So I'm Currently In South East Asia

[Strongbad]

... to visit long distance relatives that I haven't seen in over a decade. Few interesting bits I've noticed after staying over for a little over a week:

1) My great granpa was 101 before he passed away. My great grandma is a little over 100 and is in great health. Based on local stories, It's pretty common to have elderlies who lived on 90s to 100s here. I have plenty of relatives in late 80s and 90s in good health.
2) Turns out my older cousins, uncles and even 85 years old relatives have a lot more hair than I do. Only I and some of my younger cousins experience hairloss or male pattern baldness (MPB).
3) There're discrepancies between diets of older generations and younger generations. Older crowds are more apprehensive to western diets and would rather stick to traditional cuisines. Younger crowds, especially the financially well-off ones, can afford western food and consuming a large portion of it on their daily diet regimen.
4) Obesity, cancers and general sickness are more prevalent on younger crowds, especially the rich ones. MPB is also more prevalent to these group of people.
5) I also notice some skinny MPB sufferers, but also a lot of super skinny old men with lush, full hair. In their 60s or 70s.

Since I'm interested to fixing MPB and having healthy, long live span I'm going to focus more on the older crowds and their daily diet / regiment.

These are some of the things they do that I, as a Peatarian, find odd / contradictory to Peatarian community dogmas:
1) None of them take thyroid supplement. NONE. They don't even know what thyroid is and that there's a supplement for it.
2) None of them take supplements to support their diet. They make fun of me whenever I see me taking supplements of vitamin E,Bs,K2 and Taurine. They think I look like a sick man and should go to hospital. My grandma said "Just eat good food and you need none of those pills!"
3) They consume WAY LESS calories than what Cronometer suggests, maybe around 1800s to 2000 calories range. Some even consume less. Maybe since they're older with lower metabolism they don't need that much calories, but still... This make me rethink considerably on Cronometer and its calories requirement. Maybe that 3000 minimum calories is only an arbitrary number? I don't even recall Ray Peat mentioning a specific minimum calorie requirement to have adequate metabolism. He only mention the dangers of caloric deficit.
4) They look and act 10-20 years younger than their age. Slim, energetic, relatively little wrinkles. They don't look that much older from the last time I saw them 10+ years ago.

These are their type of diet/food:
1) White rice with lots of vegetables with some local spices and some meat, but not much. White rice and vegetables take the center stage.
2) It's pretty much high carb, medium protein and low fat composition.
3) For boiled vegetables, they also drink the broth, too. Peatarians debate on various topics on this, but for south east Asians, it's customary to drink the broth if the vegetables are boiled.
4) They consume fruits, too since they're abundant and cheap here but in nowhere as much as Peatarians or fruitians do. Fruits is like occasional snacks to them. The main dishes are white rice and vegetables.
5) They don't drink milk that much. Very rare, actually. They don't even know what Greek Yogurt is and never consumed it.
6) Unfortunately, they don't shy away from legumes/nuts and pufa oils when cooking fried food. But in general, they don't consume much of it.
7) They prefer tea over coffee. I know that tea is anti-thyroid, but based on what I've seen so far, they consume some tea at least once a day and it doesn't seem to make them hypothyroid. Heck, they have more hair than I do!
8) Lots of sunshine and vitamin D. Dooh.

About male pattern baldness, it seems that caloric restriction is not an issue for MPBs but rather than whether a person has consume adequate micro nutrients in his/her daily diet. I've seen a fair share of skinny bald people here (although very little compared to US counterparts) but also a lot of old, super skinny men with thick lush hair on all ages. Almost all obese people here suffer MPB on some degree.

Now that I think about it, Hideo Kojima, the Metal Gear Solid producer, is 52 years old but looks like a late 20s. He has full thick black hair with very little, if any, strands of grey hair. Not to mention he's very skinny. I don't think he follows Cronometer's calorie requirement

 

[Dean]

Yeah , spending a significant amount of time abroad in the so-called third world is an eye opener. In SE Asia, the only obese people I saw were expats and their kids...and a few local well-offs (which brings clearer meaning to the term "fat cat"). Another thing I wondered and despaired about there was the total abandonment of the traditional tropical cooking oils in favor of the new-fangled western oils. It will be interesting to see the impact of that change in the older generations that in every other way stick to traditional foods.

 

[tara]

post 116888 6) Unfortunately, they don't shy away from legumes/nuts and pufa oils when cooking fried food. But in general, they don't consume much of it.

I guess if they are in their 80s+, this PUFA oil use may only be in the later part of their lives? More likely to have grown up eating coconut oil etc?

 

[Zachs]

I think MPB has less to do with calories and more to do with inflammation, probably from pufe, iron and inflammatory aminos. Three things that are very low in a traditional Asian diet.

