Dr. Peat’s protein recommendations seem lower especially for older people

[Nomane Euger]

maybe. I know sometimes i crave milk for the fat or just cause im thirsty, and other times i crave meat for salt, and even then how much should i be eating? Obviously its not something thats of necessity, and cravings probably are the best bet, i just think it would be interesting to see with myself. I also think that eating different proteins with different amino acid profiles effects different people differently. I think that collagen has protein sparing effects, necessitating less complete protein

i have not found a single way to eat muscle meat with out salt and find it tasty,unless its aged only the fat has taste with out salt and some organs.the taste and texture of the foods you eat evolve in real time in your mouth when you eat it,it can be drastic,it can be subtil,for any food trying it on it self unseasoned can make you experience the most accurate evolution of taste,texture,and desire to eat it,and how you feel,then you know how much your body can handle before to feel worst from it,and from my experience you should eat as much as needed from this food to reach the highest degree of well being this food that provide you

 

[haidut]

I misinterpreted your message to mean "higher metabolism requires more protein" rather than "higher metabolism can utilize more protein". I wonder if theres a commercial device similiar to Lumen that could measure protein being used for fuel, that way we wouldnt have to play a guessing game with ourselves

A blood/breadth test for ammonia is probably a good indication. Blood urea nitrogen (BUN) is also a pretty good indication for protein utilization. Anabolic steroids are known to powerfully lower BUN and it can actually be used to estimate the anabolic strength of a given steroid.

Testosterone prevents protein loss via the hepatic urea cycle in human

Context The urea cycle is a rate-limiting step for amino acid nitrogen elimination. The rate of urea synthesis is a true indicator of whole-body protein catabolism. Testosterone reduces protein and nitrogen loss. The effect of testosterone on hepatic urea synthesis in humans has not been...

eje.bioscientifica.com

More exotic, but much more sensitive and specific, tests for measuring the muscle anabolic/catabolic state of a person is a blood/urine test for 3-methyl-histidine and 1-methyl-histidine.

3-Methylhistidine (Plasma) | Healthmatters.io

3-Methylhistidine is an amino acid which is excreted in human urine. The measurement of 3-methylhistidine provi...

healthmatters.io

1-Methylhistidine - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/42/6/536.full.pdf

I think there are commercial devices used by hospitals for ammonia in breadth and the blood tests for ammonia and BUN are pretty standard and can be done by most labs. One can do a few larger protein meals and do the tests and basically the upper limit to optimal protein per meal for the person would be something that raises their baseline ammonia/BUN into the upper 25% of the normal range.

 

[ecstatichamster]

In a person where the ratio of anti-catabolic to catabolic steroids is low (and it does get progressively lower with age) protein beyond a certain dose can actually be harmful as a lot (most, maybe?) will be oxidized for energy (instead of being used for tissue building/repair) and thus generate a lot of ammonia. Even in young people it has been shown that 30g of protein per meal is the maximum amount that will be used towards protein synthesis. The rest will be oxidized for energy and thus potentially cause problems. Since the optimal daily protein intake derived by numerous studies seems to be ~1g/kg of lean body mass (muscles) then in an older person I can see how the optimal daily protein intake would be in the 40g-60g range - i.e. those old people do not have much lean muscle mass left.
Now, if an older person is using AAS and changes the anti-catabolic/catabolic ratio back intot he favorable range seen in young people then the protein requirements for that old person increase again to youthful levels. Plenty of studies with older people taking testosterone, oxandrolone, etc and starting to eat like ravenous beasts again. Even 90-year olds can apparently get their "anabolism" restored and fall back into youthful eating patterns

DHT restores anabolism / vitality / sexuality even in 90+ y.o. males

A great study, a true blast from the (better) past, when androgenic steroids and especially DHT were not considered the devil reincarnate, but were commonly used for all types of ailments, including the broad physiological and psychological symptoms of aging such as sarcopenia (muscle loss)...

raypeatforum.com

That’s super interesting. What is AAS?

