Low-protein High-carb Diet Has The Same Benefits As Caloric Restriction

[JustAGuy]

I am simply stating what the evidence I have found seems to suggest. And my experience agrees with it as well. My experience simply doesn't match up with yours.

The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that you were simply eating way above your caloric needs in order to gain that amount of pure fat in a few weeks. You probably have a sluggish liver as well.

I doubt there is anything wrong with my liver since I felt completely fine. Fruit didn’t satiate me at all though. Yes I was eating above my needs, but you said “2-3%” ends up as fat. Well with my experiment it was more like 100% of the excess ends up as fat. Similarly there are tons of people who try unlimited fruitarian eating methods who actually end up gaining weight quickly, so no matter what your papers say in practice it’s just not the case of only 2-3% being turned into fat. Why don’t you just eat 6000 kcal worth of fruit with some protein daily to get at peak health?

 

[JustAGuy]

Your n=1 overfeeding experiment isn’t invalidating the scientific statements above... your tdee is probably around 3000 and you had an excess of 30,000kcal over 3 weeks.

Plus fruit juices are absolutely not physiological. Amino acids spike insulin. Good luck trying to overeat on real whole fruit and whole animal foods

I’d say 10-20% of my calories were juice, I ate mostly massive 10 lbs watermelons and huge papayas. Also as said above many do get fat eating a fruitarian diet (those who just gorge to appetite). Losing weight on a fruitarian diet is easy because the hunger is not a hunger that hinders performance, you still have energy on that diet you’re just hungry. I just wanted to test if all those theories about fructose not going to fat were true and it totally wasn’t in my case, nor in the case of many others you can read online. Would’ve been easy if it was because I don’t have a problem with eating 0 fat, so I could’ve just eaten 5000 kcal of sugar daily if this worked but it didn’t.

I will test the overfeeding again in like 2 months eating only glucose this time around.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I see what you're saying but you always should prioritize foods that satiate you. Fruits have been modified and cross bred extensively. So I can get that guys who eat tons of fruit end up getting fat, but this is mostly going to come from the glucose that they pack. Fructose just doesn't convert to fat as per the isotope study. This is where the "2-3%" figure comes from by the way. From fructose. You got fat because of a caloric surplus achieved from eating large amounts of fruit that are loaded with glucose.

Regarding satiation, I think that a way of eating inspired by the Warrior Diet is going to feel satisfying. Snack on fruits, eggs, nuts, seeds through the day. Eat a large protein (and fat) meal at night. Thrive.

I will test the overfeeding again in like 2 months eating only glucose this time around.

I don't think that's wise at all...

 

[JustAGuy]

I see what you're saying but you always should prioritize foods that satiate you. Fruits have been modified and cross bred extensively. So I can get that guys who eat tons of fruit end up getting fat, but this is mostly going to come from the glucose that they pack. Fructose just doesn't convert to fat as per the isotope study. This is where the "2-3%" figure comes from by the way. From fructose. You got fat because of a caloric surplus achieved from eating large amounts of fruit that are loaded with glucose.

Regarding satiation, I think that a way of eating inspired by the Warrior Diet is going to feel satisfying. Snack on fruits, eggs, nuts, seeds through the day. Eat a large protein (and fat) meal at night. Thrive.



I don't think that's wise at all...

I was under the impression that glucose has a harder time being converted to fat than fructose ?
Also I don’t see how fructose, which is converted for 50% to glucose as you stated before, wouldn’t be turned into fat or why it even matters, since you can’t have a fructose only diet.

I am just saying that some people here claim you can eat tons of sugar from like cola and not have it convert to fat, which simply isn’t true as I have tested on myself and so many people report on other forums.

