Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

[Such_Saturation]

You know it could be the palmitic acid, it could be the myristic acid, lots of things.

It could also be neither of those things. Pass me the Jersey extra thick double cream please

(the one on the right was clearly pre-diabetic to begin with)

 

[tara]

Hi Dean, out of curiosity, did you ever experiment with just dairy fat - ie butter or ghee, not fatty milk or cheese?

 

[natedawggh]

edit: substituted "particularly" for "especially" fattening in subject line to actually say what I meant.


Since my last question opened up a scintillating debate that was as far reaching as it was insightful, I thought I'd throw out another one.

Why would dairy fat cause weight gain or prohibit weight loss?

For years, I used low carb diets to quickly shed weight that I would always inevitably gain by just eating whatever. In my several forays into Atkins and the like, however, I could never lose weight until I dropped the dairy (butter, cheese). I remember Atkins accounted for this, saying some people would need to drop the dairy. I don't remember though what was the reasoning, if he even gave one. It certainly wouldn't have come from a Peat perspective.

Anyway, fast forward to the present. About 4 or 5 days ago, I substituted the few fat grams (around 20g) I have been getting daily from coconut oil to 1% milk and cottage cheese and the part-skim reduced fat string cheese (2g. fat per piece). Still getting the same amount of total fat. Calories are also the same, just have substituted more protein for less carbs. In that short time, however, there has been a noticeable difference in the way my pants fit. Even had to suck in my gut this morning, when only a week ago I had to wear a belt with the same pants.

I had been eating a little string cheese and 1% milk at the time I started peating again back in January and was gaining, or at least, not losing weight then as well. It's only been in the last few weeks, where I dropped all fat but a tablespoon of coconut oil, that I noticed some weight loss (hence the need for the belt). So yeah, I know coconut oil promotes weight loss, but why (at least in my case) does dairy fat now and in the past either cause weight gain or inhibit weight loss?

It's not the fat it's the balance of amino acids. because milk is higher in tryptophan, a sluggish metabolism immediately converts the tryptophan into serotonin, which stimulates water retention and weight gain. For people who have this reaction to milk (myself included) better sources of more balanced amino acids are better, such as potatoes and shellfish. If you must drink milk the supplement lysine can be used to help divert serotonin formation.

 

[Dean]

Hi Dean, out of curiosity, did you ever experiment with just dairy fat - ie butter or ghee, not fatty milk or cheese?

Yeah, since cheese is always constipating for me...I was thinking about this after posting yesterday about dropping the string cheese first... there were times in the past I've tried to keep the butter and (especially) heavy cream for coffee, while dropping cheese. Same result.

 

[Dean]

It's not the fat it's the balance of amino acids. because milk is higher in tryptophan, a sluggish metabolism immediately converts the tryptophan into serotonin, which stimulates water retention and weight gain. For people who have this reaction to milk (myself included) better sources of more balanced amino acids are better, such as potatoes and shellfish. If you must drink milk the supplement lysine can be used to help divert serotonin formation.

I guess that could be, but I was starting to lose a bit using up to 4 cups a day of non-fat milk powder and a cup or two of Fage yogurt. So, obviously that's still a lot of dairy, and even a trivial amount of dairy fat. Maybe the tablespoon of coconut oil as my only significant fat source was counterbalancing the usual dairy effect on me?

edit: I guess I should also mention that Peat recommends dairy/milk for their amino acid balance. I think he argues that the calcium protects against the conversion to serotonin, or something like that. Anyway, perhaps that is the root of the problem. Could it be that if dairy or dairy fat is fattening for you that it could be a sign that your body is not assimilating the calcium properly and thus the tryptophan and/or insulin effects of the milk/dairy are not being mitigated?

 

[Ella]

Yes, the amino acids. Milk has an abundance of free glutamine, taurine, glycine & histidine relative to other free amino acids.

 

[Peata]

Last Fall I think it was, I stopped drinking milk (where before on RP I was drinking glasses of it) and only used a little dairy in coffee. I still ate some cheese and a little yogurt. I did seem to lose a little of the bloat I was carrying. I did not give up dairy entirely though, so I'm not sure if that would have helped me lose weight or no.

 

[Peata]

edit: substituted "particularly" for "especially" fattening in subject line to actually say what I meant.


Since my last question opened up a scintillating debate that was as far reaching as it was insightful, I thought I'd throw out another one.

Why would dairy fat cause weight gain or prohibit weight loss?

For years, I used low carb diets to quickly shed weight that I would always inevitably gain by just eating whatever. In my several forays into Atkins and the like, however, I could never lose weight until I dropped the dairy (butter, cheese). I remember Atkins accounted for this, saying some people would need to drop the dairy. I don't remember though what was the reasoning, if he even gave one. It certainly wouldn't have come from a Peat perspective.

