health and longevity benefits as fasting. The study used casein as protein and starch as the source of carbs, but I think sucrose and ripe fruit (as per the Coke study above) could be even a better sources of carbs and reduce endotoxin even more. The fact that casein was used as protein source probably also contributed to the beneficial effects due to casein's anti-stress and anti-estrogenic effects. The amount of protein used in the diet was about 9%-10%. I think this level of protein may work well for people over 65 but younger people should probably shoot for no less than 15% protein in their diet as they can digest and assimilate the protein better while order people convert most of it to ammonia and/or feed the gut bacteria with the undigested remains.
So, no need for calorie counting or self-torture. Just drink orange juice liberally as your main source of calories :): And and lest I forget, OJ itself lower endotoxin in humans.
Orange Juice Neutralizes The Proinflammatory Effect Of A HFHC Meal And Prevents Endotoxin Increase

Now I understand why every kind that has tried it seems to lust after a meal of OJ+cheese, and refuses to touch the peanut butter sandwiches after that. Kids know their food.

Comparing the Effects of Low-Protein and High-Carbohydrate Diets and Caloric Restriction on Brain Aging in Mice. - PubMed - NCBI
Low-protein high-carb diet shows promise for healthy brain aging

"...Low-protein high-carbohydrate diets may be the key to longevity, and healthy brain ageing in particular, according to a new mice study from the University of Sydney. Published today in Cell Reports, the research from the University's Charles Perkins Centre shows improvements in overall health and brain health, as well as learning and memory in mice that were fed an unrestricted low protein high carbohydrate diet. "There are currently no effective pharmaceutical treatments for dementia - we can slow these diseases, but we can't stop them - so it's exciting that we are starting to identify diets that are impacting how the brain ages," said lead author and PhD candidate Devin Wahl. The research shows for the first time that unrestricted low-protein, high-carbohydrate diets have similar protective benefits for the brain as calorie restriction, which is well known for its longevity benefits although not sustainable in humans. "We have close to 100 years of quality research extolling the benefits of calorie restriction as the most powerful diet to improve brain health and delay the onset of neurodegenerative disease in rodents," said Mr Wahl. "However, the majority of people have a hard time restricting calories, especially in Western societies where food is so freely available. "It shows a lot of promise that we have been able to replicate the same kind of gene changes in the part of the brain responsible for memory that we also see when we severely restrict calories," said Mr Wahl."

"...For the current study, researchers fed the mice complex carbohydrates derived from starch, and casein protein which is found in cheese and milk. To assess the brain benefits of the diet the researchers focused on the hippocampus, the region of the brain responsible for learning and memory."
 
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Peat has stressed 80g to 100g of protein in order to help the liver work better. I wonder how much protein this low-protein diet would translate to, in human terms.
 

Fractality

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High carbohydrate intake spares protein catabolism which means higher protein intake is not necessary!
 

JustAGuy

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Just wanted to say that I tried drinking unlimited juices / super ripe fruit at 4000-4500 kcal and was gaining fat rapidly. I took some free EAA blend and 0 fats. So the idea of unlimited sugar not causing fat increase hasn’t been the case at all for me.
 

walker_in_aus

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But the key question which so far most dieting studies ignore is this. Is the diet actually improving health and increasing lifespan? Lower BMI is not always tied to good health. Unfortunately, getting people to lose weight at any cost (usually by chronic fasting) seems to be the primary goal of medicine.

And the primary goal of everyone! Drives me insane, studying nutrition the only questions people ask me is "any weight loss tips"? I don't even know many overweight people. I know MANY unhealthy people.

I had a great question the other day - "Any tips on ageing better?"
 

TripleOG

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The amount of protein used in the diet was about 9%-10%. I think this level of protein may work well for people over 65 but younger people should probably shoot for no less than 15% protein in their diet as they can digest and assimilate the protein better while order people convert most of it to ammonia and/or feed the gut bacteria with the undigested remains.

2000 calories => 75g protein
2500 calories => 94g protein
3000 calories => 112g protein
etc...