I think you would be very smart to try that diet for awhile.

 

[Strongbad]

post 116894 Yeah , spending a significant amount of time abroad in the so-called third world is an eye opener. In SE Asia, the only obese people I saw were expats and their kids...and a few local well-offs (which brings clearer meaning to the term "fat cat"). Another thing I wondered and despaired about there was the total abandonment of the traditional tropical cooking oils in favor of the new-fangled western oils. It will be interesting to see the impact of that change in the older generations that in every other way stick to traditional foods.

Even the seasoned expats here are slim and have thick hair! The ones that are obese are either new expats or tourists. I think it's because veteran expats are more drawn to exoticness of local cuisine thus they consume healthier diet low in PUFA.

But somehow locals think that everything western is cool and trendy, especially their cuisines. It's funny that the rich crowds want their kids to be fat and encourage them to eat a lot. Being obese means that he/she is rich. It doesn't make sense, but that's just the way it is.

I agree that PUFA oil adoption is very rampart in south east Asia. It's probably the biggest mistake they've ever made diet-wise. It's pretty sad when grandafthers / grandmothers frequently outlive their kids and grandkids.

post 116908
I guess if they are in their 80s+, this PUFA oil use may only be in the later part of their lives? More likely to have grown up eating coconut oil etc?

PUFA oil adoption is relatively new but has been around since the last decade or so. Fortunately, the older generations, at least my family, reject it and stick with coconut oil.

Coconut is very abundant here. It's extremely affordable and come in different types, sizes and ripeness. People drink its water, eat its inner white skin, make coconut milk out of it and, of course, cook fried food with it.

But so far, the food my grandma's been cooking for me has very little oil. It's mostly rice, vegetables and its broth plus tropical spices with little meat. She uses very little coconut oil to cook. Sometimes we eat papayas, pineapples, coconuts, watermelons and mangos but only as small snacks between meals. Nothing much compared to what I used to consume back in states.

post 116922 I think MPB has less to do with calories and more to do with inflammation, probably from pufe, iron and inflammatory aminos. Three things that are very low in a traditional Asian diet.

I think you would be very smart to try that diet for awhile.

Make no mistake that traditional Asian diet is very Peaty. It's everything that Ray Peat recommends: nutrient-dense food, low tryptophan and other inflammatory aminos like you said, and very low in fat. Thus PUFA depletion is extremely easy to do in this context, and they've been doing this their entire life. Not just a month or two like us Peatarians do.

But now I eat a lot less calories that what I'm used to. Now I consume about 2000-2500 calories instead of 3000+. It's actually a nice change of pace from constantly eating small food every 3 hours to only have 3 big meals throughout the day with small fruits in between. I feel like my digestion system is no longer stressed out from processing food all the time. My lower right abdomen pain also slowly disappears! That freaking abdomen pain that I've been complaining about since February from Peating is finally going away, I'm so pleased

I discovered Okinawan diet a few months ago, and Westside PUFA has been pushing for more Peat-approved vegetarian diet lately. Now that I learned about my family's diet everything starts to make sense. The quest to find the ultimate, healthiest Ray-Peat diet is coming to an end...

 

[Suikerbuik]

Strongbad, thanks for taking your time writing this down :) ! Do they have concerns about arsenic? And how do they prepare the rice?

 

[Amazoniac]

Strongbad, thank you for sharing. Most of what you noticed there seem to be in agreement with what supercentenarians consume. Just look for the thread that I posted on compilation facts about them and you'll realize that.

 

[Peata]

This is interesting, thanks for posting.

I was curious about how the vegetables are cooked? It sounds like they are boiled if there is broth left to drink, but are the veggies mushy?

 

[Zachs]

post 117006 This is interesting, thanks for posting.

I was curious about how the vegetables are cooked? It sounds like they are boiled if there is broth left to drink, but are the veggies mushy?

Stir fry is a very good way to cook vegetables. If you have a nice wok with a cover you don't even need to use oils. Just cut veg pretty small and toss them in a bowl with a sauce, I use a combo of soy sauce, honey, rice vinegar, 5 spice, white pepper and garlic salt. Then when the wok is hot, toss it all in and cover. Stir it around every few minutes so nothing burns and if it starts to carmalize or burn, add a bit of water. When it's just about done, toss in the cooked rice and stir around until the water is evaporated. Getting a rice cooker is also key for eating this way.

