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Dr. Peat’s protein recommendations seem lower especially for older people

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He is lowering his protein to 60g per day to minimize methionine, I believe he said. And on a recent Timpone interview he said older people need much less protein as their metabolic rate falls.
 

-Luke-

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I’m curious if there was an age range mentioned? Sorry, I haven’t listened yet.
No, he didn't mention any age range, just talked about "older people".
 

TheSir

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Protein is mostly needed for generative and regenerative processes. There is not much of either going on for older people, so the recommendation makes sense.
 

Amazoniac

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- Parsing the life-shortening effects of dietary protein: effects of individual amino acids ?

"What animals eat—and how much—strongly affects their health and longevity [1,2]. Modest calorie restriction is well known to increase lifespan across a range of organisms (review in [3]), but under ad libitum feeding conditions the balance of macronutrients is more important than calorie intake per se [4]. Notably, the ratio of protein to carbohydrate strongly affects longevity and measures of late life health. Diets containing a high protein-to-carbohydrate ratio reduce lifespan in a diversity of organisms [2,5–7], suggesting that conserved mechanisms underlie this sensitivity to high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets."

"It remains unclear how high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets shorten lifespan. One hypothesis relates to protein digestion, which is energetically costly [8,9] and produces potentially toxic nitrogen waste products [10]. Another possibility is that absorbed amino acids stimulate signalling pathways that regulate lifespan, such as the canonical target of rapamycin (TOR) pathway [11–13]. A trade-off between longevity and reproduction complicates attempts to understand the effect of high-protein diets on lifespan; while decreasing longevity, high-protein diets improve the reproductive output of individuals [5,7,14,15]."

"After finding that free amino acids were more toxic than whole proteins, we investigated the individual roles of each of them. Ants lived the longest in the ‘no AA’ diet (P:C ratio ≈ 1:6, [P + C] = 0.02 g/g), indicating little need for amino acids; and, as expected, ‘food deprivation’ and 5:1 PAA:C dramatically shortened ant survival (figure 6). Most of the single amino acid diets shortened lifespan with respect to ‘no AA’ diet, except glutamate, tyrosine and tryptophan (figure 6; electronic supplementary material, table S18). Among those that shortened lifespan, four were especially harmful: phenylalanine, serine, threonine and methionine (figure 6). Methionine shortened lifespan by as much as the 5:1 PAA:C and ‘food deprivation’ diets (p=0.597 and p=0.115; electronic supplementary material, table S19–S20). The differences in concentration between amino acids do not explain the differences in amino acid toxicity (p=0.440; electronic supplementary material, table S21). In the single amino acid, the total amino acid concentration is much lower than that of the 5:1 PAA:C diet (on average, 1/20), because we added only one amino acid instead of 20. Accordingly, the PAA:C ratios were much lower than 5:1 (approx. between 1:6 and 2:3). It is remarkable that such low concentrations of a single amino acid can have such a dramatic effect."

1650712463695.png

- The regulation of healthspan and lifespan by dietary amino acids
 

haidut

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He is lowering his protein to 60g per day to minimize methionine, I believe he said. And on a recent Timpone interview he said older people need much less protein as their metabolic rate falls.

In a person where the ratio of anti-catabolic to catabolic steroids is low (and it does get progressively lower with age) protein beyond a certain dose can actually be harmful as a lot (most, maybe?) will be oxidized for energy (instead of being used for tissue building/repair) and thus generate a lot of ammonia. Even in young people it has been shown that 30g of protein per meal is the maximum amount that will be used towards protein synthesis. The rest will be oxidized for energy and thus potentially cause problems. Since the optimal daily protein intake derived by numerous studies seems to be ~1g/kg of lean body mass (muscles) then in an older person I can see how the optimal daily protein intake would be in the 40g-60g range - i.e. those old people do not have much lean muscle mass left.
Now, if an older person is using AAS and changes the anti-catabolic/catabolic ratio back intot he favorable range seen in young people then the protein requirements for that old person increase again to youthful levels. Plenty of studies with older people taking testosterone, oxandrolone, etc and starting to eat like ravenous beasts again. Even 90-year olds can apparently get their "anabolism" restored and fall back into youthful eating patterns:):
 