 

[Cirion]

Honestly, I feel like fructose should be balanced with glucose on approximately a 1:1 ratio. I have seen this idea verified in many places and many people. And in my personal experience, fructose alone makes me feel off, or fructose in too high of a quantity. My feeling is that fructose is effective at stimulating the metabolic rate, but not really so great at "storing" energy (glycogen), at least for me anyway. As such I find it effective to eat an apple if I'm feeling sluggish, and in the morning it's great to get things started, kinda like caffeine, but I find my energy levels / mood / temps drop quickly if I don't supply a good amount of glucose with it. Fructose absolutely has a purpose in the diet, but I think many are guilty of going overboard with it (myself included lol). You can probably get by with mostly fruit and little to no starch, but only if most of the fruit you have is 1:1 fructose/glucose (so focusing more on things like oranges, bananas, grapes, apricots).

So disregarding the whole fructose or glucose stores fat better, I feel like energy is better spent (pun not really intended) focusing on how to balance them such you feel better in the long run.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Well in nature fructose doesn't exist without glucose, and the opposite is pretty rarely true. Until we came up with agriculture, that is.

I am just saying that some people here claim you can eat tons of sugar from like cola and not have it convert to fat, which simply isn’t true as I have tested on myself and so many people report on other forums.

Oh I have to say I'm baffled by such a belief. I'll have to read those isotope studies again and see what the methodology was. What I firmly believe is that we can't do anything that obviously exceeds our liver's capacity for glycogen uptake and use. So, tons of sugar, pop, modern GMO fruit etc.

 

[firebreather]

I remember reading a post from haidut a while back where he was talking about taking cypro. He said he ate high protein to combat cyrpo's weight gain side effects. I thought he said he did this because higher protein generally leads to a leaner body

 

[Wagner83]

There was a discussion on that topic here Do Carbohydrates Turn Into Fat?

 

[SB4]

Here's what I don't get, if denovo lipogenesis is a minor pathway in humans. If, say, a lean man eats his maintance calories (2500) in carbs with some protein and no fat, and eats them in 2 meals. Then after his first meal his BG would be elevated for around 3-4 hrs, enough such that all of his cells energy can be provided by glucose and some is used to top up liver glycogen. Then at 4 hrs his BG isn;t enough, he gets hungry again and has his second and last meal of the day.

Same thing, he is running entirely on sugar until 4 hrs later when his BG returns to baseline and the food has been fully absorbed. Now he is running on liver glycogen and stored fat for the next 16hrs.

If de novo lipogenesis is a minor pathway and the glucose converted to fat is negligeble then he will continue to drop weight until he dies, right? He can't use his liver to supply high BG during between meals and overnight as that is only 100g = 400kcals.

As far as I am aware this does not happen. So if you are eating a zero fat diet at maintanance calories you have to be converting lots of those carbs into fat for between meal and overnight fasting in order to maintain weight, right?

 

[Lokzo]

High carbohydrate intake spares protein catabolism which means higher protein intake is not necessary!

This is such a valuable point.

 

[haidut]

Curious if you meant those last two things as separate items or two sides of the same coin (bolded)? I believe I have pretty good transit time (about 18-24 hours, 2-3 x/day), but still experience irritated GI sometimes, is why I ask.

They usually go together. Anything that irritates the intestine usually causes it to swell and this immediately reduced bowel transit. I guess reduced bowel transit can be considered a sign/symptom of GI irritation.

 

[David PS]

Low-protein High-carb Diet Has The Same Benefits As Caloric Restriction

This thread inspired me to do a low protein fast. The questions I had were how low should I go when I reduce protein and for how long should I fast.

Valter Longo has had success using 5 day Fasting-Mimicking Diet (FMD) to “reset” metabolism and drive down biomarkers associated with poor metabolic health, inflammation, and cardiovascular health. FMD works as a series of monthly 5-day fasts and the markers drop in a stepwise fashion to healthier levels. He focused on low protein to suppress IGF-1 and low calories. Rhonda Patrick interviewed Valter Longo and the video and time-stamped show notes are at Dr. Valter Longo on Resetting Autoimmunity and Rejuvenating Systems with Prolonged Fasting & the FMD

Valter's patent US9386790 shows that he kept the protein level to less than 20 grams per day for most of the 5 day fast (see Table 3). The protein represented 9-10% of the calories and fat was 46% for the last 4 days of the fast (Table 2).