Strongbad, I agree man. I have been eating a high starch, very low fat, low protein diet off and on for a year now and it is my go to diet if I'm starting to not feel good. I too had a lower right abdomen pain for the longest time and I believe it was from constipation and inflammatory protein stuck in the intestine. Now that I have two good fiber poops a day, its been gone for awhile. Lately I have been almost vegan, eating only rice, wheat, veg, beans and fruit/sugar, small amounts of fat from coconut and cacao. A few times a week I'll have an egg or two and some cheese. This is the diet I prefer and I feel good about it. Also I have upped my water intake through drinking a lot of tea (not green, just ginger or other random teas) and making sure to have warm liquid with every meal, typical of Asian meals, having a small amount of warm liquid withfood. This has also greatly improved digestion.

 

[mayweatherking]

post 116888 ... to visit long distance relatives that I haven't seen in over a decade. Few interesting bits I've noticed after staying over for a little over a week:

1) My great granpa was 101 before he passed away. My great grandma is a little over 100 and is in great health. Based on local stories, It's pretty common to have elderlies who lived on 90s to 100s here. I have plenty of relatives in late 80s and 90s in good health.
2) Turns out my older cousins, uncles and even 85 years old relatives have a lot more hair than I do. Only I and some of my younger cousins experience hairloss or male pattern baldness (MPB).
3) There're discrepancies between diets of older generations and younger generations. Older crowds are more apprehensive to western diets and would rather stick to traditional cuisines. Younger crowds, especially the financially well-off ones, can afford western food and consuming a large portion of it on their daily diet regimen.
4) Obesity, cancers and general sickness are more prevalent on younger crowds, especially the rich ones. MPB is also more prevalent to these group of people.
5) I also notice some skinny MPB sufferers, but also a lot of super skinny old men with lush, full hair. In their 60s or 70s.

Since I'm interested to fixing MPB and having healthy, long live span I'm going to focus more on the older crowds and their daily diet / regiment.

These are some of the things they do that I, as a Peatarian, find odd / contradictory to Peatarian community dogmas:
1) None of them take thyroid supplement. NONE. They don't even know what thyroid is and that there's a supplement for it.
2) None of them take supplements to support their diet. They make fun of me whenever I see me taking supplements of vitamin E,Bs,K2 and Taurine. They think I look like a sick man and should go to hospital. My grandma said "Just eat good food and you need none of those pills!"
3) They consume WAY LESS calories than what Cronometer suggests, maybe around 1800s to 2000 calories range. Some even consume less. Maybe since they're older with lower metabolism they don't need that much calories, but still... This make me rethink considerably on Cronometer and its calories requirement. Maybe that 3000 minimum calories is only an arbitrary number? I don't even recall Ray Peat mentioning a specific minimum calorie requirement to have adequate metabolism. He only mention the dangers of caloric deficit.
4) They look and act 10-20 years younger than their age. Slim, energetic, relatively little wrinkles. They don't look that much older from the last time I saw them 10+ years ago.

These are their type of diet/food:
1) White rice with lots of vegetables with some local spices and some meat, but not much. White rice and vegetables take the center stage.
2) It's pretty much high carb, medium protein and low fat composition.
3) For boiled vegetables, they also drink the broth, too. Peatarians debate on various topics on this, but for south east Asians, it's customary to drink the broth if the vegetables are boiled.
4) They consume fruits, too since they're abundant and cheap here but in nowhere as much as Peatarians or fruitians do. Fruits is like occasional snacks to them. The main dishes are white rice and vegetables.
5) They don't drink milk that much. Very rare, actually. They don't even know what Greek Yogurt is and never consumed it.
6) Unfortunately, they don't shy away from legumes/nuts and pufa oils when cooking fried food. But in general, they don't consume much of it.
7) They prefer tea over coffee. I know that tea is anti-thyroid, but based on what I've seen so far, they consume some tea at least once a day and it doesn't seem to make them hypothyroid. Heck, they have more hair than I do!
8) Lots of sunshine and vitamin D. Dooh.

About male pattern baldness, it seems that caloric restriction is not an issue for MPBs but rather than whether a person has consume adequate micro nutrients in his/her daily diet. I've seen a fair share of skinny bald people here (although very little compared to US counterparts) but also a lot of old, super skinny men with thick lush hair on all ages. Almost all obese people here suffer MPB on some degree.

Now that I think about it, Hideo Kojima, the Metal Gear Solid producer, is 52 years old but looks like a late 20s. He has full thick black hair with very little, if any, strands of grey hair. Not to mention he's very skinny. I don't think he follows Cronometer's calorie requirement

Regarding the metal gear solid producer, I think they have a different sex culture as well. Prolactin definetely goes up from orgasms and it crossed my mind about how much it is related to this whole situation. I think a lot of the asian culture isn't doing as much of the fapping and all that as western. there's a youtube video of korean guys looking at porn and they are just freaking out watching it.

 

[ecstatichamster]

there is tons and tons of porn use in Asia, especially Japan and Korea.