Cloudhands

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In a person where the ratio of anti-catabolic to catabolic steroids is low (and it does get progressively lower with age) protein beyond a certain dose can actually be harmful as a lot (most, maybe?) will be oxidized for energy (instead of being used for tissue building/repair) and thus generate a lot of ammonia. Even in young people it has been shown that 30g of protein per meal is the maximum amount that will be used towards protein synthesis. The rest will be oxidized for energy and thus potentially cause problems. Since the optimal daily protein intake derived by numerous studies seems to be ~1g/kg of lean body mass (muscles) then in an older person I can see how the optimal daily protein intake would be in the 40g-60g range - i.e. those old people do not have much lean muscle mass left.
Now, if an older person is using AAS and changes the anti-catabolic/catabolic ratio back intot he favorable range seen in young people then the protein requirements for that old person increase again to youthful levels. Plenty of studies with older people taking testosterone, oxandrolone, etc and starting to eat like ravenous beasts again. Even 90-year olds can apparently get their "anabolism" restored and fall back into youthful eating patterns:):
here peat sends a different message from what youre stating, saying that the less stressful a person is, the less protein they need
 

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CastorTroy

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In a person where the ratio of anti-catabolic to catabolic steroids is low (and it does get progressively lower with age) protein beyond a certain dose can actually be harmful as a lot (most, maybe?) will be oxidized for energy (instead of being used for tissue building/repair) and thus generate a lot of ammonia. Even in young people it has been shown that 30g of protein per meal is the maximum amount that will be used towards protein synthesis. The rest will be oxidized for energy and thus potentially cause problems. Since the optimal daily protein intake derived by numerous studies seems to be ~1g/kg of lean body mass (muscles) then in an older person I can see how the optimal daily protein intake would be in the 40g-60g range - i.e. those old people do not have much lean muscle mass left.
Now, if an older person is using AAS and changes the anti-catabolic/catabolic ratio back intot he favorable range seen in young people then the protein requirements for that old person increase again to youthful levels. Plenty of studies with older people taking testosterone, oxandrolone, etc and starting to eat like ravenous beasts again. Even 90-year olds can apparently get their "anabolism" restored and fall back into youthful eating patterns:):
The ~1g/kg or 30gr protein per meal you point out is the amount suggested for older people with lower anabolic/catabolic steroids ratio? Up to what increase are you thinking for a younger 20s with higher ratio of the previously steroids ratio? 1.5g/kg lean body mass?

I think there are more factors that the anabolic/catabolic ratio. Like the routine or lifestyle of the individual. I wouldn't put the same optimal protein intake for a 25year old whether he does heavy resistance training or sits around all day reading books or playing videogames.
 
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CastorTroy

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here peat sends a different message from what youre stating, saying that the less stressful a person is, the less protein they need
That sentence is lacking context and/or ambiguous. Resistance training is a stressor that will demand more protein to muscle repair/building. But this process will also be modulated by that anabolic/catabolic hormones ratio as Haidut suggests.

As for raised catecholamines kind of stress, I don't think protein is the key nutrient to increase, but carbohydrates.
 

incrp

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Humans like all other species when fed ad libum seem to target protein at around 12-15% and eat until they reach this figure. Species eating above this figure live shorter lives but produce more offspring and below, fewer offspring but live longer.There is a book by Prof David Raubenheimer and Prof Stephen J. Simpson called Eat like the Animals worth a read Book | Eat Like The Animals Also Prof Stuart Phillips, PhD has some interesting videos on protein
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_MXKahAtAo
 

Cloudhands

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That sentence is lacking context and/or ambiguous. Resistance training is a stressor that will demand more protein to muscle repair/building. But this process will also be modulated by that anabolic/catabolic hormones ratio as Haidut suggests.

