Metabolic Advantage / Fat Free / Foods / Athlete

superhuman

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Hello

I have been doing fat free diet like RP talks about in the Burr article and also i know people here on the forum has done it.

There are some questions that has arrived lately and it is in regards to the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. Like what have people experience in terms of maintenance of calorie intake without gaining fat or able to eat more calories and drop fat, temp, pulse and all those things.

Then it is in regards to food choices on a fat free diet. I live in North so its very limited what good foods i can get on a fat free diet, especially if i want to make it starch free as much as possible.

My food choices quick becomes skimmed milk, grapes, dates, oranges, canned pineapples and sweet candy.

When it comes to taste, all those foods tastes great, candy ofc but that packs on calories real fast.

When it comes to starch i dont like potatoes and rice. Its just to blend and boring and tasteless.

If i use fat free bread so white bread etc that has no oils or whole wheat that contains fat i can put jam,honey or sugar on it and it tastes wonderful. That also tend to pound on calories really fast since its not super satisfying.

Then you have the other option of taking a more modest fat approach which includes just about everything in regards to RP world but then again the attention to calories and everything i guess have to be more on point since there is so much good food to choose from and its easy to over eat.

So i was wondering in terms of the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. What have you notice, is it worth it in terms of calories vs calories on a regular even out macro setting ? i currently also want to drop some more fat on my body.

Also in terms of pulse temp, overall health which include hormonal etc etc

Im also an athlete so i workout with weights and all that jazz

@tca300 @TubZy @max219 @DaveFoster @Dan Wich @haidut @Westside PUFAs @Such_Saturation @EIRE24 @tyw I probably forgot a whole lot of people also but thats of you i remember have been discussing and trying it out.
 

Wagner83

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Hello

When it comes to starch i dont like potatoes and rice. Its just to blend and boring and tasteless.


So i was wondering in terms of the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. What have you notice, is it worth it in terms of calories vs calories on a regular even out macro setting ? i currently also want to drop some more fat on my body.


In this thread https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/studies-on-sucrose-and-starch.16400/, the first study I posted shows that for 14 days a high starch diet leads to weight and fat loss when a high sucrose or high fat diet do not.

There are different kinds of rice, if it's well cooked with fresh tomato sauce (or homemade ketchup) , a teaspoon of olive oil , salt and even some spices it tastes very nice. As for potatoes you could add your milk to them to make a sort of mashed potatoes and see how it works.

Going both fat free and starch free is a huge burden (e.g. if you have the opportunity to eat with friends and family).
 
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superhuman

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@Wagner83 sure but the reason high starch diet lost weight/fat loss was because they ate 13% and 12% less kcals than the other two groups. So this does not solve anything.

Also they did not say how the diets where composed either which further questions the whole thing
 

EIRE24

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@Wagner83 sure but the reason high starch diet lost weight/fat loss was because they ate 13% and 12% less kcals than the other two groups. So this does not solve anything.

Also they did not say how the diets where composed either which further questions the whole thing
Still an affective strategy none the less. If they ate less without a noticeable fall in metabolism I dont see what the problem is. After all we are on about fat loss here?
 
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superhuman

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@EIRE24 that is true but that want be the case with me so thats why im wondering about the "metabolic advantage" of fat free diet and not the eating less part. Sure i would eat less if i jut ate some dried starch or something, but it would taste like ***t. The same can be said for only eating greens and all that which would make me eat way less etc etc. So caloric reduction will always work but that want automatically happen if i eat high starch/peat diet unless i try to and are conscious about it
 

EIRE24

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Well, I do eat lots of starch and I find if I gravitate towards a diet of mainly potatoes and lean proteins I lose a lot of weight. I also feel good and still feel warm and satiated with lots of energy. Potatoes are an awesome food in my opinion. It is ultimately up to you, if the diet doesnt sound appealing do not do it but you can add condiments to starch to make them tastier
 
