An Almost Fat Free, Starch Free Experiment

[Peata]

How much cascara or pau'darco do you take daily?

 

[SQu]

I'm afraid I can't answer because I've been using tinctures. The pharmacist didn't know how much of the herb is in the tincture. So I've been going by trial and error. All i can say is I needed more than the instructions on the bottle indicate. but I'm glad I underdosed to start with rather than the other way around!

 

[montmorency]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/90429/

Ray has also commented about the goodness of ketones as a fuel source, when someone on a radio interview asked him about ketosis. He said the catch is that ketone production is a result of stress.

I'm not 100% sure Peat is clued into the latest relevant research on this, especially after seeing the experiments of Peter Attia.

Interesting. I know it's not politically-correct here to say so, but many people do well on low-carbs (and there is more than one way to do low-carbs, and there is no reason on earth why "low-carb" should equate to "high PUFAs" although it's an equation I keep seeing being made.

Not saying it suits everyone, and @sueq it apparently didn't work for you. Sorry, didn't mean to derail your thread, but just thought it had to be said.

 

[SQu]

Bad patch started 5 days ago when homemade stock too long in the fridge brought on feeling of nausea, weakness that I've been trying to fix ever since. Presumably glutamate in the stock. Caffeine tolerance dropped - interesting - and mood very poor. I can't take as much cascara as I think would assist mood because it's too effective as laxative and pau d Arco has similar effect. Tsp cinnamon helped a bit. Been throwing everything I can think of at it. Today I started with progesterone as this patch also coincided with a period after 58 day gap. technically I should wait till day 12/13 but this feels like estrogen, maybe NO too. I do think cutting bad patches short is key to getting into an upward health spiral. In the recent past gelatin and coffee have helped but I don't want those now. I am still having some coffee but it's not going down well. Seems you have to be a bit healthier for coffee.oh and it's been cloudy the past few days. I never feel good then.

 

[SQu]

Next day- progesterone has been helping, coffee making things worse. I have to stop coffee again for a while, or go back to once a day. Coinciding with being very busy and too stressed, it's not helping. As before, adrenalin seems to build up, during bad patch where no doubt estrogen and its friends are running amok. I'm very stressed, overwhelmed, making mistakes. I do feel less nauseous today though.

 

[SQu]

improvement following lots of time outdoors in the sun, coffee tolerance restored.progesterone may have helped. Feeling very hot but then it is very hot, so hard to tell if sweating is flushing, the heat, or raised metabolism. took temp - yesterday in the evening, 36.7. today, 37.2. flushing should lower temp if i recall correctly. mine tends to be low - 36.4 on waking is normal for me. so i'm hoping it's not flushing.

 

[SQu]

This has been a very bad patch in terms of energy, aching, mood and I think the skipped period which I think officially labels this menopause might explain it in terms of estrogen overload. I think tertroxin is also weak t3. So I'm underdosed even when I take a lot, spread through the day to try and mitigate the adrenalin reaction. I think, trying to get to the heart of this, the energy slump is the main symptom, explainable by estrogen. I think knock on effects include not being able to get energy from sugar. Without effective use of sugar I can't lower adrenalin without Clonidine that leaves me too flat. For this reason and in response to appetite which currently says it's not too interested in sugar but can face starch, I'm having some starch. I have to get energy somewhere even as fat stores remain untouched. Continued below...

 

[SQu]

I'm averse to protein right now too, presumably ammonia build up. There's little that appeals but eggs are still on the list, some milk ( worsening hypo symptoms makes the liquid a problem) fruit juice, and I'll try mashed potato or rice with a bit of butter for supper. I'm managing to keep digestion ok with coffee and cascara so at least that's not adding to the problem. Considering another doctor for the progesterone and pregnenolone route. I do still have some progesterone and it is certainly helping symptoms. I'm impressed by how one missed period unleashes the estrogen that I was starting to manage a bit better.
Flushing: trying to distinguish between 3 possibilities when I flush : 1 it's hot 2. Effects of caffeine and 3. Flushing. Waking temps still so very low (36 yesterday) that despite 30 degrees of heat and flushing temps of 37.2 it's probably estrogen related flushing. Clonidine helps and for the flat energy I'll try potato, see if my body can actually use it, unlike sugar.