Valter has other patents directed to using the FMD diet for diabetes, cancer, . . .etc,

Here is link to Victor's papers at PubMed fasting-mimicking - PubMed - NCBI

I am on day 3 of my pseudo-fast and my macros and calorie count are closer to Walter Kempner's Rice Diet than to Valter Longo's FMD. See https://idmprogram.com/wp-content/uploads/Minger2.jpg

 

[stargazer1111]

This is why I reject all of the models and go my own way - high everything (high protein high carb high fat). It's basically what Nate Hatch recommends in his book, for the most part.

Low carb doesn't work for me, low protein doesn't work for me, low fat doesn't work for me. I need high everything. I am essentially doing the 33/33/33 split diet that RP has quoted as "potentially being the optimal macronutrient split" though probably more like 20/40/40.

Yeah it'll make you gain weight at first, but a calorie surplus is required for the body to heal, but I'm very slowly feeling better and getting higher and more consistent temps and pulses this way.

As long as you pick good foods (organic, good proteins (beef, dairy, cheese, gelatin), good fats (SFA's from butter, cocoa, dairy, beef etc...), and good carbs (unrefined sugars and soaked/sprouted grains (emphasis on sprouted) like Ezekiel bread, fruits, juices, select tubers like sweet potato, squash, cooked veggies like spinach (cooked not raw), pure ice cream with no additives, etc) all to taste/desire/cravings, then you'll facilitate healing. The reason why so many people are fat while eating generously is simply boiled down to two main reasons... one is poor food choices (PUFA's, toxic food additives) as well as leading a high stress lifestyle and/or recuperating from a large stressor in the past. It has nothing to do with the amount of calories. Let me say it again - it has nothing to do with the amount of calories.

Unfortunately, as Nate talks about in his book, we're taught that we need to "Punish" our bodies, "discipline" it by withholding food, abusing it with exercise, lack of sleep, etc. Our body doesn't get fat just to spite us. It gets fat to tell us something is wrong, and to help protect us. Unfortunately, most tend to mis-interpret getting fat as simply "eating too many calories" which is completely false, and too many people have been misled by this myself included. Getting fat occurs because of chronic stress, one of the primary causes of stress these days is chronic dieting / calorie deprivation. Trying to fight it by forcing a calorie deficit will always result in endocrine system distress, no exceptions. Every time weight loss is achieved via calorie deficit, the harder weight loss will be the next time around. I was able to lose weight via calorie deficit method until I hit 30, now any amount of calorie deficit sends me into a spiral of un-health. Nate hatch had the same experience in this regard as me, that's why his experiences resonate with me.

Many people like to quote Lyle Mcdonald or the guy Andy something or another from rippedbody.jp and say that all it takes is 2 weeks to restore hormone levels after a diet to claim that you can negate the drawbacks in hormones that a calorie deficit is proven to show. All these "experts" are just ruining peoples' health. BTW, it should be telling that the Andy guy from rippedbody.jp only accepts healthy clients, probably because he realizes the methods he pedals doesn't work for people who have chronically dieted for too long / older than 30 yrs old. Just about every overweight person has tried every calorie deficit "diet" under the sun without success, not for lack of effort. "Just eat less exercise more" is the most ridiculous notion. If that actually worked we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic. It takes more like 2 years to recuperate and not 2 weeks. And every time you diet via the calorie deficit method, this time period may increase by a longer duration of time and most people can't last 2 years because they gain all their weight back and more, only to diet again, and further damage their body (this is what I did until age 30).

Lasting weight loss can only occur in a protein rich, carb rich, fat rich, vitamin/mineral rich diet.

Sorry for the rant. But I'm on a crusade to prove the calorie deficit method as false so people stop destroying their health in the ironic goal of improving their health. I'm quite passionate about this now because calorie deficits have literally ruined a good portion of my life.

