Breathing Exercises Made My Hypothyroid

[TheSir]

Whay

Breathing exercises saved my life. Literally. But they made me cold. They made me very cold. My coach never thought anything of it because it’s very common. I have noticed it too as a coach myself. But I only put it together over the last few years. It’s forcing your body to raise CO2 and the way your body responds is to lower metabolic rate in order to do the breathing exercises more comfortably. That’s my conclusion. Nothing is 100% perfect and good. Everything has its trade offs. My lifestyle for the past many years has been incredible thanks to the CO2 raising that I do without thought — but it also has made me take thyroid these days.

What CP did this happen at?
How many hours were you practicing for per day?
For how long did you allow the problem to persist before taking thyroid?
Did your mental state worsen in parallel?
Have you accounted for unwittingly hitting soft-ceilings such as infections, parasites, toxins or deficiencies that could cause a sustained stress reaction?

Hope you don't mind, just trying to understand your case.

 

[Motorneuron]

I've heard it recommened to very sick people that instead of reducing breathing they should simply try to relax as deliberately and thoroughly as possible. This has the effect of reduced lactic acid output due to lessened sympathetic drive, as well as increased sugar metabolism due to increased parasympathetic drive, which will gently nudge the body towards better acid makeup without introducing additional acidity to the system.

For these people complete relaxation can be really difficult to achieve and their body may actively try to resist their attempt to let go of the muscular tension, but by persistently focusing on it they can reach up to 20s CP before they will even have to think about reducing their volume of breathing.

This kind of forceful relaxation is very therapeutic for anyone by the way. By pursuing it, you may quickly realize that you're never completely relaxed. Even when you think you are, you may still be able to push the relaxation a step or two deeper by trying harder.

A 20 minute session will calm the mind and increase feelings of joy and freshness in the body. Doing it the first thing in the morning is a great way to start the day. Habitually doing it as often as you remember should have a profound impact on your health. Soon enough it may become your baseline for daily living.

Forgive me but would not relaxing more lead to a lower respiratory rate as a result? I'm afraid I didn't understand. I am very interested in this because I find myself directly in the situation, sometimes I wonder if it is worth continuing with the exercises.

 

[TheSir]

Forgive me but would not relaxing more lead to a lower respiratory rate as a result? I'm afraid I didn't understand. I am very interested in this because I find myself directly in the situation, sometimes I wonder if it is worth continuing with the exercises.

Typically, but breathing rate is not that important. What matters is the acidity of your blood. If you're not consciously controlling your breathing your body will keep maintaining the acidity at the level it prefers through autonomous breathing. Whether this means more smaller breaths or fewer larger breaths is insignificant.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Whay
What CP did this happen at?
How many hours were you practicing for per day?
For how long did you allow the problem to persist before taking thyroid?
Did your mental state worsen in parallel?
Have you accounted for unwittingly hitting soft-ceilings such as infections, parasites, toxins or deficiencies that could cause a sustained stress reaction?

Hope you don't mind, just trying to understand your case.

It happened around 30.. I have never gotten over 35 CP or so. I don't think that is easy for anyone. I was practicing about 1 hour a day. I used the Frolov device in a pitcher, I used EPs and so forth.

Mentally I was fine, although sometimes mental state was bad for a few days as a cleansing reaction. I had a few issues with a root canal tooth, etc. but having coached a lot of people I find it's common to be very cold.

 

[TheSir]

It happened around 30.. I have never gotten over 35 CP or so. I don't think that is easy for anyone. I was practicing about 1 hour a day. I used the Frolov device in a pitcher, I used EPs and so forth.

Mentally I was fine, although sometimes mental state was bad for a few days as a cleansing reaction. I had a few issues with a root canal tooth, etc. but having coached a lot of people I find it's common to be very cold.

Gotcha. As you must know, there is lots of gunk that the body has to deal with between 30 and 40 CP. Like you said it's definitely not easy to push through this stage.

From HTMA I realized that the body can at times shift to extreme fast or slow oxidation for some time while it attempts to deal with whatever issues the increased adaptive energy from the practice will compel the body to deal with. The cellular mineral makeup and thus its needs and functions can change back and forth a lot during this process. Sometimes this change is due to the body addressing a dormant infection, at other times the body may be pulling off and eliminating toxins deep from the tissue, or regenerating a specific organ and so on.

So I think you have rightly inferred that your metabolic rate must have slowed down from practicing Buteyko. It may, however, be too early to conclude that it is a permanent and unavoidable trade-off of the practice, rather than a stage to push through (would we just keep getting colder and colder as we cross 60, 90 and 120 CP?). As long as root canals or other soft-ceilings are present, the metabolic slowdown can certainly appear permanent due to halted progress, so I completely understand how you may have been driven to your conclusion.