 

[Peata]

Interesting, Sue, I had a major energy slump yesterday as well, first full day of period. I hadn't been sleeping well at all for a few nights though. When you get the energy slumps, I wonder is it like mine where you have no energy to do anything all day - all I can do is sit or lie down. The only real activity I could do was dishes toward late afternoon when I finally got a little energy back. I still managed to eat some through the day though. I think it was estrogen related. I used to get that fatigue more often to where I thought I was getting chronic fatigue. Now it comes once in a while.

 

[Giraffe]

post 101378 improvement following lots of time outdoors in the sun, coffee tolerance restored.progesterone may have helped. Feeling very hot but then it is very hot, so hard to tell if sweating is flushing, the heat, or raised metabolism. took temp - yesterday in the evening, 36.7. today, 37.2. flushing should lower temp if i recall correctly. mine tends to be low - 36.4 on waking is normal for me. so i'm hoping it's not flushing.

Hi Sue, I wonder if the Supplemental D3 thread can give you an idea what is going on.

 

[SQu]

Hi peata yes, it's like the plug got pulled. Legs weak. Flat. I used to think I had chronic fatigue for this reason, and aching made fibromyalgia my second bet. Aching responded to peating but revisits from time to time, like now. Poor sleep - very similar to your story. Potato with coconut oil, butter, coffee, oj and progesterone, t3 have improved my day so far.
Giraffe I was a bit low on vit d 18 months ago, haven't retested but have made a point of getting outside more and do feel better for it and should be getting enough. D supps I can get locally are feeble and expensive so seeing as it's possible to get enough here from the sun that's what I try to do. I'm going to reread that thread for more info, thanks so much.
Edit: just read it, inflammation and calcification the issues. I'm feeling an old injury today so inflammation is indeed up, so aspirin it is! Also seems to confirm d from sunlight might be better. I'm taking eggshel for the ratio anyway - party of regular ache control.

 

[James IV]

Out of curiosity; Have you ever just tried eating mixed meals of the foods you like, to appetite, with no snacking, and allowing yourself to get hungry between meals? doing your best to avoid pufa oils.
I'm seeing on this board a trend of supplementation and trying to food medicate to get things just right to achieve health and weight loss. I rarely see people lose fat and get healthier that way.
I hope I do not sound belittling, but I have been in the industry so long, it's hard to watch folks struggle looking for some magic formula.
if you have fat to lose, you need to provide an environment where your body will need that fat for energy. Eating a mixed macro meal (macros being dictated by cravings) to appetite (not until physical fullness) and then waiting until stomach hunger occurs to eat again is a fine way to incur a small energy deficit and tap into fat stores. Once your body becomes comfortable tapping into fat stores, you should have more energy, not less, and activity should spontaneously increase.
I know peat says burning stored pufa is bad, but the reality is that if you've accumulated a lot of stored pufa, you're going to have to burn some of it for energy if you want to lose any significant amount of weight. I do believe that you can probably offset the negative effects by nourishing your metabolism and avoiding pufa after the weight is lost.
I wish you well with your journey.

 

[Giraffe]

Sue, I did not want to suggest you supplement vitamin D3. Aspririn sounds like a good idea. Also see here post 50889.

 

[SQu]

James thanks for your thoughts. I wish I could do that. When I do, by the time I feel hunger my blood sugar is so low I'm light headed, weak, shaky, and irritable. And actually fatter. If and when I lose, it's when I feel well, energy and mood good. When I feel flat, I'll only put on. I'm trying to listen to my appetite right now which is why I'm choosing as I am. I don't expect miracles from food or anything - just to choose closer and closer to body signals, in line with current needs. That would be good. By now, 4 years later, hopefully, pufa stores are lower. If I've definitively hit this landmark of menopause then my estrogen problem, already a major challenge, just got much worse. Bringing back some bad old memories of low blood sugar, moods, aching, insomnia and all the rest. So now I'm aiming to raise progesterone with supps and coffee, sunlight, and eat what digests well, appeals. And feel better. Suggestions very welcome!

 

[SQu]

Some improvement in symptoms, thanks to progesterone. What incredible stuff. Also sun (overdid it though, sunburned) coffee (tolerance returned - but I'm having it cold to help minimize flushing). it is amazing though to watch yourself expand when estrogen is high, and everything fall apart. energy vanishes, Inflammation goes up (old injuries ache) mood terrible, overwhelmed, stressed. weight goes on, liver presumably struggles - nausea, light headedness, aversion to most foods, hypoglycemia symptoms - making it more important than ever not to skip meals just when you can least face them. Thank goodness for progesterone. Also clonidine.