As for raised catecholamines kind of stress, I don't think protein is the key nutrient to increase, but carbohydrates.
Exercise can be modulated to be more or less stressful, and outside of exercise life can be modulated to be more or less stressful, effecting catabolic horomones. Dr Peat is simply implying the less stressful your life is, and the higher your metabolic rate is, the less protein youll need overall. He isnt suggesting exercise doesnt warrant more protein. His response isnt ambiguous or lacking context.
 

haidut

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The ~1g/kg or 30gr protein per meal you point out is the amount suggested for older people with lower anabolic/catabolic steroids ratio? Up to what increase are you thinking for a younger 20s with higher ratio of the previously steroids ratio? 1.5g/kg lean body mass?

I think there are more factors that the anabolic/catabolic ratio. Like the routine or lifestyle of the individual. I wouldn't put the same optimal protein intake for a 25year old whether he does heavy resistance training or sits around all day reading books or playing videogames.

The dose for a younger person would still be 1g/kg of lean muscle mass. It's just that since younger people have more such mass than older people the total daily protein intake for young(er) would be higher. Or at least the young ones can get away with eating more total protein daily before protein become a toxin due to it not being properly assimilated and being oxidized as fuel instead.
 

haidut

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saying that the less stressful a person is, the less protein they need

Then it makes no sense for older people to need less protein as he said since their life is quite stressful and/or their metabolic rate is anything but high. See studies below on elderly people being given AAS and getting increased protein synthesis. In general, anything that increases (muscle) protein synthesis would increase dietary protein need (and hopefully intake, to meed that need), or at least allow more dietary protein to be properly used instead of wasted.
"...Instead, it appears that the muscles of the elderly are resistant to normally robust anabolic stimuli such as amino acids and resistance exercise. Ageing muscle is less sensitive to lower doses of amino acids than the young and may require higher quantities of protein to acutely stimulate equivalent muscle protein synthesis above rest and accrue muscle proteins. With regard to dietary protein recommendations, emerging evidence suggests that the elderly may need to distribute protein intake evenly throughout the day, so as to promote an optimal per meal stimulation of MPS. The branched-chain amino acid leucine is thought to play a central role in mediating mRNA translation for MPS, and the elderly should ensure sufficient leucine is provided with dietary protein intake. With regards to physical activity, lower, than previously realized, intensity high-volume resistance exercise can stimulate a robust muscle protein synthetic response similar to traditional high-intensity low volume training, which may be beneficial for older adults. Resistance exercise combined with amino acid ingestion elicits the greatest anabolic response and may assist elderly in producing a 'youthful' muscle protein synthetic response provided sufficient protein is ingested following exercise."

"...The preponderance of data indicate that while consumption of higher protein doses (> 20 g) results in greater AA oxidation, this is not the fate for all the additional ingested AAs as some are utilized for tissue-building purposes. Based on the current evidence, we conclude that to maximize anabolism one should consume protein at a target intake of 0.4 g/kg/meal across a minimum of four meals in order to reach a minimum of 1.6 g/kg/day. Using the upper daily intake of 2.2 g/kg/day reported in the literature spread out over the same four meals would necessitate a maximum of 0.55 g/kg/meal."

My response is not necessarily contrarian to Peat's. The studies above are in regards to maximizing healthy anabolism and lean protein mass, which an elderly person may or may not want to do. As long as the elderly person consumes the minimum amount of protein needed specifically by his/her body for maintaining positive nitrogen balance then their health probably won't suffer. Also, as the last study above mentions, it is also important to spread the protein intake evenly to as many meals as needed so that the protein dose per meal does not exceed 30g. I do agree with Peat completely that blindly throwing more protein at the elderly, as many doctors do, may cause more harm than good (e.g. higher ammonia) even though it may result in higher overall anabolism than a lower protein diet.