Does this make sense?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Gotcha. As you must know, there is lots of gunk that the body has to deal with between 30 and 40 CP. Like you said it's definitely not easy to push through this stage.

From HTMA I realized that the body can at times shift to extreme fast or slow oxidation for some time while it attempts to deal with whatever issues the increased adaptive energy from the practice will compel the body to deal with. The cellular mineral makeup and thus its needs and functions can change back and forth a lot during this process. Sometimes this change is due to the body addressing a dormant infection, at other times the body may be pulling off and eliminating toxins deep from the tissue, or regenerating a specific organ and so on.

So I think you have rightly inferred that your metabolic rate must have slowed down from practicing Buteyko. It may, however, be too early to conclude that it is a permanent and unavoidable trade-off of the practice, rather than a stage to push through (would we just keep getting colder and colder as we cross 60, 90 and 120 CP?). As long as root canals or other soft-ceilings are present, the metabolic slowdown can certainly appear permanent due to halted progress, so I completely understand how you may have been driven to your conclusion.

Does this make sense?

it's been 17 years. I do take a lot of thyroid to compensate. I have noticed that few people jump much over 32 - 37.

 

[Motorneuron]

Gotcha. As you must know, there is lots of gunk that the body has to deal with between 30 and 40 CP. Like you said it's definitely not easy to push through this stage.

From HTMA I realized that the body can at times shift to extreme fast or slow oxidation for some time while it attempts to deal with whatever issues the increased adaptive energy from the practice will compel the body to deal with. The cellular mineral makeup and thus its needs and functions can change back and forth a lot during this process. Sometimes this change is due to the body addressing a dormant infection, at other times the body may be pulling off and eliminating toxins deep from the tissue, or regenerating a specific organ and so on.

So I think you have rightly inferred that your metabolic rate must have slowed down from practicing Buteyko. It may, however, be too early to conclude that it is a permanent and unavoidable trade-off of the practice, rather than a stage to push through (would we just keep getting colder and colder as we cross 60, 90 and 120 CP?). As long as root canals or other soft-ceilings are present, the metabolic slowdown can certainly appear permanent due to halted progress, so I completely understand how you may have been driven to your conclusion.

Does this make sense?

I see myself agreeing with those who said that if your sugar metabolism is defective, the application of exercises aimed at suspending the breath with increased CO2 / acid PH could worsen the situation at least as far as metabolism and loss are concerned. of fat. (MY CASE with chronic disease and generalized elevated inflammation).

Of course, I struggle less with certain physical tasks and sleep better, but I cannot determine any other positive effects these practices have had.

It is a puzzle, but I would recommend these exercises to those who already have BASIC health, not to those who want to improve, this is my experience.

During the exercise I continue to focus on the exhalation to help lower the heart rate and I inhale a little in a not powerful way.

Sometimes burst breathing which consists of rapid inhalation from the nose and exhalation from the mouth, about a second and lasts about 10.

I will avoid the detention for a couple of weeks always trying to respect the big picture and not just the details.

 

[TheSir]

it's been 17 years. I do take a lot of thyroid to compensate. I have noticed that few people jump much over 32 - 37.

Yeah, I recall that just few % will reach 40 and beyond. Something as simple as staying up too late or sleeping in synthetic sheets can prevent it.

 

[yerrag]

I've heard it recommened to very sick people that instead of reducing breathing they should simply try to relax as deliberately and thoroughly as possible. This has the effect of reduced lactic acid output due to lessened sympathetic drive, as well as increased sugar metabolism due to increased parasympathetic drive, which will gently nudge the body towards better acid makeup without introducing additional acidity to the system.

For these people complete relaxation can be really difficult to achieve and their body may actively try to resist their attempt to let go of the muscular tension, but by persistently focusing on it they can reach up to 20s CP before they will even have to think about reducing their volume of breathing.

This kind of forceful relaxation is very therapeutic for anyone by the way. By pursuing it, you may quickly realize that you're never completely relaxed. Even when you think you are, you may still be able to push the relaxation a step or two deeper by trying harder.

A 20 minute session will calm the mind and increase feelings of joy and freshness in the body. Doing it the first thing in the morning is a great way to start the day. Habitually doing it as often as you remember should have a profound impact on your health. Soon enough it may become your baseline for daily living.

That might work, although I'm always skeptical of talk about the parasympathetic and sympathetic activity. It is very abstract and seems to me a convenient substitute for the inability to find root cause. It keeps people distracted enough to direct their troubleshooting efforts away from truly deductive reasoning.

It's like there is a freeway jam caused by multiple collisions, but the vehicles are not cleared. Instead happy gas is released so the drivers lose sense of time and urgency and begin singing kumbaya.

