Has Ray turned vegan? How is he doing?

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
Hey,

in his last interview with Danny / Haidut Ray mentioned the following:

- He has around 600g of carbs per day ( keeping the metabolic rate up; fair enough )
carb sources: orange juice and well cooked vegetables
- He limits protein to around 50g per day
to restrict methionine intake ( since some rat / mice studies showed an increase in life span of 40% )
- Danny asked: so you basically reduce your egg, liver and dairy intake?
Answer: Yes

If he has 600g of protein per day from orange juice and well cooked vegetables he more or less already has around 50g of protein.
In an emal exchange with me he aims to have as less dietary fat intake as possible
in order to minimize PUFA intake to a bare minimum.
So that leaves us with a more or less vegan diet of orange juice and cooked vegetables.

Let me state that I very much appreciate Rays work and the benefits I have had from applying his wise knowlege
( judged by how good I feel at the age of 48, how much energy I have and by blood work ).
My point is that there is a study for everything and even the opposite of everything.
I myself as a non bio-chemist can`t really tell which one of those studies are valid, etc.
so I have to find trustworthy experts.
I am convinced that Ray, Georgi, Danny, Hans and a few others are the most trustworthy and competent
nutrition / lifestyle experts I have ever found but I am becoming sceptical about Ray:

- Hasn`t he always praised dairy so much?
- Hasn`t he always emphasized animal protein, liver, an animal source of VIt A.
- Hasn`t he always stated that 80-120g of protein per day for liver health; even more in an active person?
- Before one or two years he was speaking clearly and fluently now he is hard to understand,stuttering constantly; why is that?
- He says that limiting protein in old age is different from limiting protein in young people that old people don`t need
as much protein for anabolic reasons; but isn`t the whole bioenergetic approach about keeping the system up, even in old age?

My diet for context:
- Have been vegan for around 2 years; have been metabolicly damaged but not so much
- Started with milk and white sugar; felt great; added oranges, liverwurst, cooked mussels, felt even better
- later on added meat with gelatin.; which was a real game changer
( had even more energy; bowel movements went from 1 per day to 2-3 per day after adding meat and replacing oranges with orange juice )

Let`s have an open, fair on-topic discussion.
 

LeeLemonoil

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
4,265
@FrankMa

Some thoughts:

Yes, some of that seems to deviate from his decades long teachings.

On the other hand, Peat still seems to react to novel knowledge from life-sciences and - most importantly - he acknowledges that the conditions and the actual state of a human organism requires different approaches. Everything is Homoestasis.

Peat for decades more or less claimed that keeping metabolism high, especially keeping oxidative metabolism of sugar up to par / at the same time thyroid function high/optimal will virtual not age a human being. Kind of.

This was likely never true. We haven’t figured out everything that factors into ageing - not by a long shot.

Methionine restriction is one of the mainstays of Anti-Age research and approaches. Peat himself always kind of agreed to that - but he didn’t do much of restriction instead he vouched for offsetting methionine with Glycine intake (from gelatin /collagen)

Vitamin A: but also other very active signaling molecules that can be found in eggs, liver and other organs:

Yes, they are very valuable to a healthy, functional organism - but they are always also powerfully signaling in a deranged situation.
Senescence is real. Cancer is real. Enzymatic distortions are real.

Interesting is his switch to more vegetables.
They offer as I like to think about them the opposite side of signaling molecules than meat:
Molecules that regulate cellular mechanisms, tend to hinder metabolism or structure the substance.
That’s what an old organism in my book needs to do to prolong its life.
It’s System is chaotic and messy, It’s regulation overburdened, blind and exhausted.

Elements of what Ray Peat recommends for food, lifestyle, supplements are very valuable when included sensibly at the Right situation of an organisms lifetime. It can help both to maintain and heal.

His focus and warnings on / of PUFAs and estrogen-prolactin signaling and disturbed thyroid is still not entirely mainstream or accepted. His biggest achievement as a health-biologists/teacher is to defend this knowledge and spread it against all resistance.

Being open to new findings in science and trying to include them into a preformed point of view is hard and requires continuous critical thinking, decency, a lot of virtues. He does it even in old age and that’s a proof that he has done many things right.

But age, some day catches everyone. Me you and even Ray Peat.
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
but I am becoming sceptical about Ray:
A mythological user from the forum (gbolduev) had the opinion that the whole RP health style (if you wanna call it like that) is in reality Ray's adaptation of diet/supps/medicine to what has suited him best since he started and then extrapolated to general population. And while I don't think it is 100% true, I think it is to quite some degree true.

Therefore it makes sense that he keeps changing and adapting to what suits him best.

Also: why are you concerned an almost 90yr old man changes his diet? It makes sense that a 20-50 yr old body will not function the same as a 80something yr old, therefore it needs changes.

