The Cause Of Baldness

[CLASH]

@Thoushant
Perhaps a topical fat soluble vitamin mixture based in fatty acids (MCTs) with some methyl palmitate like from @haidut's Defibron could in conjunction with detumescence therapy and red light could completely restore the scalp. I have to look into the methyl fatty acids more but fatty acids based on studies that @haidut has sent me can reverse fibrosis, atleast in the liver.

 

[Thoushant]

@CLASH
most definitely it's a good base layer to build up on. I'm currently taking Tocotrienols, clinical trail verified hair growth. I don't know how every balding isn't taking it already.
Vitamin E succinate can increase PGE2, but I haven't found liquid of it yet.
I have some MCT vit D somewhere, have to find it.

are you familair with "eldarlmario"on BTT. He comes off antagonistic, but he is(was?) really on to something

Basicly what he is saying is to use ultra low dose tretinoin(0.0005% afair). appearently too high and you deplete stem cells. Vitamin D fixes a lot of the upregulated pathways in MPB, but has to be topical, as he talks about VDR alterations, hypothesising that D-binding protein can't interact well.
Pax1/Foxa2- 1 of the primary genetic reasons why we balding men- are balding - BaldTruthTalk.com

From the Defribron articles they are vasodilating, lowering ROS and TGF-beta, reduce IL-6 and restores SOD, but also reduce PGE2. sounds good. I can see they lower TNF-alpha and Nf-kB, don't know how that affects hair. My rule of thumb is tgf-b is in excess from DHT, and I recall some of the other big inflammatory mediators working against tgf-b, unfortuneatly I have trouble keeping up with abbreviations.
Maybe with something to increase PGE2 again, they're good.

EDIT: regarding the fibrosis, most articles I've seen state that TGF-B activates positive feedback loops(including, not limited to JNK, ERK1/2 afair) that keep the fibrosis going and worsening, once you stop the signal though, the fibrosis fades away by time/stretch

 

[Ron J]

In regards to the lack of blood flow/sub-par vascular network, I believe that mastication is in part responsible. Soft processed foods likely leads to reduced facial/cranial muscles.

 

[kayumochi]

@Mossy
you can experience a "here" reaction when first starting kefir, I had brain fog, and fatigue for a week. Then all of a sudden I felt great, no more bloating from food, no brain fog, no weird pains. I really think it needs to be a grain culture. The industrial probiotics are akin to taking low quality b vitamins instead of eating liver (not a perfect example but the first thatches to mind).

@kayumochi
depending on your flora resistant starch= butyrate producers. what does "wonders" entail specifically?

I went 25 years with a chronic crack on the side of my mouth due to gut *imbalances.* RS was the first thing, and you can imagine that over two and a half decades I tried everything, that offered relief.

 

[Mossy]

Vit D may be deficient not because of lack of sunlight (I was severely vit D deficient but i lived in miami and tanned in the sun at around 2 everyday atleast 30 min) but because of ups regulation of immune system function due to the gut, decreased calcium intake and increased TLR4 activation which if I recall correctly is a antagonized by Vit D. So I think the usage of Vit D gets skyrocketed creating an inadequate intake. Also, if endotoxin is high then cholesterol may move towards protection against endotoxin as opposed to be utilized for Vit D production. These Vit D statements are my hypothesis, not directly based on studies so do what you will with it haha.

This is interesting to me, for two reasons: 1) I was living in Miami as well (so, getting sun daily), during the time of my health collapse, and, I was very vitamin D deficient; 2) my cholesterol was high as well, which possibly points to its increase to protect against endotoxin. Obviously, cholesterol being high in and of itself is nothing special, but within the context of me being in what I can now retrospectively call an endotoxin state, along with vitamin D deficiency, and onset of hair loss, keeps me intrigued with your theorizing, CLASH.

BTW, I'm just sharing these thoughts, not looking for a response. I don't want to derail your dialogue. Small world, though: we were both in Miami -- I'm guessing not at the same time, though.