 

[yerrag]

1) cortisol is innately tied to one's ability to raise CP and will thus rise with hypoventilation. A person with cortisol deficiency is typically unable to progress with Buteyko

I'm not sure I follow. Isn't cortisol increased because of stress induced by having low blood sugar?

So if one has stable blood sugar and doesn't need to produce cortisol, he should be more likely to be able to raise his CP because he makes enough CO2. Having a good sugar metabolism begets high CO2 production as well as a stable blood sugar, and low cortisol.

But your scenario is applicable still. But only when one had poor blood sugar control that gets him into blood sugar lows and he still cannot raise cortisol to augment his sugar supply (by cortisol enabling the conversion of body protein into sugar).

 

[TheSir]

That might work, although I'm always skeptical of talk about the parasympathetic and sympathetic activity. It is very abstract and seems to me a convenient substitute for the inability to find root cause. It keeps people distracted enough to direct their troubleshooting efforts away from truly deductive reasoning.

It's like there is a freeway jam caused by multiple collisions, but the vehicles are not cleared. Instead happy gas is released so the drivers lose sense of time and urgency and begin singing kumbaya.

Eh, the two nervous modes are distinctly clear and their qualities empirically observable on a concrete level (heart rate, breathing, pupil dilation etc). What terms and concepts would you prefer to use? What would be more concrete or fundamental? Neurotransmitters? Hormones? The nervous system is the root that rules over both of these and you're not getting any less abstract by using them.

If your point is that one could get more precise than ascribing phenomena to parasympathetic/sympathetic modes, I agree. I don't have the ability to do so, and even if I did, I'm not sure if it would be particularly helpful for the scope/context of the present discussion.

As for cortisol people with severe adrenal insufficiency and low CP typically need supplemental cortisol until they get to 15-20. Otherwise they won't recover from the stress of the hypobreathing session.

 

[yerrag]

Eh, the two nervous modes are distinctly clear and their qualities empirically observable on a concrete level (heart rate, breathing, pupil dilation etc). What terms and concepts would you prefer to use? What would be more concrete or fundamental? Neurotransmitters? Hormones? The nervous system is the root that rules over both of these and you're not getting any less abstract by using them.

Your poor choice of wording ascribing the nervous system as the "root" further murkens its role. It isn't. It is an effector mechanism. It reacts and transmits and directs as a result of a stimulus.

If given an injection of morphine, I become numb. That is the root of why I am numb. I do not say it's because the parasympathetic system being unresponsive being the root. Neither would you because we both know the obvious cause. But it less obvious cause and effect situations, researchers merely point to the parasympathetic and sympathetic activity, and that would be the end of it.

I do not fancy being a patient given drugs that are mere 'happy gas.'

If your point is that one could get more precise than ascribing phenomena to parasympathetic/sympathetic modes, I agree. I don't have the ability to do so, and even if I did, I'm not sure if it would be particularly helpful for the scope/context of the present discussion.

That defeats the whole point of earnest scientific inquiry. But certainly, if one were to earn a Nobel Prize, one would have to be fully engaged on the abstract that numbs the senses so no one would question the validity of something no one understands.

You don't have to look far into trying to understand Heart Rate Variability. You can't. Yet, people buy expensive devices such as the Oura Ring just to measure that. It is not science. It is marketing. Even Ray Peat thinks of it as a fad. AFor good season.

As for cortisol people with severe adrenal insufficiency and low CP typically need supplemental cortisol until they get to 15-20. Otherwise they won't recover from the stress of the hypobreathing session.

Please explain then why cortisol is needed. I really don't follow.

Isn't cortisol a stress hormone? If so, it should follow that its production should be minimized. It is needed only to overcome internal stresses, isn't it?

Such as at night asleep when blood sugar could run low. Or when there is inflammation, where it relieves the inflammation. Or when there is infection, which is probably related to inflammation as well.

If you ascribe to adrenal insufficiency the cause of low cortisol, and that you need to take cortisol to increase CP, and if CP is increased as a direct consequence of increasing CO2, then it would be logical for me to say that cortisol increases CO2. If you agree with that, why would it do so ?

My only explanation is that you don't have stable blood sugar, and you are frequently low in blood sugar. Even one blip is enough to disrupt the flow of T3, and that disruption de-optimizes your sugar metabolism, and that leads to lower CO2 production and lower CP.

Whether or not you are low in cortisol, something isn't working when the body isn't able to summon supplemental sources of sugar fast enough when the blood sugar level is getting low. Adrenal insufficiency in producing cortisol is often the fall guy.

Let's say the adrenals are the culprit, but why did the adrenals become insufficient? Is it because it's exhausted from producing too much cortisol to produce supplemental sugar from body protein? Adrenals don't just become insufficient all by themselves.