Or you think we can all have all-night whisky drinking when we reach 80 and react the same as when on our 30s?
 

OliviaD

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
273
Location
USA
Hey,

in his last interview with Danny / Haidut Ray mentioned the following:

- He has around 600g of carbs per day ( keeping the metabolic rate up; fair enough )
carb sources: orange juice and well cooked vegetables
- He limits protein to around 50g per day
to restrict methionine intake ( since some rat / mice studies showed an increase in life span of 40% )
- Danny asked: so you basically reduce your egg, liver and dairy intake?
Answer: Yes

If he has 600g of protein per day from orange juice and well cooked vegetables he more or less already has around 50g of protein.
In an emal exchange with me he aims to have as less dietary fat intake as possible
in order to minimize PUFA intake to a bare minimum.
So that leaves us with a more or less vegan diet of orange juice and cooked vegetables.

Let me state that I very much appreciate Rays work and the benefits I have had from applying his wise knowlege
( judged by how good I feel at the age of 48, how much energy I have and by blood work ).
My point is that there is a study for everything and even the opposite of everything.
I myself as a non bio-chemist can`t really tell which one of those studies are valid, etc.
so I have to find trustworthy experts.
I am convinced that Ray, Georgi, Danny, Hans and a few others are the most trustworthy and competent
nutrition / lifestyle experts I have ever found but I am becoming sceptical about Ray:

- Hasn`t he always praised dairy so much?
- Hasn`t he always emphasized animal protein, liver, an animal source of VIt A.
- Hasn`t he always stated that 80-120g of protein per day for liver health; even more in an active person?
- Before one or two years he was speaking clearly and fluently now he is hard to understand,stuttering constantly; why is that?
- He says that limiting protein in old age is different from limiting protein in young people that old people don`t need
as much protein for anabolic reasons; but isn`t the whole bioenergetic approach about keeping the system up, even in old age?

My diet for context:
- Have been vegan for around 2 years; have been metabolicly damaged but not so much
- Started with milk and white sugar; felt great; added oranges, liverwurst, cooked mussels, felt even better
- later on added meat with gelatin.; which was a real game changer
( had even more energy; bowel movements went from 1 per day to 2-3 per day after adding meat and replacing oranges with orange juice )

Let`s have an open, fair on-topic discussion.
No matter how 'right' you do everything... the system is not designed to go on forever. As I understand, Ray has lived into old age with more energy, vitality, and good health than most. I would say he is working full time or more, at age.. 85, I think? I don't hear him changing his mind about any of the things you have listed. I hear him saying that he has learned via experience, that his metabolic needs have changed in his 80s, and before. I would expect this. We are not the same at 20, 40, 60 or 80. Everyone I know in their 80s eats much less than before, whatever their diet is. it seems he is adapting to the changing needs of his body.

I would not trust any 'expert' who does not ever change their mind.

I think if this approach is working for you - and it seems it is; you should go with it! When you get to 60, or 80 - your body will advise you. I don't know anything about Ray's voice issues.

I know what you mean about studies, and 'experts' or non-experts with opinions. I can find evidence to support eating or not eating just about anything. Exercising heavily, or hardly at all. Honestly, I've come to think that our attitude (i.e living with purpose, joy and a sense of humor) , and for lack of a better work; being happy is more important than any particular diet or exercise (provided the diet is not extremely wacky. i.e most things in 'moderation'. :)
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
My point is that there is a study for everything and even the opposite of everything.
I myself as a non bio-chemist can`t really tell which one of those studies are valid, etc.
so I have to find trustworthy experts.
Spot on. You can pick up studies on pubmed and create whatever narrative you want. Endless narratives as there are studies for everything and done in so diverse ways.

Spoiler: There are no experts. Nobody really knows yet by reading pubmed studies. I would rather trust more clinical practice than cherry picked studies.

Example:
You can find a study in pubmed claiming sugar helps against cancer, but if the Gersons had experience with hundreds of patients curing them by cutting sugar I would rather trust them than a pubmed study.
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
Thanks for your reply.

I once asked Ray which one of his guidelines are the most important one.
- by guidelines I mean: calcium / phospor ratio, aminco acid imbalance, sugar over starches, minimizing endotoxin, keeping the metabolic rate up... -
He replied that besides having a well functioning thyroid avoiding amino acid imbalance is the most important factor.
So I agree that it is not so far fetched that he is now limiting his protein intake.
I would argue though that having at least 100g of animal protein is needed, that balancing methionine with glycine is better than restricting protein.
I suppose I would wither away on having only 50g of protein. But then again I am way younger than Ray and most likely way more active than Ray.
Besides that I base my assumtion not on experiment but just on the fact that I gained a ton of muscle effortlessly since I have incorporated
animal protein in my diet. The question remains if that has to do with animal protein or other factors like having a higher metabolic rate in comparison to
when I was a vegan.

