Optimal Diet For Increasing Lifespan

Jennifer

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Since Ikaria is being discussed, I find this excerpt from the article "The Island Where People Forget To Die" to be very telling that beyond diet, there are other very crucial elements that need to be factored in when talking about longevity:

"Parikos was nursing a mug of coffee. Sunlight sifted in through the window shades; the waves of the nearby Aegean could be barely heard over the din of breakfast. “Do you know there’s no word in Greek for privacy?” she declared. “When everyone knows everyone else’s business, you get a feeling of connection and security. The lack of privacy is actually good, because it puts a check on people who don’t want to be caught or who do something to embarrass their family. If your kids misbehave, your neighbor has no problem disciplining them. There is less crime, not because of good policing, but because of the risk of shaming the family. You asked me about food, and yes, we do eat better here than in America. But it’s more about how we eat. Even if it’s your lunch break from work, you relax and enjoy your meal. You enjoy the company of whoever you are with. Food here is always enjoyed in combination with conversation.

In the United States, when it comes to improving health, people tend to focus on exercise and what we put into our mouths — organic foods, omega-3’s, micronutrients. We spend nearly $30 billion a year on vitamins and supplements alone. Yet in Ikaria and the other places like it, diet only partly explained higher life expectancy. Exercise — at least the way we think of it, as willful, dutiful, physical activity — played a small role at best.

Social structure might turn out to be more important. In Sardinia, a cultural attitude that celebrated the elderly kept them engaged in the community and in extended-family homes until they were in their 100s. Studies have linked early retirement among some workers in industrialized economies to reduced life expectancy. In Okinawa, there’s none of this artificial punctuation of life. Instead, the notion of ikigai — “the reason for which you wake up in the morning” — suffuses people’s entire adult lives. It gets centenarians out of bed and out of the easy chair to teach karate, or to guide the village spiritually, or to pass down traditions to children. The Nicoyans in Costa Rica use the term plan de vida to describe a lifelong sense of purpose. As Dr. Robert Butler, the first director of the National Institute on Aging, once told me, being able to define your life meaning adds to your life expectancy.

Ask the very old on Ikaria how they managed to live past 90, and they’ll usually talk about the clean air and the wine. Or, as one 101-year-old woman put it to me with a shrug, “We just forget to die.” The reality is they have no idea how they got to be so old. And neither do we. To answer that question would require carefully tracking the lifestyles of a study group and a control group for an entire human lifetime (and then some). We do know from reliable data that people on Ikaria are outliving those on surrounding islands (a control group, of sorts). Samos, for instance, is just eight miles away. People there with the same genetic background eat yogurt, drink wine, breathe the same air, fish from the same sea as their neighbors on Ikaria. But people on Samos tend to live no longer than average Greeks. This is what makes the Ikarian formula so tantalizing.

The big aha for me, having studied populations of the long-lived for nearly a decade, is how the factors that encourage longevity reinforce one another over the long term. For people to adopt a healthful lifestyle, I have become convinced, they need to live in an ecosystem, so to speak, that makes it possible. As soon as you take culture, belonging, purpose or religion out of the picture, the foundation for long healthy lives collapses. The power of such an environment lies in the mutually reinforcing relationships among lots of small nudges and default choices. There’s no silver bullet to keep death and the diseases of old age at bay. If there’s anything close to a secret, it’s silver buckshot."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magaz ... 3Dall&_r=0

I think most desire that sense of belonging and support, as well as giving support in return. I believe feeling isolated and unloved (by others AND yourself) will ruin even the most perfect diet. I know this thread is about the diet aspect of longevity, but I think it's important to not forget these other factors since they too play a role.
 

Amazoniac

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Forgot to add that correlation doesn't imply cause. But it's still relevant that these populations are concentrated near the Equator.

Also, adding to the discussion, they probably have low PUFA intake.
And yes, their meat consumption is low but compensated by milk (usually from Goats).

Agreed that longevity is polyfactorial and diet is a part of the equation. One of the most important.
 
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The average distance of those places from the equator is actually two-thousand miles, something like southern Texas. Of course I doubt we will find any centenarians at the poles though.
 
