Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

[jyb]

Do you add any sugar or salt to the cream? And do you eat it all by itself?

Depends what I use it for, can be part of a meal or on its own. If it's good cream (I like thick double cream from Jersey cows), then I find it delicious on its own (it's similar to eating a yogurt).

 

[Zachs]

Zachs, what did you eat during that time frame? I've read that too much liquid can be problematic for a hypo person and I bloat and gain weight when I eat starches. So if you were hypo, I'm curious if you were able to drink liquids and eat starch? Because going zero fat sounds like a diet with quite a bit of liquid and starches....

Not a ton of liquid but definitely some. I ate mainly white flesh sweet potatoes, rice and rice noodles, fat free milk and dried fruit (red bananas and mango). Also some fresh fruit like citrus and bananas. Added a lot of sugar onto and in things and ate a good bit of veg, mainly leafy greens, carrots and broccoli.

 

[uhnjoo]

Milk fat is high in IGF. Lactose is highly insulemic, and so is whey. Insulin spiking make you tend to store everything in your meal rather than burn it. Lactose-free skim milk should help alot.

However, combining protein and carbs has a synergistic effect on insulin spiking, which is reduced by fat, and I think skim milk has an even higher insulin index.

Insulin index is something everyone here should become acquainted with.

 

[tara]

Milk and dairy has so much nutrition in it, and I am at a loss at how I would replace it in my diet....if I cut out all dairy, cow or goat or otherwise, for a month or so, what would I replace it with?

I imagine that calcium in some form would be important?

Pure cream shouldn't affect blood glucose nor insulin.

Why would all that cream - or any dairy fat or other long-chain fats - not play into the Randle seesaw? More fat available > slowed sugar oxidation > increased time for blood glucose to be disposed, apparent increased need for insulin?
I think the shorter chain length in coconut oil is part of what distinguishes it.

 

[jyb]

I imagine that calcium in some form would be important?


Why would all that cream - or any dairy fat or other long-chain fats - not play into the Randle seesaw? More fat available > slowed sugar oxidation > increased time for blood glucose to be disposed, apparent increased need for insulin?
I think the shorter chain length in coconut oil is part of what distinguishes it.

Not really, wouldn't expect glucose or insulin to change much after eating pure cream, and I've seen at least one study about this (in rats). Sugar oxidation continues at its pace (of course, slower than if you just ate a large carb meal while the body brings it back to normal levels). That can be confirmed with glucose test strips, taking measurements up to a few hours after the meal. I'm talking about cream, definitely not coconut oil.

 

[tara]

It is always the calories - but most people don't count them religiously.

No doubt overall calories play a role, but I think there's a fair bit of evidence around about the actual food choices and sometimes timing making a difference too.
You've seen Peat's description of himself adding a couple hundred calories of coconut oil to his diet for a while and losing fat/weight?

People guesstimate, which usually turns out to be a gross underestimation.

Yes, usually/on average (except for people with chronic severe restrictive eating habits).
And common public calorie recommendations are based on those underestimates.
Which makes them unsuitable guides for anyone who measures more carefully.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Insulin spiking make you tend to store everything in your meal rather than burn it.

I disagree.

The insulin response by the pancreas is a normal, physiological and biochemical reaction to amino acids and disaccharides/polysaccharides that pass by the beta cells of the pancreas. It's purpose is to transport them to their appropriate places around the body. They can't get to where they need to go to without insulin. That's why type one diabetics must inject insulin, everyday, multiple times a day for their whole life. Glycogen can not be stored without insulin and amino acids can not be moved around without insulin. In order for those amino acids and sugars to be stored as fat they would have to be converted into triglycerides first, which is a very energy consuming process whereas dietary fats do not use insulin and are easily converted into triglycerides by the liver which are then stored as fat. This is why your fat tissue is comprised of the type of fats you eat most. If you eat a lot of trans fat, we can test it. If you eat a lot of fish fat, we can test it:

National Human Adipose Tissue Survey (NHATS) | Risk Assessment Portal | US EPA

The Composition of Human Adipose Tissue from Several Parts of the World

 

[tara]

Not really, wouldn't expect glucose or insulin to change much after eating pure cream, and I've seen at least one study about this (in rats).

What about cream with sugar?
For people with insulin-dependent diabetes?

The insulin response by the pancreas is a normal, physiological and biochemical reaction to amino acids and disaccharides/polysaccharides that pass by the beta cells of the pancreas. It's purpose is to transport them to their appropriate places around the body. They can't get to where they need to go to without insulin. That's why type one diabetics must inject insulin, everyday, multiple times a day for their whole life. ... Glycogen can not be stored without insulin and amino acids can not be moved around without insulin.

Yeah. And insulin helps get glucose into cells for basic oxidative metabolism to provide current energy to run the system now.