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tca300

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I dont care for fatty foods. Also adding fat to foods increases the density of calories, which meals less volume can be consumed in regards to calories. Would I rather have 1 tablespoon of tastless sludge, or a good sized orange ( or cup of oj ), to me thats a no brainer.
I dont like starch, its doesnt register as food to me anymore, to me its gross sticky, mushy slopp. Fat and starch both have something in common, by themselves they are gross, tastless and or non appetizing without additional things with them, what would cheese taste like without salt, or a plain potato etc... and maybe some like them still, and thats cool, but its not for me.
I cant tell you that there is a metabolic advantage, except the more fat you eat the quicker you will accumulate PUFA, simply because being in a caloric deficit indefinitely to keep PUFA burning as fuel has the long term consequence of death from starvation lol.
My endothelial function is way better on 25 grams of fat per day or less, more sugar is available for cells that prefer it, and if you need fat, it can be synthesized from sugar, while avoiding plant PUFA'S, and making your own ( mead acid ) which isn't harmful like the others.
It seems to me eating more food with the same amount of calories as less food makes weight loss easier, also its much easier to store dietary fat than it is to make your own from sugar and protein, then store it.
I have had heart issues since my early teens and sugar, calcium, and protein seem to be the main dietary substances that help with that, fat exacerbates it.
So to sum it up Im interested in accumulating PUFA as slow as possible, as well as keeping my intake as low as possible.
I dont like starch, I see it as an emergency, starvation food.
I can make safe fats myself without the need of eating them and being able to avoid harmful fats ( unless hydrogenated coconut oil or mct is used, but once again, using that in place of other foods to keep calories under control doesnt make sense to me personally and what I want to eat ).
It is just much easier to lose fat/stay lean on low fat. I also just feel really good ( for me personally ).
Its been said that glucose creates more co2 than fat, and sucrose generates more than glucose, if co2 is a factor for you. Fructose specifically is good for lowering phosphorous, retaining minerals, improving thyroid status, improving glucose utilization, modulation of insulin, etc...
It takes time and patience, but maybe experamenting more with different foods, and macronutrient ratios, and seeing which one makes you feel best personally is warranted. Unless you already know that is.
 
D

Deleted member 5487

Guest
Hello

I have been doing fat free diet like RP talks about in the Burr article and also i know people here on the forum has done it.

There are some questions that has arrived lately and it is in regards to the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. Like what have people experience in terms of maintenance of calorie intake without gaining fat or able to eat more calories and drop fat, temp, pulse and all those things.

Then it is in regards to food choices on a fat free diet. I live in North so its very limited what good foods i can get on a fat free diet, especially if i want to make it starch free as much as possible.

My food choices quick becomes skimmed milk, grapes, dates, oranges, canned pineapples and sweet candy.

When it comes to taste, all those foods tastes great, candy ofc but that packs on calories real fast.

When it comes to starch i dont like potatoes and rice. Its just to blend and boring and tasteless.

If i use fat free bread so white bread etc that has no oils or whole wheat that contains fat i can put jam,honey or sugar on it and it tastes wonderful. That also tend to pound on calories really fast since its not super satisfying.

Then you have the other option of taking a more modest fat approach which includes just about everything in regards to RP world but then again the attention to calories and everything i guess have to be more on point since there is so much good food to choose from and its easy to over eat.

So i was wondering in terms of the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. What have you notice, is it worth it in terms of calories vs calories on a regular even out macro setting ? i currently also want to drop some more fat on my body.

Also in terms of pulse temp, overall health which include hormonal etc etc

Im also an athlete so i workout with weights and all that jazz

@tca300 @TubZy @max219 @DaveFoster @Dan Wich @haidut @Westside PUFAs @Such_Saturation @EIRE24 @tyw I probably forgot a whole lot of people also but thats of you i remember have been discussing and trying it out.


I believe Haidut said that a maximum of 500g of sugar can be consumed without being converted to fat. Lowering cortisol and adrenalin should be of utmost priority both directly lead to fat gain.

Animal stressed(Food scarcity)= Store calories, lower metavolic rate.

Drop that fat, rely on sugar/Starch.

I have to eat starch. Even with 550g of sugar I wake up tired and empty 3 potatos at night makes a massive difference.

1 gallon Milk with alot honey/gelatin
Monster energy drink
10 gg whites
3 egg yolks
Banana
Potatos
Liver/oyster once a week
Asprin occasionally
Creatine

I don't worry about calories. I'm probably eating 3.5k but lifting a ton of heavy weights and its going to my muscles.

Fat is burned by the muscles at rest. So with low cortisol its possible to drop fat from liver/body while eating hundreds of grams of sugar/protein.