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Amazoniac said:
They are very cheerful and positive, it would be interesting to compare their gut microbiome with controls, like Jennifer mentioned..
It's hard to separate causality here. Peat's idea might be that people are cheerful and positive because they have minimized their intestinal inflammation. You feel better because you are better.

Buettner seems to be assuming the opposite, that they have minimized their intestinal inflammation or otherwise increased their longevity because they are cheerful and positive. That seems unlikely (to me) but in any case, it's easy to disprove. In theory, you could subject them to an endotoxic insult and monitor how cheerful and positive they are. But there's no need to do that experiment because you already know what the result would be.

Of course, the government would like you to believe that you could live longer if you could just be happy. In fact, what keeps you from living longer and being happy is the corporate degradation of the food supply, which the government fails to prevent, or worse, tacitly approves.
 
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visionofstrength said:
Amazoniac said:
They are very cheerful and positive, it would be interesting to compare their gut microbiome with controls, like Jennifer mentioned..
It's hard to separate causality here. Peat's idea might be that people are cheerful and positive because they have minimized their intestinal inflammation. You feel better because you are better.

Buettner seems to be assuming the opposite, that they have minimized their intestinal inflammation or otherwise increased their longevity because they are cheerful and positive. That seems unlikely (to me) but in any case, it's easy to disprove. In theory, you could subject them to an endotoxic insult and monitor how cheerful and positive they are. But there's no need to do that experiment because you already know what the result would be.

Of course, the government would like you to believe that you could live longer if you could just be happy. In fact, what keeps you from living longer and being happy is the corporate degradation of the food supply, which the government fails to prevent, or worse, tacitly approves.

I think Ray Peat's concept doesn't have chief causes and forced effects, it would probably be possible for someone to be happy and have bad gut and vice-versa if for some reason they had an abundance on one of those sides; basically however they are tightly bound in a many-input system, and on most levels gut health and happiness cannot be separated. After a while you can even stop seeing them as separate entities (for example the gut and its nerves are crucial for certain brain processes of learning). What is happiness, is it a drop of dopamine in your brain? No, as far as something falls under the definition of "your organism" then that something will take part in what you call a "happy state", and a healthy organism constantly works to enlarge that very definition of itself and by consequence its happiness "capacity" as well.
 
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Such_Saturation said:
I think Ray Peat's concept doesn't have chief causes and forced effects, it would probably be possible for someone to be happy and have bad gut and vice-versa if for some reason they had an abundance on one of those sides; basically however they are tightly bound in a many-input system, and on most levels gut health and happiness cannot be separated. After a while you can even stop seeing them as separate entities (for example the gut and its nerves are crucial for certain brain processes of learning). What is happiness, is it a drop of dopamine in your brain? No, as far as something falls under the definition of "your organism" then that something will take part in what you call a "happy state", and a healthy organism constantly works to enlarge that very definition of itself and by consequence its happiness "capacity" as well.
Thanks, S_S. I didn't mean to suggest that Buettner's study, or studies like it, which claim some sort of causality involving happiness, have any validity as to cause and effect whatsoever. I've never looked into it, and given my cynicism about the financial motives of the food suppliers funding these studies, I don't intend to. It troubles me, though, that these studies are reported to the public and even touted in media as if they had some validity, for the reasons I've already said in my post.

On a happier note, Peat's comment in email was that he wonders whether the high that some report when fasting is the result of endotoxins being reduced at least temporarily during the fast. Interesting!
 

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Hmm...so are you guys saying that people can't be happy and have gut issues at the same time or that one would need an abundance of happiness in order to be happy while having gut issues?
 
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Jennifer said:
Hmm...so are you guys saying that people can't be happy and have gut issues at the same time or that one would need an abundance of happiness in order to be happy while having gut issues?

I think other factors will have to put in twice the energy if you are not in an energized state. Energy expenditure for a productive cause or simple energy storage (aka expending it to build structure) is what allows you to overflow with a certain value, to print that sort of currency, and we could call the positive balance of that value "happiness". I'm sure you can be completely sick and wasted and still be happy but the energy source will be external and uncontrollable (your boss liked your joke) and you will essentially be an addict, or an empty node in the grid. This phenomenon has no small part in the breakdown of day to day morals that would otherwise enhance our collective energy flow. These are sacrificed for a small time reward just as with real drug addiction sufferers (I backstabbed my co-worker for that 200$ bonus; now I can buy that new TV).