[insert "Ray Peat Right Again" smilie]
 

sweetpeat

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Interesting study. I've been tracking macros/micros consistently lately with cronometer and find that I naturally end up at around 15% protein, which is about 90 grams for me. You said the study also mentioned reduced fat. Curious as to what is meant by "reduced fat"?
 

Hugh Johnson

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Just wanted to say that I tried drinking unlimited juices / super ripe fruit at 4000-4500 kcal and was gaining fat rapidly. I took some free EAA blend and 0 fats. So the idea of unlimited sugar not causing fat increase hasn’t been the case at all for me.
I found I can no longer lose weight eating unlimited calories in sugar. The studies cited about DNL not happening with people were using small amounts of carbs below 500g. Once you are above 1000g body does seem to happily make fats.
 
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Just wanted to say that I tried drinking unlimited juices / super ripe fruit at 4000-4500 kcal and was gaining fat rapidly. I took some free EAA blend and 0 fats. So the idea of unlimited sugar not causing fat increase hasn’t been the case at all for me.

Well your metabolism can only increase so much. 4000+ KCal is a lean and active 250Lbs monster requirements.

As of myself 210 very lean and muscular and using nandrolone which definitely increases my appetite whilst increasing calcium, sodium and nitrogen retention - I’m embracing the 80/10/10 diet quite like those hardcore vegans. It’s mostly carbs carbs carbs and a steak.

On my way for more carbs
 
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Even a 70/15/15% diet... On a 3000kcal TDEE such a diet means 50g of fats (more than enough) 110g of proteins (quite decent) and 530g of carbs which sounds like instant diabetes to pretty much all the average ignorant Joe’s and Stacey’s and most of the medical community. However this is what got my HbA1c back under 5.5% while it was creeping over 6% over time and multiple diets. Cholesterol down to optimal levels. Aggressive hair growth. Gym PRs. No acne.

How many industrial crooks benefit from high protein high fat trash? Lots of them. Meanwhile basmati tubers and fruits are a dime a dozen
 

Cirion

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I found I can no longer lose weight eating unlimited calories in sugar. The studies cited about DNL not happening with people were using small amounts of carbs below 500g. Once you are above 1000g body does seem to happily make fats.

Well, we should be careful not to promote extremes. I don't believe in counting calories, or restricting fat, but obviously stuffing your face until you explode is probably not wise either. That said, I now believe you can and should eat at least enough to maintain a temperature of 98.6+F at all times, yes at night also. For myself, I still have to eat an obscene amount of food to progress towards this goal (finally I can get 98-98.2 fairly easily in the morning), the hope is that eventually I won't need to eat as much to pull this off.

btw on the topic of discussion Nate Hatch has basically a whole chapter in his book about this, and he coaches me and has suggested I try a day long protein fast while intaking B1,B7, and lithium aspartate (those help kill off the baddies). Just doing the protein fast alone only prevents replication but does not kill them.

And the primary goal of everyone! Drives me insane, studying nutrition the only questions people ask me is "any weight loss tips"? I don't even know many overweight people. I know MANY unhealthy people.

I had a great question the other day - "Any tips on ageing better?"

Deserves another re-quote. I often feel like 90% of topics focus on weight and not on health. I'm no longer interested in weight control. I'm interested in feeling good.
 
Last edited:

Whichway?

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Low carb, high, carb, low fat, high fat, paleo, zone, Mediterranean,....

There seems to be studies which can be found to support all of them.

I just wish we could sort it out....
 

Cirion

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Low carb, high, carb, low fat, high fat, paleo, zone, Mediterranean,....

There seems to be studies which can be found to support all of them.

I just wish we could sort it out....

This is why I reject all of the models and go my own way - high everything (high protein high carb high fat). It's basically what Nate Hatch recommends in his book, for the most part.

Low carb doesn't work for me, low protein doesn't work for me, low fat doesn't work for me. I need high everything. I am essentially doing the 33/33/33 split diet that RP has quoted as "potentially being the optimal macronutrient split" though probably more like 20/40/40.