After a month on ray peat. My liver flushed the fat the middle of my core shrink wrapped and my V shape changed dramatically.
 

Wagner83

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@Wagner83 sure but the reason high starch diet lost weight/fat loss was because they ate 13% and 12% less kcals than the other two groups. So this does not solve anything.

Also they did not say how the diets where composed either which further questions the whole thing
Righ so you are the one making this guess, the point is on a sucrose diet they did not lose fat mass, on a high starch (= high carb/high clucose) diet based on satiety they did. If you want to lose weight it is an option.

@EIRE24 that is true but that want be the case with me so thats why im wondering about the "metabolic advantage" of fat free diet and not the eating less part. Sure i would eat less if i jut ate some dried starch or something, but it would taste like ***t. The same can be said for only eating greens and all that which would make me eat way less etc etc. So caloric reduction will always work but that want automatically happen if i eat high starch/peat diet unless i try to and are conscious about it
I don't get your point of "starch" taste like ***t, it's nonsense, you should cook it properly and add a sauce , spices, condiments to enhance the taste, it can taste awesome . Unripe oranges taste like ******* crap , are full of fibers , and lack sugar and vitamins, apples are the most sprayed with pesticides and they are very rarely ripe when picked, you can cook them but it's a starchy fruit. I tried to go the dates route and it became more and more disgusting over time, at some point I wanted to throw up thinking about eating more of them. How do the hormones and sugar in milk affect you ? It does give me acne, more sebum production and hair loss, quite a few have reported lowered sex drive too.
 
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EIRE24

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Righ so you are the one making this guess, the point is on a sucrose diet they did not lose fat mass, on a high starch (= high carb/high clucose) diet based on satiety they did. If you want to lose weight it is an option.


I don't get your point of "starch" taste like ***t, it's nonsense, you should cook it properly and add a sauce , spices, condiments to enhance the taste, it can taste awesome . Unripe oranges taste like ******* crap , are full of fibers , and lack sugar and vitamins, apples are the most sprayed with pesticides and they are very rarely ripe when picked, you can cook them but it's a starchy fruit. I tried to go the dates route and it became more and more disgusting over time, at some point I wanted to throw up thinking about eating more of them. How do the hormones and sugar in milk affect you ? It does give me acne, more sebum production and hair loss, quite a few have reported lowered sex drive too.
And you dont get this from starch, no? I agree with what you are saying
 
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tca300

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Lol here comes the starch cult. Say you dont personally like starch and it offends them. Kinda strange.
I think the mice ate less as a response to unappetizing food. I do the same.
 
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superhuman

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@tca300 i agree with everything you said above. You have to combine fat and starch w sugar, spices to make it taste good.

But in terms of yourself then and kcal burn on fat free or low fat. Did it increase the metabolic rate like Burr and RP talk about. Co2 production should be higher from sucrose and fructose so that means it should result in that. RP also mention in one of his sugar articles that mice could eat 50% more kcals without weight gain when coming from sucrose
 
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superhuman

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@Wagner83 good fruit taste good so i pick mine carefully.

Sure starch can be more enyoable if you add spices etc but it taste like pure paper. Go 2 weeks without it and try it and you will notice yourself.

Anyway thats not the discussion. Fat free and metabolic advantage and all that and that study does not prove that
 

Dan W

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There are some questions that has arrived lately and it is in regards to the metabolic advantage of a fat free diet. Like what have people experience in terms of maintenance of calorie intake without gaining fat or able to eat more calories and drop fat, temp, pulse and all those things.
I'm doing ~10-15% fat, so my experience might not be completely relevant. But I've found it effective for bodyfat loss, though I can't compare for any metabolic advantage because I haven't tracked calories consistently.

I've noticed a rise in waking temps and a possible decline in after-breakfast temps. I'll see if they normalize once I bump up the calories more.
 
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tca300

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@superhuman I usually eat between 2400-2700 kcals per day, and have never noticed any weight gain when I add several hundred calories of fruit/juice, I however cannot say the same about adding several hundred calories of coconut oil, butter, or higher fat milk. Also I notice the exhaled air out my nose is much hotter when I eat more sugar and less fat. I can say for myself anyways, that since lowering fat ( hydrogenated coconut oil, higher fat content milk, butter, etc ) I can eat more and not gain any fat, also my water retention goes down with lower fat intake.
Thats my experience anyways.
 