 

[haidut]

That’s super interesting. What is AAS?

AAS = anabolic androgenic steroids. An abbreviation I have seen used in many studies discussing those steroids.

 

[VitoScaletta]

Can older people suffer from iron deficiency?

 

[ecstatichamster]

AAS = anabolic androgenic steroids. An abbreviation I have seen used in many studies discussing those steroids.

ah, thank you.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Can older people suffer from iron deficiency?

I doubt it is common. I think that it may happen with vegetarians.

Meat eaters, I doubt it.

 

[Blossom]

Dietary protein intake and human health - PubMed

A protein consists of amino acids (AA) linked by peptide bonds. Dietary protein is hydrolyzed by proteases and peptidases to generate AA, dipeptides, and tripeptides in the lumen of the gastrointestinal tract. These digestion products are utilized by bacteria in the small intestine or absorbed...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Generally speaking it looks like:
*0.8g/kg is the minimum
*Up to 2g/kg is safe
*3.5g/kg is the tolerable upper limit

 

[oxphoser]

He is lowering his protein to 60g per day to minimize methionine, I believe he said. And on a recent Timpone interview he said older people need much less protein as their metabolic rate falls.

It’s been known for a long time restricting methionine extends life. Maybe he’s restricting methionine to extend his life? This would be uppermost in my mind if I were in my late 80s.

————————

doi: 10.1007/978-1-4939-8796-2_19.

Methionine Restriction and Life-Span Extension​

Robert M Hoffman 1 2
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 30725421
• DOI: 10.1007/978-1-4939-8796-2_19

Abstract
It has been known for almost a century that caloric restriction can extend the life span of rodents and many other types of animals. Approximately 25 years ago, it was found that a methionine-restricted (MR) diet could replace a caloric-restricted diet with the result of extending the life span of animals. This chapter summarizes the effects of MR on the reversal of diabetes, obesity, and other aspects of the metabolic syndrome, as well as extending the normal life span. The most effective way to restrict methionine in the body, using orally-delivered methioninase, is also explored.

 

[ecstatichamster]

It’s been known for a long time restricting methionine extends life. Maybe he’s restricting methionine to extend his life? This would be uppermost in my mind if I were in my late 80s.

————————

doi: 10.1007/978-1-4939-8796-2_19.

Methionine Restriction and Life-Span Extension​

Robert M Hoffman 1 2
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 30725421
• 
  
• DOI: 10.1007/978-1-4939-8796-2_19

Abstract
It has been known for almost a century that caloric restriction can extend the life span of rodents and many other types of animals. Approximately 25 years ago, it was found that a methionine-restricted (MR) diet could replace a caloric-restricted diet with the result of extending the life span of animals. This chapter summarizes the effects of MR on the reversal of diabetes, obesity, and other aspects of the metabolic syndrome, as well as extending the normal life span. The most effective way to restrict methionine in the body, using orally-delivered methioninase, is also explored.

yes I'm sure this is exactly it. He's said this in fact.

 

[Amazoniac]

here peat sends a different message from what youre stating, saying that the less stressful a person is, the less protein they need

There's a difference between being a 'minimalist' out of option or because it's all that can be afforded (including the mental energy necessary to handle a more complex environment).

Efficient use of protein allows you to consume less. As it gets compromised, even though compensation with grater consumption seems logical, it will be limited by the consequences of the unused fraction and it has to match the overall nutritional state of the person. An older person has weaker digestion, I recall reading that up to 30% can be wasted due to poorer absorption. In practice it's likely to be lower than that, but it will be troublesome nevertheless.

Another point is that the responses tend to diversify with age because variability is accentuated with time, so it's worth being mindful when the recommendations are based on averages. Sometimes they're meant to cover most of the population, but someone can have the metabolic efficiency superior to that of a younger person. In other words, it gets difficult to generalize as we get older and I wouldn't consume more than what's craved because all factors are taken into consideration. For longevity, it's probably desirable to ingest slightly less protein than wanted and work on preservation.