 

[Mossy]

@CLASH
most definitely it's a good base layer to build up on. I'm currently taking Tocotrienols, clinical trail verified hair growth. I don't know how every balding isn't taking it already.

Thoushant, I was taking Tocotrienols, but did not like the way they made me feel. I had been considering starting them again, but had stumbled upon many anti-tocotrienol threads on this forum -- here are a few:
A Possible Clue As To Why Tocotrienols May Be Harmful
Tocotrienols as vitamin E?

Do you have anything to combat the anti-tocotrienol position?

Vitamin E succinate can increase PGE2, but I haven't found liquid of it yet.

Due to the same study you're probably referencing, I started taking this a few years back, orally. Do you see a preference in using it as a topical? I have added it to my topicals as well, but I'm uncertain about the solubility of it.

Vitamin D fixes a lot of the upregulated pathways in MPB, but has to be topical, as he talks about VDR alterations, hypothesising that D-binding protein can't interact well.

Though I've tried most things, this is one I still have on my to-do list. Do you use topical D?

 

[CLASH]

@Mossy
No worries about derailing. I went to the U for my 4 years undergrad, I actually just graduates in may hahah... I tested my vit D and in august and I was 76ng/ml but I got my result today (my doctor is incompetent haha). Prior to this I was deficient so I started supplementing 10,000 iu on my skin 1 or 2 times per day (I should have done more lab work haha....). Interestingly I cleared most of my gut issues and the level seems fo have just shot up. Unfortunately, I also started supplementing at the same time so I can't really tell if my hypothesis holds any validity. I am testing again, because i was at 76 ng/ml in august but have been supplementing what I mentioned above so I think my level may be way high at this point ... fortunately i take k2, a and eat liver weekly so I am hoping the calcification isnt too big of a deal. Btw @Mossy I posted some info in the defibron thread about fats and digestion if your interested. It involves bile acids, fats, protein digestion and small intestine sterilization.

 

[CLASH]

@Thoushant
Thanks for your post. I don't know all the exact discrete mechanisms at the scalp level in extreme depth although I possibly am going to go through it all when I create a blog and post about the theory just to make sure I cover everything and it all makes sense together (coming soon haha). I tend to look at things globally and systemically first and discretely last. I try for the most simple explanation and constantly adjust to make all the pieces of the puzzle fit together always questioning the alternative possibilities. Too be honest I have never been on a baldness forum except when I was researching DHT and hairloss for the post on here. I have never participate in any of the forums. All my understanding is from Danny Roddy, journals, Rob from perfect hair health, ray peat, Haidut, Travis and looking at drug mechanisms among other things on wikipedia hahah. I guess that will give you some insight into the biases in the theory I proposed.

 

[raypeatclips]

@Mossy
No worries about derailing. I went to the U for my 4 years undergrad, I actually just graduates in may hahah... I tested my vit D and in august and I was 76ng/ml but I got my result today (my doctor is incompetent haha). Prior to this I was deficient so I started supplementing 10,000 iu on my skin 1 or 2 times per day (I should have done more lab work haha....). Interestingly I cleared most of my gut issues and the level seems fo have just shot up. Unfortunately, I also started supplementing at the same time so I can't really tell if my hypothesis holds any validity. I am testing again, because i was at 76 ng/ml in august but have been supplementing what I mentioned above so I think my level may be way high at this point ... fortunately i take k2, a and eat liver weekly so I am hoping the calcification isnt too big of a deal. Btw @Mossy I posted some info in the defibron thread about fats and digestion if your interested. It involves bile acids, fats, protein digestion and small intestine sterilization.

What was your D levels prior to the topical D? What body part did you apply it to?