 

[SQu]

Still improving. Very happy about that. after recent posts, and haidut's podcast, I'm inspired to address insulin resistance etc for weight loss, which should also lessen the estrogen problem. No or low starch is an established habit now, except during latest setback when a day or two of mashed potato might - probably did - help me ( I base this on improvement in digestion, energy, mood ) but very low fat has been difficult in the past. during my previous attempt,i did find out that calcium and b vitamins made me more comfortable, less anxious on very low fat. And I could take care to stay safely above the 1800 calories limit that lowered my metabolism. But coming out of a bad patch I'm reminded anew that every meal/ snack/ supplement that goes down well, and feels good, is another step out of the hole. Seeing as 2 eggs and Vietnamese coffee does this for me on a daily basis, I simply can't cut this ( high fat) breakfast.

 

[SQu]

A summary of this thread: failed low fat diet attempts 3- 4 years ago; and an update because it's going much better now. So this thread has an update and may be helpful to others. Because things are very different now and it's mostly that healing takes time and so does depleting pufa.

Problems with low fat were:

when I cut out fat as much as I could I felt anxious, restless, and craving.

Adding in minerals helped a lot but I still couldn't sustain this diet whereas now I have been doing it for 2.5 months quite comfortably, these symptoms are absent or transient, and 5.2kg lost.

Today for example I felt unwell and attribute it to a return to stressful daily life after the holidays. Too nauseous and dull headachey to be able to do anything but remind myself to eat to stop it getting worse

I felt this way often. Almost never anymore.

unsatisfied, restless, climbing the walls. Belly fat up a little before I even started experimenting further. Depressed, overwhelmed.

I think now, gut related.

I couldn't understand why I still wanted sweetness when I'd had lots of fruit, fructose, honey.

I need concentrated sugar too, too much fruit juice will water it down too much and send me looking for nougat.

less breathless and bloated. So that's great. Contributing to this is the addition of k2, the reintroduction of B3 and 1, methyl B12, taurine, mittir's slaked lime and vinegar. Progesterone cream.

No sense of bloat, much less breathless. Supplements: T3 (Tyronene for the past couple of weeks), progesterone, B1, B3, D, K, E, P5P, Mg Chloride, Taurine, 2mg ciproheptadine, occasional clonidine at bedtime if mind racing. Weekly liver, oysters from time to time.

For a while I had a lot of nougat too - really intense sweetness.

Still have cravings for intense sweetness fairly often, not as often as before, and if I don't satisfy the craving I will gain weight whereas if I do, I may lose weight, stay the same, or put on a little, not enough to lose ground. Still want nougat (I make it now), jelly, sometimes condensed milk, glace cherries. Concentrated sugar.

I also want fizzy drinks but not sweet ones

I have a fizzy bicarb drink with ice when particularly hot and it's the best most satisfying way to quench thirst in the heat.

I'm still avoiding starch because while I like nice bread and potatoes, and feel initially great, within hours I feel bad from it (dull, slow, fuzzy, sluggish and fatter next day. worse sleep

Can tolerate starch better. I have my own 24 hour fermented bread (any other kind is a recipe for gas and cramps),well cooked potato - mainly just those. Pasta puts weight on and so does rice.

Summary of what I think has got me to this point:
Sluggish liver + not using glucose + damaged digestion = fat gain, endotoxin, serotonin and estrogen when I added back sugar and calories.

I've given this much thought. Pufas could not have been too bad except that with lots of fat in the diet, even saturated, the pufa is going to add up anyway. Iron would have been high. I put on on a ton and I felt awful. Bloating, aching, aging, worse insomnia, worse constipation, worse pms.

I haven't lost more than a few ( welcome) pounds but I have improved how I feel - less aching, bloating , less pms, feel younger, better digestion, energy etc

All of these much better. Chronic constipation recently took a turn for the better, didn't need cascara. Improvements to long standing things like this come and go like the tide coming in until it settles at a new better level, and when I cut calories I wasn't surprised that I needed cascara again.