- Protein Ingestion to Stimulate Myofibrillar Protein Synthesis Requires Greater Relative Protein Intakes in Healthy Older Versus Younger Men

Spoiler

"Consistent with previous observations (14,23), we found similar rates of postabsorptive MPS in older and younger men, suggesting that the gradual loss of muscle mass with advancing age is not related to an overt dysregulation of postabsorptive MPS in healthy adults. In addition, maximal postprandial rates of MPS were generally similar between the young and older men in the present study (~0.058% and ~0.056%/h, respectively), suggesting healthy elderly muscle retains the capacity for enhanced rates of MPS, but only with sufficient nutritional stimulation (24–26). However, we observed a “rightward” shift of the breakpoint and a lower slope of the first component of ingested protein dose–MPS response curve, which are indicative of a reduced sensitivity of elderly muscle to smaller amounts of ingested dietary protein. This “anabolic resistance” of MPS with aging is not without precedent (26,27) and may be related to factors such as a dysregulation of intracellular signaling (14), a reduction in postprandial nutritive blood flow (28), development of subclinical chronic inflammation (29), a greater splanchnic extraction of amino acids (30), and/or a reduction in habitual activity (5). The multifactorial nature of this “anabolic resistance” coupled with the possibility that older adults may present with one or many of these factors may have contributed to the greater heterogeneity (as reflected by a greater 95% CI) in the MPS response in the older as compared with younger men in the present study."

"[..]it should be noted that the breakpoint observed in the present study would reflect the estimated average requirement to maximize MPS and, as such, the acute protein intake may be as high as ~0.60 g/kg for some older men (depending on the presence of potential contributing factors to the “anabolic resistance” of MPS) and ~0.40 g/kg for some younger men. Therefore, the recommendations reported herein according to breakpoint analysis could be considered a minimum target for meal protein intake with the upper 95% CI satisfying the majority men."

"[..]muscle disuse (5,38,39), disease status (29), and/or lower quality protein (with lower leucine content (36,40)) would likely increase (ie, induce a “rightward shift”) relative protein requirements, regardless of age. Therefore, future work is required to determine to what extent the present protein intake to maximize MPS can be translated to other populations (eg, healthy/diseased and women) and under different nutritional conditions (eg, protein source, macronutrient co-ingestion, digestion rate, and food matrix). Additionally, given the potential heterogeneity of older populations, studies with larger sample sizes may help increase the accuracy (as reflected by a reduced 95% CI) of the estimated protein intake to maximize postprandial MPS in older adults, as determined by breakpoint analysis."

 

[Amazoniac]

The most effective way to restrict methionine in the body, using orally-delivered methioninase, is also explored.

- Oral dosing of Recombinant Methioninase Is Associated With a 70% Drop in PSA in a Patient With Bone-metastatic Prostate Cancer and 50% Reduction in Circulating Methionine in a High-stage Ovarian Cancer Patient

Spoiler

"Many studies have demonstrated that rMETase is efficacious in cancer cells in vitro, cell-line tumors growing in mice, and PDOX models (23-49). However, it was difficult to develop an injectable rMETase into a drug since it is a bacterial protein that elicited strong immune reactions in monkeys, which could be partially overcome by PEGyletion (50)."

"A major breakthrough occurred in 2017 when we observed that rMETase (31), despite being a very large protein, could be administered very effectively orally (24, 25, 26, 27, 32, 33, 39, 40, 46). o-rMETase restricts methionine in the gut, and thereby lowers the levels of methionine in the bloodstream (33). o-rMETase itself did not enter the bloodstream making it a far safer agent than injectable methioninase. Therefore, our strategy was to develop methioninase as an oral supplement."

"A pilot phase I clinical trial was carried out to determine i.v. rMETase toxicity, and the extent of methionine depletion in high-stage cancer patients. Circulating methionine was lowered to 0.1 μM by methioninase without toxicity (51, 52)."

