High fat / moderate carb experiment

[stargazer1111]

Not to sound dismissive, but how you feel is hardly an indicator of whether your diet is healthy, long term. I don't think I am alone when I say that Ive felt great on a low carb, even a ketoginic diet... Until I didn't feel great anymore.

I know this is a super old thread, but this is relevant to my situation.

I have gotten skinny numerous ways over the last 20 years. Fasting, low-fat, low-carb, low-calorie, exercise. Every single time I get skinny, I get sick. Cold, tired, muscle pain, memory problems, digestive problems. I feel like an 80 year old. The only time I feel like a normal human being is when I am overweight.

There are two times in the last 20 years during which I felt good. 4 years ago and now. Both times involved eating large amounts of sugar, large amounts of dairy fat, and moderately high intakes of protein. Whole milk with sugar, fatty beef, fruit juice, and soda.

Of course, both times also involved me being fairly overweight and having pre-diabetic fasting blood sugar numbers (100-110 fasting glucose).

I am at a point now where I have to accept that I must eat what makes me feel good and stop worrying about how I look or theoretical, scientific arguments about how my diet is going to cause a heart attack or type 2 diabetes.

Even if this diet kills me early, it's not worth being alive with the quality of life I have when I don't eat this way.

Just my opinion.

 

[Maljam]

I know this is a super old thread, but this is relevant to my situation.

I have gotten skinny numerous ways over the last 20 years. Fasting, low-fat, low-carb, low-calorie, exercise. Every single time I get skinny, I get sick. Cold, tired, muscle pain, memory problems, digestive problems. I feel like an 80 year old. The only time I feel like a normal human being is when I am overweight.

There are two times in the last 20 years during which I felt good. 4 years ago and now. Both times involved eating large amounts of sugar, large amounts of dairy fat, and moderately high intakes of protein. Whole milk with sugar, fatty beef, fruit juice, and soda.

Of course, both times also involved me being fairly overweight and having pre-diabetic fasting blood sugar numbers (100-110 fasting glucose).

I am at a point now where I have to accept that I must eat what makes me feel good and stop worrying about how I look or theoretical, scientific arguments about how my diet is going to cause a heart attack or type 2 diabetes.

Even if this diet kills me early, it's not worth being alive with the quality of life I have when I don't eat this way.

Just my opinion.

Have you tried not eating tons of sugar but keeping the rest of it? What happens to your blood sugar then? I know it is against the meaning of your post, but continuing to eat a diet that is giving you pre diabetic blood sugar levels sounds like something you are going to regret.

 

[stargazer1111]

Have you tried not eating tons of sugar but keeping the rest of it? What happens to your blood sugar then? I know it is against the meaning of your post, but continuing to eat a diet that is giving you pre diabetic blood sugar levels sounds like something you are going to regret.

Sugar is critical. Without it, it becomes basically a ketogenic diet and ketogenic diets make me sicker than any other. I have to have sugar. It really helps with stress.

I keep an eye on the blood glucose with a meter. If it jumps too high, I will reconsider.

 

[Jam]

Sugar is critical. Without it, it becomes basically a ketogenic diet and ketogenic diets make me sicker than any other. I have to have sugar. It really helps with stress.

I keep an eye on the blood glucose with a meter. If it jumps too high, I will reconsider.

Macros? And a breakdown of types of fat and carbs, thanks!

 

[stargazer1111]

Macros? And a breakdown of types of fat and carbs, thanks!

Whole milk + Sugar = 8-9 glasses of milk each with 3 tablespoons of sugar and 1/4 teaspoon of salt.

2-3 glasses of Apple juice

1-2 Sodas

Fatty beef once or twice per day. It's hard to measure this because it depends on the cut of meat.

Occasionally chicken breast when I want some more protein but not more fat but this is rare.

We're probably talking about:

3500 calories

110 grams of fat (5-6 grams of PUFA)

525 grams of carbs (100 of which is lactose from the milk),

100 or so grams of protein

I realize most people, even on the Ray Peat forum, think this is pure poison. But, it's the only way of eating that allows me to function like a normal person. Any other way of eating leaves me essentially incapacitated to the point at which it's difficult just to get out of bed.

20 years of trying different ways of eating has forced me to realize that I cannot continue trying to get "healthy" in the conventional sense.

 

[Maljam]

Whole milk + Sugar = 8-9 glasses of milk each with 3 tablespoons of sugar and 1/4 teaspoon of salt.

2-3 glasses of Apple juice

1-2 Sodas

Fatty beef once or twice per day. It's hard to measure this because it depends on the cut of meat.

Occasionally chicken breast when I want some more protein but not more fat but this is rare.

We're probably talking about:

3500 calories

110 grams of fat (5-6 grams of PUFA)

525 grams of carbs (100 of which is lactose from the milk),

100 or so grams of protein

I realize most people, even on the Ray Peat forum, think this is pure poison. But, it's the only way of eating that allows me to function like a normal person. Any other way of eating leaves me essentially incapacitated to the point at which it's difficult just to get out of bed.