 

[nikotrope]

Japanese porn market is the second in the world (US is number one).

 

[Greg says]

Another thing I wondered and despaired about there was the total abandonment of the traditional tropical cooking oils in favor of the new-fangled western oils. It will be interesting to see the impact of that change in the older generations that in every other way stick to traditional foods.

I noticed this I'm India. Really common to see those big drums of vegetable oil outside restaurants. All the countryside is now fields of rape seed with John Deer tractors. I spoke with a seller of vegetable oil and he just repeated some propaganda about the cost and health benefits of vegetable oil. Sadly coconut oil and ghee may disappear. All the street food is cooked in nasty black reused vegetable oil.

 

[Strongbad]

post 116949 Strongbad, thanks for taking your time writing this down :) ! Do they have concerns about arsenic? And how do they prepare the rice?

It's pretty well-known amongst SE Asians that tap water is not safe for consumption other than for laundry, cleaning dishes and bathing. Other than extremely poor families, most households acquire their food and drinking water by buying purified water in big bottles, kinda like this but bigger:

My grandma washes the rice with water only once, drains the water, puts the rice into rice cooker, adds water into the mix. Usually in 1.5 : 1 ratio in favor of water but can either be more or less depending on how soft or tough she wants the rice to be.

post 116952 Strongbad, thank you for sharing. Most of what you noticed there seem to be in agreement with what supercentenarians consume. Just look for the thread that I posted on compilation facts about them and you'll realize that.

I assume this is the one you're referring to? viewtopic.php?t=8254 It's a very long compilation but chocolate, starches, vegetables and some calorie restrictions show a lot in that list.

post 117006 This is interesting, thanks for posting.

I was curious about how the vegetables are cooked? It sounds like they are boiled if there is broth left to drink, but are the veggies mushy?

That's exactly how they like it! You consume it like consuming chicken soup during cold/flu season. My grandma adds a lot of spices in the broth and it tastes great! The warm broth is very soothing to the stomach.

Zach is also on-point on cooking vegetables with frying pan / wok. Asians can get very creative in cooking their veggies

post 117175 I noticed this I'm India. Really common to see those big drums of vegetable oil outside restaurants. All the countryside is now fields of rape seed with John Deer tractors. I spoke with a seller of vegetable oil and he just repeated some propaganda about the cost and health benefits of vegetable oil. Sadly coconut oil and ghee may disappear. All the street food is cooked in nasty black reused vegetable oil.

That explains why older Indians are obese and MPB sufferers. I rarely see see full-hair older Indians nowadays unless they're slim and fit. Their saving grace is the inclusion of turmeric in their diet which is anti-cancer property.

 

[lvysaur]

Another interesting thing about Asian populations is that they have a lower rate of thymic involution, something that Peat warns against.

 

[Parsifal]

Isn't rice high in iron?

 

[EIRE24]

Isn't rice high in iron?

White rice? Doubt it

 

[mayweatherking]

seems to me MPB is messed up insulin resistance along with PUFA = recipe for diaster. if your insulin is messed up.. you will be releasing cortisol probably because that's how it got to that point.. cortisol is burning fatty acid for energy.. pufa leads to PGD2.. PGD2 = baldness.

sounds like they are good for MPB.. slow digesting carbs all day to keep the cortisol low.. and low PUFA... i'd say nuts don't have that much pufa compared to american diet.. i mena, how much pufa is in french fries? probably a lot more than nuts and seeds. and i wonder how eggs compare to seeds in pufa content since a lot of people tend to eat eggs around here.

honestly getting away from PUFA i think is the main problem at this point.. making sure it doesn't hit your blood stream.

 

[Bodhi]

I do not understand why SEA cuisine is so ideal..... I have been in Asia allot and even older folks use cheap soy oils in their foods...
Sorry but i haven't come across any younger or older person who was not cooking in vegetable oil....

Sure when u stick to white rice, good noodle broths, fruits you are fine but when u wanna eat good asian food when u are in asia you need too coock yourself to make sure it's low PUFA.

Strongbad... what country do you talk about?

 

[Parsifal]

Well, my dad is 63 and he almost has not white hair at all and no sign of baldness at all (strong thick hair) despite having chemotherapy and liver transplant 7 years ago and eating bad with lot of PUFA and iron.
He is fat, seems to have high oestrogen/prolactin/serotonin, low androgens and inflammation.
I think genetics have something do here (or at least high oestrogen might be protective against baldness after all in some contexts, I don't know), my grandmother who has alzheimers also had almost no white hair at 75...

White rice? Doubt it

Iron We Consume

Non-heme type of iron is found in greatest quantities in grains such as rice, wheat, and oats.