Anyway, fast forward to the present. About 4 or 5 days ago, I substituted the few fat grams (around 20g) I have been getting daily from coconut oil to 1% milk and cottage cheese and the part-skim reduced fat string cheese (2g. fat per piece). Still getting the same amount of total fat. Calories are also the same, just have substituted more protein for less carbs. In that short time, however, there has been a noticeable difference in the way my pants fit. Even had to suck in my gut this morning, when only a week ago I had to wear a belt with the same pants.

I had been eating a little string cheese and 1% milk at the time I started peating again back in January and was gaining, or at least, not losing weight then as well. It's only been in the last few weeks, where I dropped all fat but a tablespoon of coconut oil, that I noticed some weight loss (hence the need for the belt). So yeah, I know coconut oil promotes weight loss, but why (at least in my case) does dairy fat now and in the past either cause weight gain or inhibit weight loss?

I found this article interesting: http://fussybody.com/coconut-oil-for-weight-loss/ I don't know anything about the site, just happened upon that article in a web search.

So after reading that and your OP, I'm interested in how you were using coconut oil on your low fat diet? Cooking with it? Taking it off a spoon between meals? Or?

 

[Dean]

I found this article interesting: http://fussybody.com/coconut-oil-for-weight-loss/ I don't know anything about the site, just happened upon that article in a web search.

So after reading that and your OP, I'm interested in how you were using coconut oil on your low fat diet? Cooking with it? Taking it off a spoon between meals? Or?

Peata, I have to admit I'm a bit of a pod and don't know what "OP" stands for.

Anyway, just a tablespoon a day. A lot of times just 3 teaspoons with salt sprinkled on it 3 separate times a day at some point during the course of my 5 feedings. Sometimes, I'd use 2 teaspoons or all 3 up in one saute of zucchini, yellow, bells, onions.

Since I decided to up my protein and added the 1% cottage cheese and reduced fat string cheese but wanted to stay around the 20g fat/day mark, it kind of forced the coconut oil to the sidelines. I've dropped the string cheese and now had fat gram room for a few teaspoons of coconut oil today. We'll see if getting that back into the mix makes a difference.

Of course, Peat has talked about the usefulness of coconut oil in weight loss. I've also heard him say, however, that keeping it to a tablespoon a day is wise.

I'm also using the refined coconut oil Peat recommends.

 

[tara]

OP=original poster

 

[Peata]

I found this article interesting: http://fussybody.com/coconut-oil-for-weight-loss/ I don't know anything about the site, just happened upon that article in a web search.

So after reading that and your OP, I'm interested in how you were using coconut oil on your low fat diet? Cooking with it? Taking it off a spoon between meals? Or?

Peata, I have to admit I'm a bit of a pod and don't know what "OP" stands for.

Anyway, just a tablespoon a day. A lot of times just 3 teaspoons with salt sprinkled on it 3 separate times a day at some point during the course of my 5 feedings. Sometimes, I'd use 2 teaspoons or all 3 up in one saute of zucchini, yellow, bells, onions.

Since I decided to up my protein and added the 1% cottage cheese and reduced fat string cheese but wanted to stay around the 20g fat/day mark, it kind of forced the coconut oil to the sidelines. I've dropped the string cheese and now had fat gram room for a few teaspoons of coconut oil today. We'll see if getting that back into the mix makes a difference.

Of course, Peat has talked about the usefulness of coconut oil in weight loss. I've also heard him say, however, that keeping it to a tablespoon a day is wise.

I'm also using the refined coconut oil Peat recommends.

By OP I meant original post. So I wonder what would happen if you kept the added coconut oil along with the dairy you've started eating? Another thing that is frustrating about all this is that maybe bodies would react differently when metabolism is higher than lower anyway, so it wouldn't matter in a real healthy person. I think I have been having big improvements in almost everything and yet the weight won't go.

 

[Dean]

Yeah, I may try that at some point. I'm still kind of fixated on depleting PUFA now. I'm also not only wanting to increase protein, but my % of calories from protein. Keeping fat low makes it easier to manage that and still keep carbs sufficient--though I'm sure many here would disagree as to the sufficiency of the amount I'm consuming. Anyway...

Wish I had the answer on weight loss, though it's great you are doing well otherwise. Maybe your body just isn't ready to shed it quite yet. Perhaps there is more sorting out in there to do or the extra weight is serving a protective function in some way?

 

[Peata]

How were you getting your calcium before you added the dairy to your diet? Do you know how much calcium you got each day?

I'm currently reducing dairy but I'm using a little calcium and magnesium in a supplement to help.

Thanks for the thoughts on lack of weight loss. What you say may be true. I still haven't given up.

 

[Dean]

I was getting calcium from non fat dry milk and Fage 0% fat yogurt. I was pretty much tapped out on those though, in fact I've been wanting to back off on the yogurt. So, the 1% cottage cheese and milk and string cheese were in addition to what I'd already been getting. Dairy has provided the overwhelming vast majority of my protein in these 5 months of my 3rd try at Peating. Zero gelatin or meat. I've had oysters a handful of times and lean fish or other seafood an additional few times.