I think Nathan Hatch makes some outlandish claims.

He claims to have sat around all day at a computer while eating his high everything diet and all he did was gain muscle and lose fat. I call bull**** on this.

I tried doing things his way for about 6 months several years ago and all I did was get fat and my fasting blood sugar went into the pre-diabetic range. I think his claims are ridiculous.

My diet now is similar in some ways, but much lower in fat and protein. I'm at about 70 g of protein, as much sugar as I want, a little starch, and 80ish grams of fat. I have eaten this way for over a year now and have lost about 10 pounds rather than gaining weight and my metabolism has kicked it up a notch or two. I feel much younger and healthier than I have in 15 years. I did not feel this way at all trying Hatch's way of just eating everything ad libitum.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think Nathan Hatch makes some outlandish claims.

He claims to have sat around all day at a computer while eating his high everything diet and all he did was gain muscle and lose fat. I call bull**** on this.

I tried doing things his way for about 6 months several years ago and all I did was get fat and my fasting blood sugar went into the pre-diabetic range. I think his claims are ridiculous.

My diet now is similar in some ways, but much lower in fat and protein. I'm at about 70 g of protein, as much sugar as I want, a little starch, and 80ish grams of fat. I have eaten this way for over a year now and have lost about 10 pounds rather than gaining weight and my metabolism has kicked it up a notch or two. I feel much younger and healthier than I have in 15 years. I did not feel this way at all trying Hatch's way of just eating everything ad libitum.

Yeah, I tried higher fat a few days ago and didn't feel very good. I'm still eating more fat than I normally would, but not that much more now. My diet plan is similar to yours: high sugar, low starch. The only major difference is the protein intake: I'm always between 100 grams and 150 grams per day. High carb with lower fat( not no fat) seems to provide both a lot of CO2 and energy production without making me feel fat starved.

 

[tygertgr]

I've experimented over the last four months with one (roughly) 24 hour period a week (or so) of protein fasting. Maybe one day a week eat nothing but honey in coffee, white bread, juice, coke/pepsi, beer. Not potato or rice, though, due to high protein content. Sugar/carb calories ad libitum. I guess it would work with coconut oil and butter as well, but I figure why not try and burn off fat.

I'd recommend anyone try it on for size. Hey, if you don't feel good, stop and drink a glass of milk and eat an egg. Maybe just try 12 hour periods, or whatever. It's not difficult in the slightest. I never found straight up fasting difficult, either, and saw benefits from doing occasional stints of that, but I'd notice mental performance drag after eight hours, so can't recommend that as some sort of regular practice.

Why try this?

Personal: It healed two year old mild scars and pigment marks on my skin I had thought might be permanent. I also had some persistent scar tissue on an impact injury from a year ago that has mostly diminished. It clearly makes me feel better. If I find I'm getting a bit soft on the belly I lean out just by doing this maybe a day a week, without even having to think about anything else: very easy way to control leanness: Eat to appetite, but occasionally do a no protein day.

Theoretical: Certain intermittent fasting and protein cycling arguments and related animal experiments check out, IMHO. The adult mammal body is built to cyclically ramp up autophagy and various other catabolic processes and then later ramp up anabolic processes to rebuild. The cycle is a problem when over done and also a problem when underdone. Certain processes never kick in when you're constantly soaked in calories and protein and those processes do important things.

I think very careful use of pure short-term (24 hour) fasting probably still has its place, but it's so difficult to use correctly it's hard to suggest to anyone. I preemptively reject the argument that "it's just endotoxin". No, it's more complicated than that.

 

[accelerator]

Even a 70/15/15% diet... On a 3000kcal TDEE such a diet means 50g of fats (more than enough) 110g of proteins (quite decent) and 530g of carbs which sounds like instant diabetes to pretty much all the average ignorant Joe’s and Stacey’s and most of the medical community. However this is what got my HbA1c back under 5.5% while it was creeping over 6% over time and multiple diets. Cholesterol down to optimal levels. Aggressive hair growth. Gym PRs. No acne.