 

[CLASH]

@raypeatclips
In the early 20s if I recall correctly (had it tested in april I think). I applied on my upper arms and rubbed it in well in the mornings after a shower. I didnt rotate spots either. I was trying to get to 30-50 range, from what I read 5000iu should do this, but I was using topically so I increased the dose, I saw peat mentioned 20,000iu.

 

[raypeatclips]

@raypeatclips
In the early 20s if I recall correctly (had it tested in april I think). I applied on my upper arms and rubbed it in well in the mornings after a shower. I didnt rotate spots either. I was trying to get to 30-50 range, from what I read 5000iu should do this, but I was using topically so I increased the dose, I saw peat mentioned 20,000iu.

Wow that is very impressive! Which brand of vitamin D did you use? Also, you said you took K as well i thick What doses and orally/topically? Any other supps? Do you eat liver?

Just trying to work out the factors that mean some people's D levels don't go up with big topical doses and others do.

 

[johnwester130]

Wow that is very impressive! Which brand of vitamin D did you use? Also, you said you took K as well i thick What doses and orally/topically? Any other supps? Do you eat liver?

Just trying to work out the factors that mean some people's D levels don't go up with big topical doses and others do.

why not use vitamin d orally ?

 

[raypeatclips]

why not use vitamin d orally ?

I would love to. Gut issues and strange chest symptoms. Spoke to Peat about them and he guessed I was getting some sort of inflammatory reaction to the supp.

 

[CLASH]

@raypeatclips
Health natura and idealabs for all my fat solubles. I use each one randomly, one day i take health natura the next idealabs, some days both. I keep the doses relatively stable tho. I dont take any supplements orally besides vit c. I dont take any supps besides fat solubles, vit c, 1/4 dose of energin some days and topical mag chloride. My diet is: Liver, oysters, mussels, kidney, shrimp, tallow, honey, raw kefir, full fat goat milk, fruit in season (i live up north now).

EDIT: diet has done much more for me than supps. Raw milk doing wonders. Energin helped when i had depression till i sorted out my gut issues.

 

[Mossy]

@Mossy
No worries about derailing. I went to the U for my 4 years undergrad, I actually just graduates in may hahah... I tested my vit D and in august and I was 76ng/ml but I got my result today (my doctor is incompetent haha). Prior to this I was deficient so I started supplementing 10,000 iu on my skin 1 or 2 times per day (I should have done more lab work haha....). Interestingly I cleared most of my gut issues and the level seems fo have just shot up. Unfortunately, I also started supplementing at the same time so I can't really tell if my hypothesis holds any validity. I am testing again, because i was at 76 ng/ml in august but have been supplementing what I mentioned above so I think my level may be way high at this point ... fortunately i take k2, a and eat liver weekly so I am hoping the calcification isnt too big of a deal. Btw @Mossy I posted some info in the defibron thread about fats and digestion if your interested. It involves bile acids, fats, protein digestion and small intestine sterilization.

Funny stuff, I lived fairly close to the U -- on the edge of Pinecrest, across from Dadeland: US1 and N. Kendall Dr. would be the major cross streets. Really fun times, until they weren't! Haha. Maybe The Big Cheese finally did me in.

Wow, those are good D levels. At my lowest, I was 25 ng/ml. Due to cost, I supplement orally, assuming it's 4x the availability -- do you think this is accurate?

You're inspiring me to focus on the gut, as that seems to be the catalyst to moving all things in the right direction. Appreciate the reference to the defibron thread, I'll take a look. Ultimately, as for hairloss, your theories, and other evidences do seem to suggest the mechanical aspect of fighting hair-loss is really a small part, if not primarily cosmetic, and maybe even just producing temporary results.

 

[raypeatclips]

@raypeatclips
Health natura and idealabs for all my fat solubles. I use each one randomly, one day i take health natura the next idealabs, some days both. I keep the doses relatively stable tho. I dont take any supplements orally besides vit c. I dont take any supps besides fat solubles, vit c, 1/4 dose of energin some days and topical mag chloride. My diet is: Liver, oysters, mussels, kidney, shrimp, tallow, honey, raw kefir, full fat goat milk, fruit in season (i live up north now).