 

[Mittir]

Why would dairy fat cause weight gain or prohibit weight loss?

For years, I used low carb diets to quickly shed weight that I would always inevitably gain by just eating whatever. In my several forays into Atkins and the like, however, I could never lose weight until I dropped the dairy (butter, cheese).

One possibility is that oxidized cholesterol in butter and cheese causing weight gain or
preventing weight loss. Fresh milk, cream and butter do not have oxidized cholesterol
or only in trace amounts. But certain kind of cheese has considerable amount depending
on storage condition. Same happens with butter. I do not know if there is enough oxidized
cholesterol in butter and cheese to cause this problem. Have you had same problem
with full fat milk?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Why do you find it fattening? Because the fat you eat is the fat you wear, as evidenced by your fat tissue being comprised of the type of fat you eat the most of.

Some fitting Peat quotes on this subject:

"I’ve mentioned at times I’ve averaged over the years probably a gallon of milk a day but that’s always been 1% milk because even at 2 quarts of milk, a person doesn’t want to have whole milk at 3 or 4% fat." - RP

Josh Rubin then says: "What’s interesting is when you say those things, I don’t think you realize the repercussions. You have all these people walking around trying to drink gallons of milk but they’re drinking whole milk and their like “Why am I gaining so much weight…(Peat and Josh laughing) listen here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7204&p=89863#p89863

"For people who aren't very active, low fat milk and cheese are better, because the extra fat calories aren't needed." - RP

"The fats in meat and cheese can be minimized by choosing low fat types, and skimmed or 1% milk can be used." - RP

"but the first thing should be to make sure her calcium to phosphorus ratio is good, by having two quarts of low fat milk per day, or the equivalent in low fat cheese, with no grains, legumes, nuts, or muscle meats, and with some well cooked greens regularly." - RP

"For people who don't do hard physical labor, low-fat milk is appropriate." - RP

“I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.” - RP

 

[Tarmander]

I figured I would bump this thread as this topic is being discussed in another thread that is not really related to dairy being fattening.

I have also found dairy to be very fattening. When I first started recovering from years of undereating, I ate what I craved, and I craved Ice Cream. I ate it for months and put on 30lbs or so. I also found that dairy in a fattening form raises my needs for insulin dramatically. It is amazing the difference between coconut ice cream and the real thing. I can eat coconut ice cream and be just fine, but I eat a good amount of the dairy ice cream and my blood sugar just does not want to come down at all. This is not exactly the same for goat cheese or goat milk oddly enough, but it does still have a similar effect although less.

Recently, I got some tilamook cheese and started putting some on the potatoes I ate. Just like with the ice cream, for some reason my insulin needs started rising. I did not think it had that much fat in it until I typed it into CronoMeter and found I was getting like 50g+ of dairy fat where before I was not. I decided to cut it out for a day and bam! Insulin needs fall, blood sugar lower.

The rub for me is the craving. At the end of last year I increased my caffeine intake, and after a few weeks, I craved Ice Cream so so badly. And not coconut, but the real thing! My philosophy from years ago was that if my body craved it, there was something in it that was good for it and I should eat it. Now I am not so sure. Milk and dairy has so much nutrition in it, and I am at a loss at how I would replace it in my diet....if I cut out all dairy, cow or goat or otherwise, for a month or so, what would I replace it with?

 

[tomisonbottom]

Dean, around 4 months of strict zero added fat. Besides occasional hard boiled eggs, I did not eat any fat.

Zachs, what did you eat during that time frame? I've read that too much liquid can be problematic for a hypo person and I bloat and gain weight when I eat starches. So if you were hypo, I'm curious if you were able to drink liquids and eat starch? Because going zero fat sounds like a diet with quite a bit of liquid and starches....

 

[jyb]

The rub for me is the craving. At the end of last year I increased my caffeine intake, and after a few weeks, I craved Ice Cream so so badly. And not coconut, but the real thing! My philosophy from years ago was that if my body craved it, there was something in it that was good for it and I should eat it. Now I am not so sure. Milk and dairy has so much nutrition in it, and I am at a loss at how I would replace it in my diet....if I cut out all dairy, cow or goat or otherwise, for a month or so, what would I replace it with?

Have you tried cream (double cream) instead of ice cream? I don't have blood sugar/weight issues, but I find it healthier and cheaper (compared to what I find in, say, Haagen-Dasz). Pure cream shouldn't affect blood glucose nor insulin. I have barely bought any ice cream in years now, I only use double cream for this purpose.

 

[marikay]

Have you tried cream (double cream) instead of ice cream? I don't have blood sugar/weight issues, but I find it healthier and cheaper (compared to what I find in, say, Haagen-Dasz). Pure cream shouldn't affect blood glucose nor insulin. I have barely bought any ice cream in years now, I only use double cream for this purpose.

Do you add any sugar or salt to the cream? And do you eat it all by itself?