If none of us can be entirely strangers to those unsustainable mechanisms, there must be a constant work towards realizing that our "conscious decisions" are actually warped by many energy balances. Then we can see how the "unconscious decisions" are also not that different and still fall under our responsibility. Ideally a certain complete honesty must flow between the thoughts you think you are controlling and the ones you think are beyond your grasp. Things would start working out after that.
 

Amazoniac

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What you described is exactly the state of those centenarians that, when asked how they lived so long, answer that they forgot to die; balance is followed by this sense of fulfillment. It seems so obvious for them that it's often a simple answer or even hard to put in words.
Bingeing, drug addiction, comedy, are ways that the organism reaches in attempt to stablish that balance.

Also, it's common to see people that heal their gut just by controlling their brain and vice versa.
 
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Such_Saturation said:
Jennifer said:
Hmm...so are you guys saying that people can't be happy and have gut issues at the same time or that one would need an abundance of happiness in order to be happy while having gut issues?

I think other factors will have to put in twice the energy if you are not in an energized state. Energy expenditure for a productive cause or simple energy storage (aka expending it to build structure) is what allows you to overflow with a certain value, to print that sort of currency, and we could call the positive balance of that value "happiness". I'm sure you can be completely sick and wasted and still be happy but the energy source will be external and uncontrollable (your boss liked your joke) and you will essentially be an addict, or an empty node in the grid. This phenomenon has no small part in the breakdown of day to day morals that would otherwise enhance our collective energy flow. These are sacrificed for a small time reward just as with real drug addiction sufferers (I backstabbed my co-worker for that 200$ bonus; now I can buy that new TV).

If none of us can be entirely strangers to those unsustainable mechanisms, there must be a constant work towards realizing that our "conscious decisions" are actually warped by many energy balances. Then we can see how the "unconscious decisions" are also not that different and still fall under our responsibility. Ideally a certain complete honesty must flow between the thoughts you think you are controlling and the ones you think are beyond your grasp. Things would start working out after that.
I'm only pillorying those fraudulent studies that claim you can overcome serious metabolic disorders with willpower alone. It think it's cruel to say or imply that metabolic disorders are somehow your own personal failure, as if you could somehow cure parapolegia if you just had a positive attitude. If cruelty were not enough, these studies are done for profit!

Leaving commercial fraud aside. I do feel that a collective consciousness of metabolic "fields" is imprinted on us by our families, friends and support networks -- yes, even those we chat with on this forum!. We can purposefully affect this imprint, and when we do, we pass this on as our collective legacy to others.

I would like to think we can do this, for example, by generating more CO2 through uncoupled respiration. Study healthy centenarians in any "blue zone" and you are likely to find that they generate far more CO2 than you would expect. I think the imprinting of family and friends upon centenarians throughout their lives has allowed them to enjoy the increased CO2 of uncoupled respiration, and hence, to enjoy life.

Do you enjoy life because you generate more CO2, or do you generate more CO2 because you enjoy life? Does it matter?

Just don't let anyone tell you what you should do based on interviews with centenarians in "blue zones" -- if only you buy a book, or pay for a seminar!
 

Jennifer

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Jennifer said:
Hmm...so are you guys saying that people can't be happy and have gut issues at the same time or that one would need an abundance of happiness in order to be happy while having gut issues?

visionofstrength said:
I'm only pillorying those fraudulent studies that claim you can overcome serious metabolic disorders with willpower alone. It think it's cruel to say or imply that metabolic disorders are somehow your own personal failure, as if you could somehow cure parapolegia if you just had a positive attitude. If cruelty were not enough, these studies are done for profit!

Thank you for explaining what you meant, P. I completely agree with you and I myself have, at times, felt like a failure because willpower and all the positive thinking in the world hasn't healed me. Sure it's kept me alive where I'm certain I would of died had I not had such an internally optimistic and fighting spirit, but to me, surviving and thriving are worlds apart. I agree it would definitely be cruel to equate ill health to a lack of positivity.