Yeah it'll make you gain weight at first, but a calorie surplus is required for the body to heal, but I'm very slowly feeling better and getting higher and more consistent temps and pulses this way.

As long as you pick good foods (organic, good proteins (beef, dairy, cheese, gelatin), good fats (SFA's from butter, cocoa, dairy, beef etc...), and good carbs (unrefined sugars and soaked/sprouted grains (emphasis on sprouted) like Ezekiel bread, fruits, juices, select tubers like sweet potato, squash, cooked veggies like spinach (cooked not raw), pure ice cream with no additives, etc) all to taste/desire/cravings, then you'll facilitate healing. The reason why so many people are fat while eating generously is simply boiled down to two main reasons... one is poor food choices (PUFA's, toxic food additives) as well as leading a high stress lifestyle and/or recuperating from a large stressor in the past. It has nothing to do with the amount of calories. Let me say it again - it has nothing to do with the amount of calories.

Unfortunately, as Nate talks about in his book, we're taught that we need to "Punish" our bodies, "discipline" it by withholding food, abusing it with exercise, lack of sleep, etc. Our body doesn't get fat just to spite us. It gets fat to tell us something is wrong, and to help protect us. Unfortunately, most tend to mis-interpret getting fat as simply "eating too many calories" which is completely false, and too many people have been misled by this myself included. Getting fat occurs because of chronic stress, one of the primary causes of stress these days is chronic dieting / calorie deprivation. Trying to fight it by forcing a calorie deficit will always result in endocrine system distress, no exceptions. Every time weight loss is achieved via calorie deficit, the harder weight loss will be the next time around. I was able to lose weight via calorie deficit method until I hit 30, now any amount of calorie deficit sends me into a spiral of un-health. Nate hatch had the same experience in this regard as me, that's why his experiences resonate with me.

Many people like to quote Lyle Mcdonald or the guy Andy something or another from rippedbody.jp and say that all it takes is 2 weeks to restore hormone levels after a diet to claim that you can negate the drawbacks in hormones that a calorie deficit is proven to show. All these "experts" are just ruining peoples' health. BTW, it should be telling that the Andy guy from rippedbody.jp only accepts healthy clients, probably because he realizes the methods he pedals doesn't work for people who have chronically dieted for too long / older than 30 yrs old. Just about every overweight person has tried every calorie deficit "diet" under the sun without success, not for lack of effort. "Just eat less exercise more" is the most ridiculous notion. If that actually worked we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic. It takes more like 2 years to recuperate and not 2 weeks. And every time you diet via the calorie deficit method, this time period may increase by a longer duration of time and most people can't last 2 years because they gain all their weight back and more, only to diet again, and further damage their body (this is what I did until age 30).

Lasting weight loss can only occur in a protein rich, carb rich, fat rich, vitamin/mineral rich diet.

Sorry for the rant. But I'm on a crusade to prove the calorie deficit method as false so people stop destroying their health in the ironic goal of improving their health. I'm quite passionate about this now because calorie deficits have literally ruined a good portion of my life.
 
Last edited:

sugarbabe

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This is why I reject all of the models and go my own way - high everything (high protein high carb high fat). It's basically what Nate Hatch recommends in his book, for the most part.

Low carb doesn't work for me, low protein doesn't work for me, low fat doesn't work for me. I need high everything. I am essentially doing the 33/33/33 split diet that RP has quoted as "potentially being the optimal macronutrient split" though probably more like 20/40/40.

Yeah it'll make you gain weight at first, but a calorie surplus is required for the body to heal, but I'm very slowly feeling better and getting higher and more consistent temps and pulses this way.