Senescence is real; I agree.
As far as I remember Ray stated that theoretically aging could be avoided but detrimental environmental factors make that nearly impossible.
BTW: there have been many bodybuilders of the so called golden era who lived a long and active live on meat, chicken, dairy, vegetables,
who supposedly never became ill, still worked out in their 80s; some of them restricted meat, none of them seem to have restricted dairy and eggs.

In regards to vegetables:
I understand your reasoning; but then again wouldn`t it be wise to combine vegetables with animal protein?
Which vegetables are you personally eating?

"Elements of what Ray Peat recommends for food, lifestyle, supplements are very valuable when included sensibly at the Right situation of an organisms lifetime.
It can help both to maintain and heal."
Totally agree; context matters most!

Yes, Rays work on PUFA, estrogen, prolactin, serotonin, thyroid is priceless.
Nevertheless: Are all PUFAS metabolized the same way? I am under the slight impression that there is a significant difference
between PUFA in vegetable oil and PUFA in for example eggs, seeds. ( Heresy, I know ).

"Being open to new findings in science and trying to include them into a preformed point of view is hard and requires continuous critical thinking, decency, a lot of virtues. He does it even in old age and that’s a proof that he has done many things right."
Good point but cirtics would say he is not so open any more, that for years he has resisted new scientific evidence.



















At the same time
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
A mythological user from the forum (gbolduev) had the opinion that the whole RP health style (if you wanna call it like that) is in reality Ray's adaptation of diet/supps/medicine to what has suited him best since he started and then extrapolated to general population. And while I don't think it is 100% true, I think it is to quite some degree true.

Therefore it makes sense that he keeps changing and adapting to what suits him best.

Also: why are you concerned an almost 90yr old man changes his diet? It makes sense that a 20-50 yr old body will not function the same as a 80something yr old, therefore it needs changes.

Or you think we can all have all-night whisky drinking when we reach 80 and react the same as when on our 30s?
"A mythological user from the forum (gbolduev) had the opinion that the whole RP health style (if you wanna call it like that) is in reality Ray's adaptation of diet/supps/medicine to what has suited him best since he started and then extrapolated to general population. And while I don't think it is 100% true, I think it is to quite some degree true."
Yes, I agree to some degree.

"Also: why are you concerned an almost 90yr old man changes his diet? It makes sense that a 20-50 yr old body will not function the same as a 80something yr old, therefore it needs changes."
I am not concerned that on old man changes his diet; I just want to learn and understand; nothing more to my thread.

Besides that I travel a lot; Over the years I have seen many old people who don`t care at all about what they are eating, living in miserable
circumstances but still being very fit; sure, not so much in the western world.....
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
No matter how 'right' you do everything... the system is not designed to go on forever. As I understand, Ray has lived into old age with more energy, vitality, and good health than most. I would say he is working full time or more, at age.. 85, I think? I don't hear him changing his mind about any of the things you have listed. I hear him saying that he has learned via experience, that his metabolic needs have changed in his 80s, and before. I would expect this. We are not the same at 20, 40, 60 or 80. Everyone I know in their 80s eats much less than before, whatever their diet is. it seems he is adapting to the changing needs of his body.

I would not trust any 'expert' who does not ever change their mind.

I think if this approach is working for you - and it seems it is; you should go with it! When you get to 60, or 80 - your body will advise you. I don't know anything about Ray's voice issues.

I know what you mean about studies, and 'experts' or non-experts with opinions. I can find evidence to support eating or not eating just about anything. Exercising heavily, or hardly at all. Honestly, I've come to think that our attitude (i.e living with purpose, joy and a sense of humor) , and for lack of a better work; being happy is more important than any particular diet or exercise (provided the diet is not extremely wacky. i.e most things in 'moderation'. :)
"No matter how 'right' you do everything... the system is not designed to go on forever. As I understand, Ray has lived into old age with more energy, vitality, and good health than most. I would say he is working full time or more, at age.. 85, I think? I don't hear him changing his mind about any of the things you have listed. I hear him saying that he has learned via experience, that his metabolic needs have changed in his 80s, and before. I would expect this. We are not the same at 20, 40, 60 or 80. Everyone I know in their 80s eats much less than before, whatever their diet is. it seems he is adapting to the changing needs of his body."
Very good point.