"The present study describes oral recombinant methioninase (o-rMETase), as a supplement, to induce MR in cancer patients."

"A patient with high-stage ovarian cancer took o-rMETase twice a day at a dose of 250 units. After approximately one month of administration, the patient had no side effects. Within four hours of a dose of o-rMETase the patient’s circulating methionine decreased 50% (Figure 1)."

"rMETase was produced by fermentation of recombinant E. coli. and purified using column chromatography with DEAE-Sepharose FF, Sephacryl S-200HR, and ActiCleanEtox, resulting in 98% purity with low endotoxin and high yield (17). Pure methioninase was dissolved in PBS or water at 5 mg/ml, which comprised one dose for oral administration after breakfast and dinner."

"Future studies involving larger cohorts of patients with high-stage cancer are required to determine if o-rMETase, as a supplement, can increase survival and improve the quality of life."

@Panquinoned, Sansithiozin?

 

[Amazoniac]

I know (Terma, 2020), but purified amino acids supplementation that excludes the undesirable ones can lead to a sharp apperance in the system, with some of them likely promoting cancer, the release would have to controlled. This strategy is advantageous when you consider the 'whole-body protein turnover':

- Metabolism of amino acids and proteins | LLL Programme

Spoiler

As is showned, some protein is lost to the intestines and is recovered, adding to the intake input. So, there's still application for methioninase.

---

- Aging, protein requirements, and protein turnover
- Nutrition, Protein Turnover and Muscle Mass

 

[Cloudhands]

@haiddo you know anything about mc1r polymorphisms and proteinuria? i believe that red haired mammals with the mc1r polymorphism excrete more amino acids than other mammals, and i wonder if this is either due to less protein needed (more efficient), or less efficient utilization, therefor even more would be needed due to loss. I know that it can be associated with nephrotic injury, but i dont know if that leads to protein loss, or if less protein is needed leading to kidney damage from excess. Its all very confusing.

 

[Cloudhands]

@haiddo you know anything about mc1r polymorphisms and proteinuria? i believe that red haired mammals with the mc1r polymorphism excrete more amino acids than other mammals, and i wonder if this is either due to less protein needed (more efficient), or less efficient utilization, therefor even more would be needed due to loss. I know that it can be associated with nephrotic injury, but i dont know if that leads to protein loss, or if less protein is needed leading to kidney damage from excess. Its all very confusing.

*typo this message was meant for you @haidut

 

[David PS]

This was published earlier this month.

Protein restriction and branched-chain amino acid restriction promote geroprotective shifts in metabolism​

 

[Sefton10]

Broda Barnes was pretty low in his protein recommendations too.

 

[Cloudhands]

Broda Barnes was pretty low in his protein recommendations too

@Hans has any of your research touched on protein intake causing hypothyroidism?

 

[Kvothe]

Broda Barnes was pretty low in his protein recommendations too.

It is interesting that he notes that only the high-protein-moderate-carbohydrate-diet causes symptoms of hypothyroidism, and not the high-protein diet alone. He is very likely talking about starch when he says carbohydrates, so Barnes was already aware that a starch-protein diet is probably the worstd diet possible for many people. I have never felt worse in my life then when I ate meat, rice, and vegetables because I thought that was the cleanest, healthiest diet on earth. The combination of thyroid suppressing amino acid and hyperinsulinemic starch is an express ticket to hypothyroidism and hypoglycemia.

 

[Hans]

@Hans has any of your research touched on protein intake causing hypothyroidism?

In young men, varied protein intake doesn't negatively affect thyroid function. When it comes to testosterone optimization, stick to below 35% protein of total calories. I'd say that's a good guideline for thyroid function as well. Plus, protein-rich foods are the best source of micros necessary to optimize thyroid function. When you start to drop below 100-150g carbs daily, then T3 can take a hit though.