As long as you pick good foods (organic, good proteins (beef, dairy, cheese, gelatin), good fats (SFA's from butter, cocoa, dairy, beef etc...), and good carbs (unrefined sugars and soaked/sprouted grains (emphasis on sprouted) like Ezekiel bread, fruits, juices, select tubers like sweet potato, squash, cooked veggies like spinach (cooked not raw), pure ice cream with no additives, etc) all to taste/desire/cravings, then you'll facilitate healing. The reason why so many people are fat while eating generously is simply boiled down to two main reasons... one is poor food choices (PUFA's, toxic food additives) as well as leading a high stress lifestyle and/or recuperating from a large stressor in the past. It has nothing to do with the amount of calories. Let me say it again - it has nothing to do with the amount of calories.

Unfortunately, as Nate talks about in his book, we're taught that we need to "Punish" our bodies, "discipline" it by withholding food, abusing it with exercise, lack of sleep, etc. Our body doesn't get fat just to spite us. It gets fat to tell us something is wrong, and to help protect us. Unfortunately, most tend to mis-interpret getting fat as simply "eating too many calories" which is completely false, and too many people have been misled by this myself included. Getting fat occurs because of chronic stress, one of the primary causes of stress these days is chronic dieting / calorie deprivation. Trying to fight it by forcing a calorie deficit will always result in endocrine system distress, no exceptions. Every time weight loss is achieved via calorie deficit, the harder weight loss will be the next time around. I was able to lose weight via calorie deficit method until I hit 30, now any amount of calorie deficit sends me into a spiral of un-health. Nate hatch had the same experience in this regard as me, that's why his experiences resonate with me.

Many people like to quote Lyle Mcdonald or the guy Andy something or another from rippedbody.jp and say that all it takes is 2 weeks to restore hormone levels after a diet to claim that you can negate the drawbacks in hormones that a calorie deficit is proven to show. All these "experts" are just ruining peoples' health. BTW, it should be telling that the Andy guy from rippedbody.jp only accepts healthy clients, probably because he realizes the methods he pedals doesn't work for people who have chronically dieted for too long / older than 30 yrs old. Just about every overweight person has tried every calorie deficit "diet" under the sun without success, not for lack of effort. "Just eat less exercise more" is the most ridiculous notion. If that actually worked we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic. It takes more like 2 years to recuperate and not 2 weeks. And every time you diet via the calorie deficit method, this time period may increase by a longer duration of time and most people can't last 2 years because they gain all their weight back and more, only to diet again, and further damage their body (this is what I did until age 30).

Lasting weight loss can only occur in a protein rich, carb rich, fat rich, vitamin/mineral rich diet.

Sorry for the rant. But I'm on a crusade to prove the calorie deficit method as false so people stop destroying their health in the ironic goal of improving their health. I'm quite passionate about this now because calorie deficits have literally ruined a good portion of my life.
Amen!! I have said similar things. You only hear the really-lean-never-been-obese people spouting the calories in calories out crap.
 

Fractality

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Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
772
This is why I reject all of the models and go my own way - high everything (high protein high carb high fat). It's basically what Nate Hatch recommends in his book, for the most part.

Low carb doesn't work for me, low protein doesn't work for me, low fat doesn't work for me. I need high everything. I am essentially doing the 33/33/33 split diet that RP has quoted as "potentially being the optimal macronutrient split" though probably more like 20/40/40.

Yeah it'll make you gain weight at first, but a calorie surplus is required for the body to heal, but I'm very slowly feeling better and getting higher and more consistent temps and pulses this way.

As long as you pick good foods (organic, good proteins (beef, dairy, cheese, gelatin), good fats (SFA's from butter, cocoa, dairy, beef etc...), and good carbs (unrefined sugars and soaked/sprouted grains (emphasis on sprouted) like Ezekiel bread, fruits, juices, select tubers like sweet potato, squash, cooked veggies like spinach (cooked not raw), pure ice cream with no additives, etc) all to taste/desire/cravings, then you'll facilitate healing. The reason why so many people are fat while eating generously is simply boiled down to two main reasons... one is poor food choices (PUFA's, toxic food additives) as well as leading a high stress lifestyle and/or recuperating from a large stressor in the past. It has nothing to do with the amount of calories. Let me say it again - it has nothing to do with the amount of calories.