And what a coincidence you use paraplegia as an example because I think about that every time I question the current movement we have going on in regards to manifesting our desires. I think to myself...would the biggest proponents of manifesting blame a paraplegic for being unable to regrow a limb? I've thought a lot about this with even my own injury.

visionofstrength said:
Leaving commercial fraud aside. I do feel that a collective consciousness of metabolic "fields" is imprinted on us by our families, friends and support networks -- yes, even those we chat with on this forum!. We can purposefully affect this imprint, and when we do, we pass this on as our collective legacy to others.

Yeah, I believe we pass on to each other an energy that becomes imprinted, affecting the whole or the "collective consciousness." For example, our habits and beliefs can be imprinted. I sort of liken it to how children are impressionable. We're all impressionable regardless of age. And I like your term "metabolic field." That's an interesting way to look at it.

visionofstrength said:
I would like to think we can do this, for example, by generating more CO2 through uncoupled respiration. Study healthy centenarians in any "blue zone" and you are likely to find that they generate far more CO2 than you would expect. I think the imprinting of family and friends upon centenarians throughout their lives has allowed them to enjoy the increased CO2 of uncoupled respiration, and hence, to enjoy life.

Do you enjoy life because you generate more CO2, or do you generate more CO2 because you enjoy life? Does it matter?

If enjoying life goes hand in hand with generating CO2, then no! I don't think it matters.

visionofstrength said:
Just don't let anyone tell you what you should do based on interviews with centenarians in "blue zones" -- if only you buy a book, or pay for a seminar!

Agreed! Wisely stated! :)

This makes me think of my road trip to New York for a faith healing at a group event. :roll:
 

Amazoniac

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What are some commonalities among long-lived populations, for those familiar with them?
Slight caloric restriction?
Moderate protein?
Move frequently at slow pace?
Simple lifestyle?
Respect for the Circadian rhythm?
A natural, non-industrialized diet?
Low environmental stressors?
 

Amazoniac

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The problem I see in analysing long-lived populations is that, if we use them as references, we will hardly reach much further. Perhaps approaching from a biochemical perspective is more effective..
On the other hand, analysing life as a synergetic system is complicated due to so many variables, dynamic variables just like stated by researchers like Szent-Györgyi. That is when considering Blue Zones become relevant.
 
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Amazoniac said:
The problem I see in analising long-lived populations is that, if we use them as references, we will hardly reach much further. Perhaps approaching from a biochemical perspective is more effective..

I think approaching culture with a great deal of humility would work. If we observe certain habits without the prejudice that they are "random" or "uncounscious", we can find that a lot of thinking is actually going on in the collective mind behind those traditions and life styles. It would follow that those choices necessarily have a well developed biochemical rationale as well which we can further.
 
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Perhaps the most important thing is that this egotistic factor or fear of death has never been the driving force in the past. Ideally, the life-time is strongly tied to the life-space and they both expand physiologically after the call of meaningful collective action, as opposed to a dry desire to beat death or claim more life for oneself. Coincidentally, egoism and lack of meaning would not benefit from longer existence, rather would suffer more and more from their own contradictions during the extra years.
 

kiran

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Such_Saturation said:
Amazoniac said:
The problem I see in analising long-lived populations is that, if we use them as references, we will hardly reach much further. Perhaps approaching from a biochemical perspective is more effective..

I think approaching culture with a great deal of humility would work. If we observe certain habits without the prejudice that they are "random" or "uncounscious", we can find that a lot of thinking is actually going on in the collective mind behind those traditions and life styles. It would follow that those choices necessarily have a well developed biochemical rationale as well which we can further.

Except we have to be careful, since we've already stepped outside the traditional context just by being here.
 
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kiran said:
Such_Saturation said:
Amazoniac said:
The problem I see in analising long-lived populations is that, if we use them as references, we will hardly reach much further. Perhaps approaching from a biochemical perspective is more effective..

I think approaching culture with a great deal of humility would work. If we observe certain habits without the prejudice that they are "random" or "uncounscious", we can find that a lot of thinking is actually going on in the collective mind behind those traditions and life styles. It would follow that those choices necessarily have a well developed biochemical rationale as well which we can further.

Except we have to be careful, since we've already stepped outside the traditional context just by being here.

Humanity's context is to continuously expand, is it not? I think it should step outside of itself every second.

Ordinary language, and culture, grow when insightful comparisons are generally adopted, extending the meaning of old categories.
 
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