@CastorTroy
 
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Cloudhands

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Then it makes no sense for older people to need less protein as he said since their life is quite stressful and/or their metabolic rate is anything but high. See studies below on elderly people being given AAS and getting increased protein synthesis. In general, anything that increases (muscle) protein synthesis would increase dietary protein need (and hopefully intake, to meed that need), or at least allow more dietary protein to be properly used instead of wasted.
"...Instead, it appears that the muscles of the elderly are resistant to normally robust anabolic stimuli such as amino acids and resistance exercise. Ageing muscle is less sensitive to lower doses of amino acids than the young and may require higher quantities of protein to acutely stimulate equivalent muscle protein synthesis above rest and accrue muscle proteins. With regard to dietary protein recommendations, emerging evidence suggests that the elderly may need to distribute protein intake evenly throughout the day, so as to promote an optimal per meal stimulation of MPS. The branched-chain amino acid leucine is thought to play a central role in mediating mRNA translation for MPS, and the elderly should ensure sufficient leucine is provided with dietary protein intake. With regards to physical activity, lower, than previously realized, intensity high-volume resistance exercise can stimulate a robust muscle protein synthetic response similar to traditional high-intensity low volume training, which may be beneficial for older adults. Resistance exercise combined with amino acid ingestion elicits the greatest anabolic response and may assist elderly in producing a 'youthful' muscle protein synthetic response provided sufficient protein is ingested following exercise."

"...The preponderance of data indicate that while consumption of higher protein doses (> 20 g) results in greater AA oxidation, this is not the fate for all the additional ingested AAs as some are utilized for tissue-building purposes. Based on the current evidence, we conclude that to maximize anabolism one should consume protein at a target intake of 0.4 g/kg/meal across a minimum of four meals in order to reach a minimum of 1.6 g/kg/day. Using the upper daily intake of 2.2 g/kg/day reported in the literature spread out over the same four meals would necessitate a maximum of 0.55 g/kg/meal."

My response is not necessarily contrarian to Peat's. The studies above are in regards to maximizing healthy anabolism and lean protein mass, which an elderly person may or may not want to do. As long as the elderly person consumes the minimum amount of protein needed specifically by his/her body for maintaining positive nitrogen balance then their health probably won't suffer. Also, as the last study above mentions, it is also important to spread the protein intake evenly to as many meals as needed so that the protein dose per meal does not exceed 30g. I do agree with Peat completely that blindly throwing more protein at the elderly, as many doctors do, may cause more harm than good (e.g. higher ammonia) even though it may result in higher overall anabolism than a lower protein diet.
I misinterpreted your message to mean "higher metabolism requires more protein" rather than "higher metabolism can utilize more protein". I wonder if theres a commercial device similiar to Lumen that could measure protein being used for fuel, that way we wouldnt have to play a guessing game with ourselves
 

Nomane Euger

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I misinterpreted your message to mean "higher metabolism requires more protein" rather than "higher metabolism can utilize more protein". I wonder if theres a commercial device similiar to Lumen that could measure protein being used for fuel, that way we wouldnt have to play a guessing game with ourselves
hi,dont you think appetite can be accurate enough for such thing?
 

Cloudhands

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hi,dont you think appetite can be accurate enough for such thing?
maybe. I know sometimes i crave milk for the fat or just cause im thirsty, and other times i crave meat for salt, and even then how much should i be eating? Obviously its not something thats of necessity, and cravings probably are the best bet, i just think it would be interesting to see with myself. I also think that eating different proteins with different amino acid profiles effects different people differently. I think that collagen has protein sparing effects, necessitating less complete protein
 

Beastmode

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All my family members who lived into their mid 90's and 100+ all ate smaller amounts of protein as they aged. The thing that everyone one of them did, that I think is not considered enough in the elderly living long, is they ALL ate plenty of food throughout the day and drank loads of coffee with their meals. They ate a lot of carbs and fat into their final years.

Sounds like Peat is listening to his body. I wonder how much his environment plays a role into this compared to if he was living a warmer climate year around.
 

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