"I know what you mean about studies, and 'experts' or non-experts with opinions. I can find evidence to support eating or not eating just about anything. Exercising heavily, or hardly at all. Honestly, I've come to think that our attitude (i.e living with purpose, joy and a sense of humor) , and for lack of a better work; being happy is more important than any particular diet or exercise (provided the diet is not extremely wacky. i.e most things in 'moderation'. :)
Thank you for reminding me of this; I agree 100% but from time to time I get "technical", if you want to call it that way.
Many of my friends are walking a lot; at least 10-15km per day, low intensity, interesting environment; that seems to help a lot with everything.
BTW: Low intensity walking is one of Rays "recommandations".
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
Spot on. You can pick up studies on pubmed and create whatever narrative you want. Endless narratives as there are studies for everything and done in so diverse ways.

Spoiler: There are no experts. Nobody really knows yet by reading pubmed studies. I would rather trust more clinical practice than cherry picked studies.

Example:
You can find a study in pubmed claiming sugar helps against cancer, but if the Gersons had experience with hundreds of patients curing them by cutting sugar I would rather trust them than a pubmed study.
I agree to that 100%.
I always prefer to watch real life results.
 

Herbie

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,192
He still drinks milk and said its hard to brake the habits of him drinking 3-4 quarts per day, this was in a recent Patrick T interview when speaking about how he lowered his protein.
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
Good to know that he still drinks milk.
3-4 quarts of milk is quite an contradiction to his latest intervie with Danny.
 

-Luke-

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Messages
1,269
Location
Nomansland
- Before one or two years he was speaking clearly and fluently now he is hard to understand,stuttering constantly; why is that?
I think you are reading too much into this. Here is an interview from more than ten years ago for example:
A lot of "um" and "ah" and stuttering and pauses. I don't know him any other way to be honest.
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
I think you are reading too much into this. Here is an interview from more than ten years ago for example:
A lot of "um" and "ah" and stuttering and pauses. I don't know him any other way to be honest.
ah. ok.
It seems that I coincidentally listened to older interviews in all of which he speaks fluently.
I have drawn the wrong conclusion.
Thanks
 

Smelly5

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2022
Messages
165
Location
Australia
He also mentions that older people don't need as much protein as a younger person. He's 85.
 

Blossom

Moderator
Forum Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
11,032
Location
Indiana USA
I really appreciate @FrankMa that you started this thread. It’s really a wonderful gift that Ray is still out there at 85 sharing his insights. I don’t know many people his age who are still engaged enough to share their hard earned knowledge and wisdom tbh.
The biggest takeaways I’ve gleaned from him over the years is to consider our own personal context and act accordingly. His context is quite a bit different from mine so I eat different than he does and have done so out of necessity for several years. I still greatly appreciate him and couldn’t have started figuring out what works for me if I hadn’t first learned to start thinking for myself and questioning the common dietary advice both mainstream and alternative.
I do truly feel that our personal dietary needs change through out the different life stages and I’ve experienced that for myself so I’m not really shocked that he’s adapted his own approach.
 

Beastmode

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
1,258
At Peat's age and lack of physical activity, eating less protein is probably a safer approach. His specific diet is a lot healthier than my now deceased grandmas and grandpas who lived to 90-100+, but the tenents of a high carb, low protein similar to theirs. All had some form of cognitive decline, but all died of old age and none from any kind of cancer, heart disease, etc.
 

-Luke-

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Messages
1,269
Location
Nomansland
At Peat's age and lack of physical activity, eating less protein is probably a safer approach. His specific diet is a lot healthier than my now deceased grandmas and grandpas who lived to 90-100+, but the tenents of a high carb, low protein similar to theirs. All had some form of cognitive decline, but all died of old age and none from any kind of cancer, heart disease, etc.
For this generation "low protein" is probably also something quite natural because they didn't know anything else since childhood. My mother and father (born in 1954 and 1951, respectively) both say that at home, they used to have meat or fish once a week on the weekends, if at all. So for my grandparents the typical protein sources were more like luxury food, other than some milk and maybe one egg per day. Especially during and after World War 2, there wasn't much more than bread and potatoes.
 

InChristAlone

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
5,955
Location
USA
The Okinawans the most aged population consume a low protein high carb diet. Basically what Peat is doing. I believe excess protein is hard on the kidneys. I got my husband to stop consuming gobs and gobs of whey protein and his kidney function got better instead of slowly declining (based on blood labs).
 
OP
F

FrankMa

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
137
The Okinawans the most aged population consume a low protein high carb diet. Basically what Peat is doing. I believe excess protein is hard on the kidneys. I got my husband to stop consuming gobs and gobs of whey protein and his kidney function got better instead of slowly declining (based on blood labs).
I don`t think that is true.
Before WW II the Okinawa Diet contained larg ammounts of pork, a special pork, most likely a low PUFA pork.
The information on the Okinawa Diet is rigged.
Whey is highly inflammatory; it`s garbage.
Maybe it was more about eliminating garbage than eliminating protein.
 

Similar threads

F
Replies
28
Views
7K
Frama
F
Back
Top Bottom