 

[whit]

Yea, insulin plays a crucial role in metabolism. I believe the issue is when its not allowed to do what its supposed to do for multiple reasons. That's when the body continues to send it out and stress hormones follow.
Likely part of the Randall syndrome.
Milk when within the boundry of an individual's metabolism is a wealth of resources.
The body sometimes needs to store some of those resources in glycogen.
Calcium along with many other compounds in milk are best absorbed in the presence of lactose.
It works like insulin in a similar way as fructose does in fruits.

Still some cannot regulate certain sugars for countless reasons.
Possibly one reason is yeast or other bacterial overgrowth.
Another may be lack of lactase enzymes.

No doubt overall calories play a role, but I think there's a fair bit of evidence around about the actual food choices and sometimes timing making a difference too.
You've seen Peat's description of himself adding a couple hundred calories of coconut oil to his diet for a while and losing fat/weight?

I'm with Tara on this. It's all about content specifically the body will burn or store depending on its present state. The state can take a lifetime to adjust to understanding. Where one is at any particular point in time and what that means for diet.

 

[Milkmeateggs]

edit: substituted "particularly" for "especially" fattening in subject line to actually say what I meant.


Since my last question opened up a scintillating debate that was as far reaching as it was insightful, I thought I'd throw out another one.

Why would dairy fat cause weight gain or prohibit weight loss?

For years, I used low carb diets to quickly shed weight that I would always inevitably gain by just eating whatever. In my several forays into Atkins and the like, however, I could never lose weight until I dropped the dairy (butter, cheese). I remember Atkins accounted for this, saying some people would need to drop the dairy. I don't remember though what was the reasoning, if he even gave one. It certainly wouldn't have come from a Peat perspective.

Anyway, fast forward to the present. About 4 or 5 days ago, I substituted the few fat grams (around 20g) I have been getting daily from coconut oil to 1% milk and cottage cheese and the part-skim reduced fat string cheese (2g. fat per piece). Still getting the same amount of total fat. Calories are also the same, just have substituted more protein for less carbs. In that short time, however, there has been a noticeable difference in the way my pants fit. Even had to suck in my gut this morning, when only a week ago I had to wear a belt with the same pants.

I had been eating a little string cheese and 1% milk at the time I started peating again back in January and was gaining, or at least, not losing weight then as well. It's only been in the last few weeks, where I dropped all fat but a tablespoon of coconut oil, that I noticed some weight loss (hence the need for the belt). So yeah, I know coconut oil promotes weight loss, but why (at least in my case) does dairy fat now and in the past either cause weight gain or inhibit weight loss?

I think it's impossible that anyone can gain noticeable amounts of fat from 20 g a day in 5 days, especially from just switching the types of the fat, more protein shouldn't cause weight gain either. It is just water weight probably.

My experience is the exact opposite, both me and my girlfriend are extremely lean yet we eat tons of dairy fat, I have eaten well over 100 g a day from whole milk, hard cheeses and butter consistently yet I didn't gain weight. Started to reduce the amount of fat recently but I think I still get 80-90 g or so.

Milk fat is high in IGF. Lactose is highly insulemic, and so is whey. Insulin spiking make you tend to store everything in your meal rather than burn it. Lactose-free skim milk should help alot.

However, combining protein and carbs has a synergistic effect on insulin spiking, which is reduced by fat, and I think skim milk has an even higher insulin index.

Insulin index is something everyone here should become acquainted with.

I don't think insulin plays a role in weight gain, I agree with Westside, insulin rises after a meal so that the sugar can be stored as glycogen, if insulin spiking would make you store everything you eat as fat, then eating potatoes, whole milk etc would make someone gain huge amounts of fat while leaving them fatiqued. It doesn't seem to be the case, people lose a lot of weight on high starch, low fat diets, and even on high protein, high carb diets as long as overall calories are in check. Personally I eat a lot of potatoes, meat and dairy products and I am very slim.

 

[Luann]

Dairy fat does have some polyunsaturated fat, remember. I like to drink fat-free milk in coffee with coconut oil added in.