Unfortunately, as Nate talks about in his book, we're taught that we need to "Punish" our bodies, "discipline" it by withholding food, abusing it with exercise, lack of sleep, etc. Our body doesn't get fat just to spite us. It gets fat to tell us something is wrong, and to help protect us. Unfortunately, most tend to mis-interpret getting fat as simply "eating too many calories" which is completely false, and too many people have been misled by this myself included. Getting fat occurs because of chronic stress, one of the primary causes of stress these days is chronic dieting / calorie deprivation. Trying to fight it by forcing a calorie deficit will always result in endocrine system distress, no exceptions. Every time weight loss is achieved via calorie deficit, the harder weight loss will be the next time around. I was able to lose weight via calorie deficit method until I hit 30, now any amount of calorie deficit sends me into a spiral of un-health. Nate hatch had the same experience in this regard as me, that's why his experiences resonate with me.

Many people like to quote Lyle Mcdonald or the guy Andy something or another from rippedbody.jp and say that all it takes is 2 weeks to restore hormone levels after a diet to claim that you can negate the drawbacks in hormones that a calorie deficit is proven to show. All these "experts" are just ruining peoples' health. BTW, it should be telling that the Andy guy from rippedbody.jp only accepts healthy clients, probably because he realizes the methods he pedals doesn't work for people who have chronically dieted for too long / older than 30 yrs old. Just about every overweight person has tried every calorie deficit "diet" under the sun without success, not for lack of effort. "Just eat less exercise more" is the most ridiculous notion. If that actually worked we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic. It takes more like 2 years to recuperate and not 2 weeks. And every time you diet via the calorie deficit method, this time period may increase by a longer duration of time and most people can't last 2 years because they gain all their weight back and more, only to diet again, and further damage their body (this is what I did until age 30).

Lasting weight loss can only occur in a protein rich, carb rich, fat rich, vitamin/mineral rich diet.

Sorry for the rant. But I'm on a crusade to prove the calorie deficit method as false so people stop destroying their health in the ironic goal of improving their health. I'm quite passionate about this now because calorie deficits have literally ruined a good portion of my life.

Sounds like you are espousing Ray's "eat to stoke metabolism" principle.
 

Cirion

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Amen!! I have said similar things. You only hear the really-lean-never-been-obese people spouting the calories in calories out crap.

raises hand I'm guilty of this when I was younger lol *sorry to all people I may have misled, especially on www.bodybuilding.com* lol (ugh!!! www.bodybuilding.com was my first foray into "health". That website is a cesspool of ignorance and roided out kids lol

Sounds like you are espousing Ray's "eat to stoke metabolism" principle.

Yes indeed!
 

JustAGuy

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Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
141
Amen!! I have said similar things. You only hear the really-lean-never-been-obese people spouting the calories in calories out crap.
I disagree, I know people who have been quite fat and are feeling good and are maintaining 10% bodyfat for years. The thing they all have in common is that they found a way of eating in balance between freedom of eating & healthy eating according to their body. They basically eat in a way that promotes the most value per calorie in reducing overall stress. Diet seems to be less of a factor than many other things. The only thing with a reasonable impact that I notice and see with these people is macronutrient composition according to appetite. These people usually eat quite a low amount of micros and don’t seem to have a problem with it.

I think it’s complete nonsense to say you can’t maintain 10% bodyfat and feel good after being fat before. There is just unadressed stressors that haven’t been dealt with (lack of low intensity movement/lack of sunlight/high paced stress job/rushing a lot) that cause stress which causes your body’s homeostasis to want to maintain a higher bodyfat percentage.

Every single long term lean person I know that feels good practices moderation in everything and never overexerts themself. Trying too hard is often a big mistake. I notice when I do any form of weight lifting that my appetite increases much more than the amount of calories burned. So I limit myself to some gentle body weight exercises spread throughout the day now and noticed huge benefits in energy and being able to eat less and feel good.