So digestion is my focus and I make sure to support it with coffee in the morning, carrot salad every afternoon, taurine after dinner and cascara before bed. I pay attention to any kind of gut pains and this protocol keeps me feeling well. I hesitate to mess with anything that might affect the gut. Without some of those things I'll get the odd twinge in the midriff (gall bladder I suspect) and very occasionally a feeling like a fist much lower down I think appendix area. I take this very seriously as my sister just had her appendix removed and my mom did too at around the same age.

Low fat + stress made me anxious

Not anymore, so I can carry on for the long time it is going to take me to lose the weight gently and sustainably and without health costs.

I'm avoiding fat as much as possible now, it's usually about 10% of calories or less, usually less than 20g, and loading up on the minerals and the vitamins may be the reason that I'm calmer on this low fat attempt than last time. Much calmer.

Can't believe how much I used to suffer, no wonder my attempts failed. I really felt so awful so often.
Don't need to add minerals beyond what's already in my diet and supplement list.
Fat: aiming for less than 10% calories, less than 20g.
Calories: I have cut them gradually to about 1600 - 1700 .

I tried dropping to approx. 1800 for a few days but so far it's just lowering temps. In spite of t3, b vits, coffee and caffeine

Not taking temps but checking fingertips stay warm.

ast night I woke with abdominal pain - not cramps - steady burning pain located not in the bowel I don't think, nor the stomach. Central, above the belly button, below the ribs. Small intestine? I got up and ate a bit of chocolate mousse which had gelatin in it. Didn't want much. Was followed not by diarrhoea but looseness. No cramping, griping, waves of nausea and cramps as I'd expect. Followed by steady faintness and nausea. about 7 hours after dinner. Seems like inflammation of a section of gut.
So this is not okay, to create a new nasty digestive issue out of the blue. I don't know why but my best guess is metabolism lowering in spite of added t3. My mantra with this is health first so I'm going to raise fat a bit

While I did establish that lots of minerals , probably calcium in particular will keep me free of anxiety on low fat lower calorie diet, I also got myself a new kind of gut pain for my troubles. So my metabolism took a hit. Not yet fixed, either.

Not happening anymore and if it did I'd stop.

doing what I need to to feel good, digest well, lower inflammation, and adrenalin, lower stress and sleep bette

Sleeping much better. Take Mgchloride, taurine after dinner, and 2 mg cypro heptadine plus sometimes a home-made version of oxidal. Clonidine if mind races, used to use this too often but it's occasional now.

If I don't feel good I'm not doing well.

Can't believe how unwell I felt at a time I thought I was already somewhat improved. So previously I had been even worse and still dieted then. Can't believe I even attempted weight loss so much too early on. No surprise it didn't work. But hindsight is perfect, right? At the time I thought I'd come a long way and the sad thing is, I had, so just how bad were things before? I'm horrified.

This has been a very bad patch in terms of energy, aching, mood

I had so many. What finally scared me off dieting and onto finding Peat was bad patches and migraines that were merging into a permanent state. And then? What would have been next?

By now, 4 years later, hopefully, pufa stores are lower.

Yes ... but 3 more years later.

Now I get why people think dieting is just discipline. Because if you don't feel so awful mentally and physically it's not hard to do this. It's effort in the sense of counting calories, weighing stuff, feeling a bit empty sometimes. But that's easy compared with battling with how awful you feel and getting poor results after all that.

Diet: varies, but this is typical: 1 egg, 1 slice homemade bread for breakfast. 2 coffees with two sugars and fat free milk. Lunch, 2 slices homemade bread with tomato, maybe a bit of low fat cheese (to begin with I made sure to add a bit of fat to each meal to stop blood sugar swings but don't seem to need it so much anymore); carrot salad with olive oil. Supper will be small piece of lean meat with lots of cooked veg, milk at bedside for night time wake ups (still have about 2 a night of those)

Thanks for reading if you got all the way through and maybe this will help someone. I'll update shortly (and shorter).

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Awesome post. I can say that full days of sugar from fruit+juice, nonfat yogurt, other lean protein, and tubers for glucose (gymbro here) leave me feeling awesome. Grains... not quite. Jealous of the home made bread though.

That said, it all feels so much better with a bit of a dopamine hit: some cheese and a couple squares of dark chocolate pre-bed. Perfect sleep = better days.

I’m experimenting with MCT oil right now. Just ordered some.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for reading if you got all the way through and maybe this will help someone. I'll update shortly (and shorter).