How many industrial crooks benefit from high protein high fat trash? Lots of them. Meanwhile basmati tubers and fruits are a dime a dozen

Very cool.....did your blood sugar initially go up when you first added more carbs/fruit?

 

[sunny]

.

 

[Neeters 27]

Just wanted to say that I tried drinking unlimited juices / super ripe fruit at 4000-4500 kcal and was gaining fat rapidly. I took some free EAA blend and 0 fats. So the idea of unlimited sugar not causing fat increase hasn’t been the case at all for me.

dont you think that amount of calories was excessive anyway? unless you are a pro athlete, and even then, they eat about 3000.

 

[Neeters 27]

I disagree, I know people who have been quite fat and are feeling good and are maintaining 10% bodyfat for years. The thing they all have in common is that they found a way of eating in balance between freedom of eating & healthy eating according to their body. They basically eat in a way that promotes the most value per calorie in reducing overall stress. Diet seems to be less of a factor than many other things. The only thing with a reasonable impact that I notice and see with these people is macronutrient composition according to appetite. These people usually eat quite a low amount of micros and don’t seem to have a problem with it.

I think it’s complete nonsense to say you can’t maintain 10% bodyfat and feel good after being fat before. There is just unadressed stressors that haven’t been dealt with (lack of low intensity movement/lack of sunlight/high paced stress job/rushing a lot) that cause stress which causes your body’s homeostasis to want to maintain a higher bodyfat percentage.

Every single long term lean person I know that feels good practices moderation in everything and never overexerts themself. Trying too hard is often a big mistake. I notice when I do any form of weight lifting that my appetite increases much more than the amount of calories burned. So I limit myself to some gentle body weight exercises spread throughout the day now and noticed huge benefits in energy and being able to eat less and feel good.

Also gentle walking in high volume outdoors burns way more calories than that it increases my appetite by personally. Provided the pace is slow enough (going too fast or beyond fatigue seems to have the opposite effect).

I agree with you 100%! my husband and I were killing ourselves at the gym daily, I was losing weight, but terribly hungry all the time and needed 2 naps a day and didnt sleep well. (I am on HRT and Thyroid and over 60, im 160 lbs but look small and wear size 8, I am strong build) husband is 38, weighs 135 lbs-141 lbs 5 ft 11, 10% bodyfat, we both eat 2x a day good meals, but he often eats sugary/chocolate snacks and drinks 2 liters of sugar sweetened ice tea a day!
When Covid happened, gym closed, we never went back. we dont really exercise anymore, we ride our bikes leisurely 3x or so a week, and walk here and there after dinner some days... He looks and weighs exactly the same...I gained 30 lbs about a year ago, had a serious back injury that had me immobile for a while. Well I didnt change my eating, havent started exercising, and I'm less stressed now pain is gone, losing a lbs a week without changing anything...I surely dont miss being sore all day after big weight workouts and killing myself with cardio doing Spin class! exercise wears you down and makes you eat too much!

 

[aliml]

"The optimum protein to carbohydrate ratio for lifespan across the different species is consistently ∼1:10 or less with ∼10% or a little less of total calories coming from protein."

New Horizons: Dietary protein, ageing and the Okinawan ratio

Abstract. Nutrition has profound effects on ageing and lifespan. Caloric restriction is the major nutritional intervention that historically has been shown

academic.oup.com

Low-protein High-carb Diet induces thermogenesis in subcutaneous white adipose tissue.
Low-protein High-carb Diet increases adiponectin hormone and preserves glucose homeostasis.
Low-protein High-carb Diet accelerates wound healing post-acute injury.
Low-protein High-carb Diet protects against clostridium difficile infection.
Low-protein High-carb Diet protects against weight gain and improves glucose tolerance.
Low-protein High-carb Diet increases browning in perirenal adipose tissue.