20 years of trying different ways of eating has forced me to realize that I cannot continue trying to get "healthy" in the conventional sense.

400 grams of white sugar a day is going to destroy your health, 100%.

100 grams of carbs isn't a ketogenic diet.

 

[stargazer1111]

400 grams of white sugar a day is going to destroy your health, 100%.

100 grams of carbs isn't a ketogenic diet.

Walter Kempner and others have demonstrated that white sugar is not harmful.

100 grams of carbs is low enough to make me ill the way ketogenic diets do.

 

[Maljam]

Walter Kempner and others have demonstrated that white sugar is not harmful.

100 grams of carbs is low enough to make me ill the way ketogenic diets do.

I would argue your fasting blood sugar levels disagree.

 

[stargazer1111]

I would argue your fasting blood sugar levels disagree.

My fasting blood sugar levels right now are in the mid-80's. They reached 100-110 4 years ago but have not done so this time. At least not yet.

Also, blood glucose is based on a bell curve. A healthy blood sugar varies from person to person. Some people naturally have lower glucose levels while others have slightly higher ones. My blood sugar has never gone in the diabetic range and my post meal glucose numbers at the 1-hr level are never higher than 120. By 2 hours they are back in the mid-80's again.

 

[Jam]

I know this is a super old thread, but this is relevant to my situation.

I have gotten skinny numerous ways over the last 20 years. Fasting, low-fat, low-carb, low-calorie, exercise. Every single time I get skinny, I get sick. Cold, tired, muscle pain, memory problems, digestive problems. I feel like an 80 year old. The only time I feel like a normal human being is when I am overweight.

There are two times in the last 20 years during which I felt good. 4 years ago and now. Both times involved eating large amounts of sugar, large amounts of dairy fat, and moderately high intakes of protein. Whole milk with sugar, fatty beef, fruit juice, and soda.

Of course, both times also involved me being fairly overweight and having pre-diabetic fasting blood sugar numbers (100-110 fasting glucose).

I am at a point now where I have to accept that I must eat what makes me feel good and stop worrying about how I look or theoretical, scientific arguments about how my diet is going to cause a heart attack or type 2 diabetes.

Even if this diet kills me early, it's not worth being alive with the quality of life I have when I don't eat this way.

Just my opinion.

When you tried low carb, was that with high saturated fat (and low PUFA)? Were you getting enough calories?

Perhaps you felt that bad when dieting because you were undereating and thus, as normally happens, became hypothyroid as a consequence. Then, when you got back to feeding yourself enough calories, you felt much better as your metabolism picked up, but then went overboard with the sugar and became overweight and pre-diabetic. Avoid fasting at all costs.

Why no starch? In my opinion, you need to cut way way down on the sugar and either increase saturated fat or starch. But pushing both fat, even if highly saturated, and refined sugar / soft drinks like that is a recipe for metabolic disaster.

(btw, 1 cup of creme fraiche or heavy cream + 1 teaspoon of honey (or sugar if you must) can replace 3 cups of milk + 9 tablespoons of sugar. I personally wouldn't add the honey to the cream as it is sweet enough for me. Same calories, much higher satiety due to the dollops of stearic acid, much lower insulin response, increased uncoupling, weight loss... One cup of that and I dare you to not feel satisfied for hours. Just sayin'....)

 

[Jam]

Walter Kempner and others have demonstrated that white sugar is not harmful.

Like anything, even water, white sugar is not harmful when not in excess, no. But when it makes up a good chunk of your daily calories, not so harmless anymore... white sugar contains zero nutrients. That's 27 tablespoons you're adding to your diet daily.

 

[stargazer1111]

When you tried low carb, was that with high saturated fat (and low PUFA)? Were you getting enough calories?

Perhaps you felt that bad when dieting because you were undereating and thus, as normally happens, became hypothyroid as a consequence. Then, when you got back to feeding yourself enough calories, you felt much better as your metabolism picked up, but then went overboard with the sugar and became overweight and pre-diabetic. Avoid fasting at all costs.

Why no starch? In my opinion, you need to cut way way down on the sugar and either increase saturated fat or starch. But pushing both fat, even if highly saturated, and refined sugar / soft drinks like that is a recipe for metabolic disaster.

(btw, 1 cup of creme fraiche or heavy cream + 1 teaspoon of honey (or sugar if you must) can replace 3 cups of milk + 9 tablespoons of sugar. I personally wouldn't add the honey to the cream as it is sweet enough for me. Same calories, much higher satiety due to the dollops of stearic acid, much lower insulin response, increased uncoupling, weight loss... One cup of that and I dare you to not feel satisfied for hours. Just sayin'....)

The low carb diet was red meat and clarified butter. The PUFA intake was right around 5-6 grams per day. Quite low.