Thanks for the detailed update! I'm glad you are feeling much better. It's so true when you said healing takes time.

 

[LUH 3417]

A summary of this thread: failed low fat diet attempts 3- 4 years ago; and an update because it's going much better now. So this thread has an update and may be helpful to others. Because things are very different now and it's mostly that healing takes time and so does depleting pufa.

Problems with low fat were:

Adding in minerals helped a lot but I still couldn't sustain this diet whereas now I have been doing it for 2.5 months quite comfortably, these symptoms are absent or transient, and 5.2kg lost.



I felt this way often. Almost never anymore.



I think now, gut related.



I need concentrated sugar too, too much fruit juice will water it down too much and send me looking for nougat.



No sense of bloat, much less breathless. Supplements: T3 (Tyronene for the past couple of weeks), progesterone, B1, B3, D, K, E, P5P, Mg Chloride, Taurine, 2mg ciproheptadine, occasional clonidine at bedtime if mind racing. Weekly liver, oysters from time to time.



Still have cravings for intense sweetness fairly often, not as often as before, and if I don't satisfy the craving I will gain weight whereas if I do, I may lose weight, stay the same, or put on a little, not enough to lose ground. Still want nougat (I make it now), jelly, sometimes condensed milk, glace cherries. Concentrated sugar.



I have a fizzy bicarb drink with ice when particularly hot and it's the best most satisfying way to quench thirst in the heat.



Can tolerate starch better. I have my own 24 hour fermented bread (any other kind is a recipe for gas and cramps),well cooked potato - mainly just those. Pasta puts weight on and so does rice.


All of these much better. Chronic constipation recently took a turn for the better, didn't need cascara. Improvements to long standing things like this come and go like the tide coming in until it settles at a new better level, and when I cut calories I wasn't surprised that I needed cascara again.

So digestion is my focus and I make sure to support it with coffee in the morning, carrot salad every afternoon, taurine after dinner and cascara before bed. I pay attention to any kind of gut pains and this protocol keeps me feeling well. I hesitate to mess with anything that might affect the gut. Without some of those things I'll get the odd twinge in the midriff (gall bladder I suspect) and very occasionally a feeling like a fist much lower down I think appendix area. I take this very seriously as my sister just had her appendix removed and my mom did too at around the same age.



Not anymore, so I can carry on for the long time it is going to take me to lose the weight gently and sustainably and without health costs.


Can't believe how much I used to suffer, no wonder my attempts failed. I really felt so awful so often.
Don't need to add minerals beyond what's already in my diet and supplement list.
Fat: aiming for less than 10% calories, less than 20g.
Calories: I have cut them gradually to about 1600 - 1700 .



Not taking temps but checking fingertips stay warm.





Not happening anymore and if it did I'd stop.



Sleeping much better. Take Mgchloride, taurine after dinner, and 2 mg cypro heptadine plus sometimes a home-made version of oxidal. Clonidine if mind races, used to use this too often but it's occasional now.



Can't believe how unwell I felt at a time I thought I was already somewhat improved. So previously I had been even worse and still dieted then. Can't believe I even attempted weight loss so much too early on. No surprise it didn't work. But hindsight is perfect, right? At the time I thought I'd come a long way and the sad thing is, I had, so just how bad were things before? I'm horrified.



I had so many. What finally scared me off dieting and onto finding Peat was bad patches and migraines that were merging into a permanent state. And then? What would have been next?



Yes ... but 3 more years later.

Now I get why people think dieting is just discipline. Because if you don't feel so awful mentally and physically it's not hard to do this. It's effort in the sense of counting calories, weighing stuff, feeling a bit empty sometimes. But that's easy compared with battling with how awful you feel and getting poor results after all that.

Diet: varies, but this is typical: 1 egg, 1 slice homemade bread for breakfast. 2 coffees with two sugars and fat free milk. Lunch, 2 slices homemade bread with tomato, maybe a bit of low fat cheese (to begin with I made sure to add a bit of fat to each meal to stop blood sugar swings but don't seem to need it so much anymore); carrot salad with olive oil. Supper will be small piece of lean meat with lots of cooked veg, milk at bedside for night time wake ups (still have about 2 a night of those)

Thanks for reading if you got all the way through and maybe this will help someone. I'll update shortly (and shorter).

Could you post your bread recipe?