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superhuman

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@Dan Wich get you. Better than nothing i guess :)

@tca300 thats cool. But what are your staples since it seems you have alot of fluid like milk, oj etc which also is way less satiating than eating/chewing something esp w fiber and all that also
 

max219

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I didn't read the thread yet, but I'll comment on my experience. I've been eating a low fat diet for 3 years now, less than 20 grams for about half of each year on and off, and averaging about 30-40 grams the other half of the year. I find my metabolism improves each year, and I can eat higher calories without gaining fat. I also can lose fat easily, especially when training hard. This past winter was the warmest I can remember feeling. Last summer I also went a month or so with a higher fat intake (50-60 grams for a few weeks on and off) while staying lean.

My diet is always 3500-4200 cals daily, unless I am trying to go really low body fat I'll eat 3000-3500. I eat low starch, so my diet is basically honey, variety of ripe fruit, juice, nonfat greek yogurt, occasional potatoes and plantains, shellfish, coconut water, coffee. If I ever want some fat, I'll use a little coconut oil. I use a lot of salt.

I am very active however, working a physical job and working out (calisthenics/gymnastics) often. I also try to get as much sunlight as possible when vitamin D is available. Four years ago I would gain fat on 3000 calories and was always cold and urinated day and night. I had wrecked my metabolism with years of competitive long distance running and fasting/low carb.

I find a low fat diet is very helpful for increasing metabolism and overall health. I also believe having a moderate amount of saturated fat is also healthy when metabolism is functioning well. Maybe one day I will experiment with a moderate (60ish grams) amount of saturated fat, but I don't really desire eating much fat now a days. Some cheese or ice cream or chocolate once in a while seems to be good enough. I also am not sure if I can get away with 4000 calories with a higher saturated fat intake without gaining fat.
 

Wagner83

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Lol here comes the starch cult. Say you dont personally like starch and it offends them. Kinda strange.
I think the mice ate less as a response to unappetizing food. I do the same.

I don't know what you're talking about, I don't care if one likes starch but ditching it because it tastes bad on its own or because of theoretical ideas is a bit stupid inmo, nothing wrong with personal experiment and making decisions. People lose fat on fat free diet and high starch diet, so if you're looking for weight loss starch does not need to be taken out .

@Wagner83 good fruit taste good so i pick mine carefully.

Sure starch can be more enyoable if you add spices etc but it taste like pure paper. Go 2 weeks without it and try it and you will notice yourself.

Anyway thats not the discussion. Fat free and metabolic advantage and all that and that study does not prove that

I went 3 weeks and after some time got plenty of problems each time I drank sucrose/fructose.
 

Tenacity

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I've been thinking about fat gain and macronutrients recently. In Do Carbohydrates Turn Into Fat? No the image posted indicated that 25% of the energy gained by carbohydrate in an energy excess is used to convert the carbohydrate into fat. In theory, that means you can eat more energy and not gain weight so long as you increase carbohydrates and decrease fat in a certain proportion.

So let's say you start with a diet of 600/60/140 grams of carbs/fat/protein respectively. That would represent a caloric intake of 3500kcal.

Let's say you reduced fat by 20g. That represents a 180kcal reduction, which we can get back by adding 45g of carbohydrate. But, if we consider the above effect, that 25% of carbohydrate energy at a surplus is used and not stored, then we could in theory add 56g of carbohydrate to make up for the loss of 20g fat.

Essentially, what I'm saying is:

600/60/140 (3500kcal) represents the same amount of fat storage (if that were a surplus) as:
656/40/140 (3544kcal).

In short the less fat you eat, the more carbohydrates you can eat (energetically speaking) without gaining weight. Is this conclusion correct? @haidut @Westside PUFAs

If a 600/60/140 (3500kcal) diet represented a calorie maintenance level for a person (no weight gained or lost), then on a fat free diet you could increase carbohydrates by 168g (so 768g total), which would increase total energy intake by 132 calories. So not a lot really, but it's something - certainly a 'metabolic advantage'.

I currently eat around 40g of fat a day, and about 650g of carbohydrate. I don't seem to be getting fatter, although my weight is increasing (which I'd presume to be lean mass).
 
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