Also gentle walking in high volume outdoors burns way more calories than that it increases my appetite by personally. Provided the pace is slow enough (going too fast or beyond fatigue seems to have the opposite effect).
 

Waremu

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Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
I found I can no longer lose weight eating unlimited calories in sugar. The studies cited about DNL not happening with people were using small amounts of carbs below 500g. Once you are above 1000g body does seem to happily make fats.

I remember that study. It is true that fat gain did happen after the caloric threshold in carbs (500g or so), however, if you read the study you'll see that the amount of fat gained after reaching the threshold was very little. If I remember correctly, it was equivalent to a few grams of fat. So even above that threshold, the glucose to fat conversion is so inefficient that so little fat was converted, that it wasn't really enough to add noticeable fat in that study.

What I have noticed in my own experience is that if one slims down and gets their liver working well (and has been eating little PUFA for years so that tissue isn't PUFA saturated), it is very easy to stay slim on a very high carb diet only if fat is kept relatively low. However, for an already overweight person with a sluggish liver, it may not work as well. After I slimmed down and my liver health increased (I couldn't handle much caffeine, and now can have 400 mg caffeine in one sitting with no issues, so thats one good measurement of liver health according to much of the info shared here, especially by Haidut), I noticed that I never gained noticeable fat when I experimented with a surplus of calories. I got 'fuller' and gained some muscle, but it seemed I got warmer and metabolism increased to burn it off, as long as my fat was kept low (under 10-15%). So that could possibly be the other half of the puzzle.

People often say weight loss is as simple as calorie in vs calorie out because it's simple thermodynamics, but, if energy demands are increased via increased metabolism (and there is evidence and biochemistry which suggests sugar can increase the metabolic rate, in the right context), then the demand for more calories in increases, and this doesn't work against the laws of thermodynamics.
 

Runenight201

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Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Messages
1,477
Ive been eating primal af lately, with some rice, bread, corn tortillas, dairy, veggies, fruit, and sugar as needed.

My strength, confidence, and drive is way up. My bloat is decreasing, hair and skin quality has noticeably increased. There’s something to eating beef and eggs to one’s heart’s content that drives up temps, heart rate, muscle tone, etc...

I think where all the primal people go wrong is they lambast starches and sugars... I have found the primal ideology with added starches and sugars to be ******* amazing.
 

JustAGuy

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Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
141
I remember that study. It is true that fat gain did happen after the caloric threshold in carbs (500g or so), however, if you read the study you'll see that the amount of fat gained after reaching the threshold was very little. If I remember correctly, it was equivalent to a few grams of fat. So even above that threshold, the glucose to fat conversion is so inefficient that so little fat was converted, that it wasn't really enough to add noticeable fat in that study.

What I have noticed in my own experience is that if one slims down and gets their liver working well (and has been eating little PUFA for years so that tissue isn't PUFA saturated), it is very easy to stay slim on a very high carb diet only if fat is kept relatively low. However, for an already overweight person with a sluggish liver, it may not work as well. After I slimmed down and my liver health increased (I couldn't handle much caffeine, and now can have 400 mg caffeine in one sitting with no issues, so thats one good measurement of liver health according to much of the info shared here, especially by Haidut), I noticed that I never gained noticeable fat when I experimented with a surplus of calories. I got 'fuller' and gained some muscle, but it seemed I got warmer and metabolism increased to burn it off, as long as my fat was kept low (under 10-15%). So that could possibly be the other half of the puzzle.
This is glucose over feeding though, different from sucrose overfeeding. I have tried sugar overfeeding twice now and went from about 8% body fat to 9-10% body fat in 3 weeks time both times. I was very strict with eating 0 fat, under 10g basically. It was really noticeable since I was very lean and could see fat starting to form in places where I had 0 pinch able fat before (e.g. lower back went from like 1mm pinchable skin to like 5mm pinchable).

I am slimming down again to 8% now slowly and might try the glucose over feeding in a few months while avoiding fructose mostly.
 
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