Starch of any kind makes me sick. I can't digest it. Gluten-containing starches and corn are the worst, but all forms of starch make me sick. Also, starch actually does throw my blood glucose out of whack. Starch raises it much more than sugar (up to 150-160) and causes hypoglycemic lows that go down into the low 40's within an hour or two of eating. With sugar, my blood glucose only goes up to about 120 and it gently comes down into the 80's again where it stays until I eat again.

I don't mean this in an offensive way, but people are assuming on this thread that I am looking to change something. I am not. I feel great and this is the only way of eating that gets me to that place.

It's funny how the only thing that works for me is exactly what the whole world claims is going to kill me. I find that quite amusing. I'm not saying that to be abrasive, I just legitimately think it's funny that all the ways of eating that certain experts or groups of people claim to be healthy make me ill and the one way of eating that everyone across the board claims is going to kill me makes me feel great.

 

[stargazer1111]

Like anything, even water, white sugar is not harmful when not in excess, no. But when it makes up a good chunk of your daily calories, not so harmless anymore... white sugar contains zero nutrients. That's 27 tablespoons you're adding to your diet daily.

The Kempner diet fed patients 100-400 grams of white table sugar daily. That's up to 33 and 1/3 tablespoons per day.

Sure, it was an ultra low fat diet. But, it proves that a diet containing copious amounts of white sugar is not harmful.

 

[Jam]

It's funny how the only thing that works for me is exactly what the whole world claims is going to kill me. I find that quite amusing. I'm not saying that to be abrasive, I just legitimately think it's funny that all the ways of eating that certain experts or groups of people claim to be healthy make me ill and the one way of eating that everyone across the board claims is going to kill me makes me feel great.

We're in the same boat man, just on opposite ends of it. Don't think for a second that people don't view me as some kind of freak eating all that "artery-clogging" butter, creme fraiche, cream, and beef. But I am not overweight, while most of them are. I am also not pre-diabetic, while most of them are that too. Who's the joke on?

 

[stargazer1111]

We're in the same boat man, just on opposite ends of it. Don't think for a second that people don't view me as some kind of freak eating all that "artery-clogging" butter, creme fraiche, cream, and beef. But I am not overweight, while most of them are. I am also not pre-diabetic, while most of them are that too. Who's the joke on?

I've come to the conclusion that there is no one diet for everyone and that people need to stop listening to "experts."

As a biomedical scientist myself, nutrition science is garbage. It's barely science at this point. I've stopped basing my dietary choices on the literature or on experts and go based on how I feel (which I realize is ironic considering I am a scientist).

I think my scientific training contributed to this position. I realize how bad a lot of the studies are. We take courses on it in grad school, actually. So many of the papers in the top tier journals are pure garbage. They're either flat out fabricated or so poorly done that nobody can reproduce the results. Especially nutrition papers.

 

[Jam]

The low carb diet was red meat and clarified butter. The PUFA intake was right around 5-6 grams per day. Quite low.

This sounds like a carnivore diet to me. Doesn't surprise me you didn't feel so well on it.

 

[stargazer1111]

This sounds like a carnivore diet to me. Doesn't surprise me you didn't feel so well on it.

No joke. It was the worst of the diets I tried over the years.

 

[Maljam]

The Kempner diet fed patients 100-400 grams of white table sugar daily. That's up to 33 and 1/3 tablespoons per day.

Sure, it was an ultra low fat diet. But, it proves that a diet containing copious amounts of white sugar is not harmful.

Kempners diets were intervention diets, this doesn't prove that eating a ton of sugar is not harmful. Just because an intervention diet improves a condition doesn't mean it will be any good long term. Kempners dieters weren't on the diets for life, were they? Some people fast and improve various issues, if they continue not to eat anything for the rest of their lives, they will be dead before long.

Kempner also allegedly beat his patients and one woman said he kept her as a sort of sex slave.

 

[Maljam]

The low carb diet was red meat and clarified butter. The PUFA intake was right around 5-6 grams per day. Quite low.

Have you considered a low carb diet that is more than just a single type of meat and butter? It seems a bit strange to say you have tried a low carb diet and say its no good when you were eating 1 meat and a condiment basically. You can eat a low carb diet and varied diet.

 

[stargazer1111]

Kempners diets were intervention diets, this doesn't prove that eating a ton of sugar is not harmful. Just because an intervention diet improves a condition doesn't mean it will be any good long term. Kempners dieters weren't on the diets for life, were they? Some people fast and improve various issues, if they continue not to eat anything for the rest of their lives, they will be dead before long.

Kempner also allegedly beat his patients and one woman said he kept her as a sort of sex slave.

Yes it does. Patients got lean, reversed atherosclerosis, reversed type 2 diabetes, reversed severe hypertension, and reversed severe kidney disease. If the sugar was harmful, these metabolic conditions would not have reversed.

Him beating his patients is irrelevant to the efficacy of the diet. He beat them because the diet wasn't pallatable and they wouldn't stick to it.

Your statements about what would happen "for the rest of their lives" is just an assumption.