 

[lindsay]

I had the opposite effect with dairy. For awhile I was buying whole raw milk and skimming the cream from the top, trying to take out the fat - I don't like the added vitamins in low fat milk. My daily fat intake was very low - something around 30-35 grams (I used to keep track in Cronometer - don't really bother much these days). Despite my lower fat intake with all the dairy, I still gained weight. Finally I said, whatever whatever whatever, I'll eat what I want (though avoiding PUFA). Switched to half and half cream in my coffee (so much tastier and way less fluid intake) and stopped drinking milk (whole or LF). My daily evening snack still consists of around 4 oz. of cheddar and other cheeses. I don't, however, use a lot of butter - tiny bit on eggs, and I tend to cook with CO because it doesn't burn. The result has been, over the course of some months, that I actually slimmed down. I am sure there are many factors in my case (reduced stress, engaging in art, drinking a ton of espresso, supplementation, etc.) but I just feel better on high fat, low water content dairy. Plus, I feel there are so many beneficial vitamins in the fat (vitamin K2, vitamin A) that I'd rather keep it in my diet. I am by no means a super skinny lady, but at 5'6" and 125 lbs. I'm fairly lean and I used to weigh around 135 (still a healthy weight, but I was carrying some extra pudge) before I switched to high fat dairy - I think I made my switch sometime last spring when I realized buying goats' milk was too pricey. I'm somewhat convinced that the fluid content has something to do with it, but this wouldn't explain butter.

 

[Brian]

My guess is that people who gain fat easily from dairy fat or milk already have high estrogen/ low progesterone for various reasons. A common one is probably impaired liver estrogen detox and general function from some type of gut issue, possibly a mature pathogenic biofilm. Another common cause for high estrogen/low progesterone for many is simply from very little sunlight exposure. The optimal hormonal effects come from about 6 hours of being outdoors and one hour of near full body skin exposure per day. It should be no surprise why so many modern people have these hormone ratios out of whack and can gain fat and water weight so easily.

I also wonder if conventional dairy fat has a higher estrogen to progesterone ratio than a more high quality source. That would probably add to the estrogen toxicity in someone who already has very poor estrogen detox function.

 

[skycop00]

My guess is that people who gain fat easily from dairy fat or milk already have high estrogen/ low progesterone for various reasons. A common one is probably impaired liver estrogen detox and general function from some type of gut issue, possibly a mature pathogenic biofilm. Another common cause for high estrogen/low progesterone for many is simply from very little sunlight exposure. The optimal hormonal effects come from about 6 hours of being outdoors and one hour of near full body skin exposure per day. It should be no surprise why so many modern people have these hormone ratios out of whack and can gain fat and water weight so easily.

I also wonder if conventional dairy fat has a higher estrogen to progesterone ratio than a more high quality source. That would probably add to the estrogen toxicity in someone who already has very poor estrogen detox function.

Great response Brian. I was an Air Traffic Controller for 30 years working in dark radar rooms swings and mid shifts. By 35 my Testosterone was below 250, my estrogen was twice the high limit and I felt like total crap. The only thing that kept me going was a lot of exercise and supplementation. By 38 I was on Testosterone Replacement by a well meaning doctor who was woefully unskilled in its management. Fast forward to 52 and I am ready to try an HPTA restart, so I can get off the Testosterone, arimidex and hcg. I will be charting that here if its of interest to anyone. I will start in about 3 weeks.

 

[whit]

Great response Brian. I was an Air Traffic Controller for 30 years working in dark radar rooms swings and mid shifts. By 35 my Testosterone was below 250, my estrogen was twice the high limit and I felt like total crap. The only thing that kept me going was a lot of exercise and supplementation. By 38 I was on Testosterone Replacement by a well meaning doctor who was woefully unskilled in its management. Fast forward to 52 and I am ready to try an HPTA restart, so I can get off the Testosterone, arimidex and hcg. I will be charting that here if its of interest to anyone. I will start in about 3 weeks.

I for one would be interested in your progress as many others
would likely be.

 

[skycop00]

I recently posted my urinary DUTCH test. I did serum labs yesterday. Have them posted by weeks end.

 

[skycop00]

I for one would be interested in your progress as many others
would likely be.

Here is the DUTCH urine test. Great markers to check out, but I will have serum labs back by Friday.

 

[The Revisionist]

Is it a possibility that milk could be inflammatory for some people? Such that they gain weight as a result?

 

[yerrag]

Is it a possibility that milk could be inflammatory for some people? Such that they gain weight as a result?

Thanks to Westside PUFAs, I came to this thread. I don't experience weight gain with drinking milk, at least I don't think so. But I think milk's effect on people vary because there are too many factors involved. Milk itself can be pasteurized or raw, and it could be from cows fed with grass and/or with grains, and could either be cows that are organic, or those fed with growth hormes and a good helping of antibiotics. And then there are two types of cows, the A1 and A2, which produces milk with distinctiive differences, where the type A2 produces a different response from animals and people as compared to type A1 (see The Devil in the Milk: How to Find Truly Healthy Milk ).

Since it's very hard to qualify the type of milk drank by each poster and its effect on it being fattening, it's very hard to draw any conclusions.

 

[mujuro]

Dairy makes me fat too. Over the Christmas break I found I was getting leaner despite eating more per day than the previous 9 or so months. Lots of starch, sugar, EAAs and beef. Then about 3 months ago I started eating strained yogurt again and I noticed myself putting on weight.