 

[TheSir]

Your poor choice of wording ascribing the nervous system as the "root" further murkens its role. It isn't. It is an effector mechanism. It reacts and transmits and directs as a result of a stimulus

Again: in the context of breathing and its downstream effects in the body, what is more fundamental than the nervous system? It all begins in how the nervous system reacts to your conscious manipulation of breathing and relaxation. It seems that you are trying to deliver an argument of principle over pedantry that has minimal relevance to the subject.

That defeats the whole point of earnest scientific inquiry.

Consider that my intent here is not to conduct scientific inquiry, but to share what little I know to the hopeful benefit of others.

Isn't cortisol a stress hormone? If so, it should follow that its production should be minimized. It is needed only to overcome internal stresses, isn't it?

Yes. A hypoventilation session appears to be such an internal stressor. An excessively fatigued body may not be able to overcome it without supplementation to a degree that would allow CP to raise. Think of how someone with a severe CFS can't overcome the stress of leaving the bed and going to the bathroom without crashing further, whereas someone with a healthy constitution would only benefit from the physical activity. If you are familiar with the pathophysiology of CFS, it should be easy to understand the issue I'm pointing at.

My only explanation is that you don't have stable blood sugar, and you are frequently low in blood sugar. Even one blip is enough to disrupt the flow of T3, and that disruption de-optimizes your sugar metabolism, and that leads to lower CO2 production and lower CP.

Why would you concern yourself with root causes while simultaneously settling for explanations that are this far removed from any conceivable root? Blood sugar stability is hyperbolically the downstream of downstreams of all metabolism.

Let's say the adrenals are the culprit, but why did the adrenals become insufficient?

Friend, there are a million possible reasons for that. It doesn't matter unless we are talking of a particular case.

 

[ecstatichamster]

My thoughts are that the body attempts to minimize oxygen consumption when you are doing the pauses and other Buteyko exercises. This is a strategy that lowers metabolic rate as an adaptation. And that’s what I think happened to me.

 

[Motorneuron]

@TheSir What are you referring to regarding CFS? do you have direct experience? what do you know about the high coagulation theory?

 

[Motorneuron]

My thoughts are that the body attempts to minimize oxygen consumption when you are doing the pauses and other Buteyko exercises. This is a strategy that lowers metabolic rate as an adaptation. And that’s what I think happened to me.

Only non-documentable hypotheses remain but they are of your own opinion and experience.

 

[TheSir]

My thoughts are that the body attempts to minimize oxygen consumption when you are doing the pauses and other Buteyko exercises. This is a strategy that lowers metabolic rate as an adaptation. And that’s what I think happened to me.

What would drive the body to minimize oxygen consumption in your view, considering that hypoventilation will lead to increased cellular oxygen content due to the Bohr effect?

@TheSir What are you referring to regarding CFS? do you have direct experience? what do you know about the high coagulation theory?

The defining symptom of CFS is post-exertional malaise, which emerges from inability of the body to clear out certain metabolites and toxins. The urine of a healthy person will contain certain wasteproducts soon after exertion, whereas in CFS the urine will contain none of these. Unable to flush themselves, their cells will remain at a state of exhaustion that is similar to the cells of a healthy person who has just run a marathon. Clotting could be the result of this, though I'm not very familiar with that subject.

 

[ecstatichamster]

What would drive the body to minimize oxygen consumption in your view, considering that hypoventilation will lead to increased cellular oxygen content due to the Bohr effect?

Because you are doing long pauses, or otherwise creating very high CO2, and one compensation is to lower metabolic rate.

 

[yerrag]

Again: in the context of breathing and its downstream effects in the body, what is more fundamental than the nervous system? It all begins in how the nervous system reacts to your conscious manipulation of breathing and relaxation. It seems that you are trying to deliver an argument of principle over pedantry that has minimal relevance to the subject.


Consider that my intent here is not to conduct scientific inquiry, but to share what little I know to the hopeful benefit of others.


Yes. A hypoventilation session appears to be such an internal stressor. An excessively fatigued body may not be able to overcome it without supplementation to a degree that would allow CP to raise. Think of how someone with a severe CFS can't overcome the stress of leaving the bed and going to the bathroom without crashing further, whereas someone with a healthy constitution would only benefit from the physical activity. If you are familiar with the pathophysiology of CFS, it should be easy to understand the issue I'm pointing at.


Why would you concern yourself with root causes while simultaneously settling for explanations that are this far removed from any conceivable root? Blood sugar stability is hyperbolically the downstream of downstreams of all metabolism.


Friend, there are a million possible reasons for that. It doesn't matter unless we are talking of a particular case.

We will just leave the subject with differing thoughts and mindsets and approaches. Be well.

 

[TheSir]

We will just leave the subject with differing thoughts and mindsets and approaches. Be well.

Good call and the same to you. I was already berating myself for unwittingly slipping into yet another internet argument. It happens so insidiously, doesn’t it?