EDIT: diet has done much more for me than supps. Raw milk doing wonders. Energin helped when i had depression till i sorted out my gut issues.

Interesting, thanks. What is your body composition like? Do you carry much fat?

 

[Thoushant]

Thoushant, I was taking Tocotrienols, but did not like the way they made me feel. I had been considering starting them again, but had stumbled upon many anti-tocotrienol threads on this forum -- here are a few:
A Possible Clue As To Why Tocotrienols May Be Harmful
Tocotrienols as vitamin E?

Do you have anything to combat the anti-tocotrienol position?


Due to the same study you're probably referencing, I started taking this a few years back, orally. Do you see a preference in using it as a topical? I have added it to my topicals as well, but I'm uncertain about the solubility of it.


Though I've tried most things, this is one I still have on my to-do list. Do you use topical D?

Hey Mossy, thank you for the links. I might revisit this, so far I'm just glancing the articles, it's late but this is exciting... I kinda just jumped for tocotrienols, seeing as they have a host of proven benefits for common metabolic disorders, skin health, hair, liver, heart. I take it with sesame paste, seeing as sesame lignans increase tissue saturation.
How did they make you feel weird? There are different formulation, I went for the ratio mentioned in the study. It lowered my energy levels, made my eyes feel tired for 4 days, but it seemed more like some tension was removed, judging by their current fluid movement Somehow my social interaction issues are just gone, it's like I've waken up from a dream, and my dreams have been heavily emotional, like the stuff you wake up and feel changed from. I slept 1 hour 7pm, woke up 8:30ish and thought "probably 4AM right now", nope, 1.5 hours sleep.

As far as the first link goes, the first link is talking about tocophyryl Quinone. I don't see the connection to tocotrienols, but it might be relevant for tocophyryl succinate(Vitamin E succinate is referenced a lot in the article, but isn't mentioned in text). It is talking about cytotoxicity of quinonated tocopherols, It doesn't seem at all related to tocotrienols.. Actually very confusing study to put in context of tocotrienols, The cytotoxicity of that chemical might be a metabolic byproduct of b, g, d tocopherols(So not tocotrienols) though. Vitamin E can interfere with Vitamin K metabolism, so I guess that is where it would suddenly get quinonated?

That tocotrienols activate the xenobiotic pathways "likely because yada yada" seems like pure speculation from article authors, it's just random chemical interaction favoring their clearince(I guess the body REAALLY loves accutane...). A lot of things activate xenobiotic pathways, it's just the detoxification P450 enzymes of the liver. And even if it's "percieved as a drug, because the body handles it as a drug" it's a weak argument, when half this board is on cyproheptadine etc etc. "the body sees them as poison" the body has a xenobiotic pathways, because it can't have a specific pathway for every single molecule structure out there, so it came up with an effecient method of clearing "unknown" structures by very generel enzymes.. Not necessarily "POISON" Xenobiotic is just liver detox (step 1 make electrofile, step 2 make water soluable, step 3 kidney excretion)
So all in all, the thread is not directly about to tocotrienols, but offers a possible clue to why they are harmful, yet talks about tocopherol forms.
Link 2: RP doesn't like tocotrienols because they are unsaturated... This very ability gives them their lipid peroxidation inhibition over common vitamin E. I haven't otherwise read the claims of enlarged liver, articles would be nice.
well I mean, erhh I still eat Burger King fries..?

I don't know anything about the succinate form tbh, I know it's synthetic somehow, and for general oral use, I prefer natural. For topical there's a lot of filler materials, and it seems like a lot of gunk that could plugs pores and feed bacteria?(I dissovled meltaonin with Mgsterate filler, 2 days later I had a nice culture of bacteria joining it).

I'm just starting topical D tbh! eldarlmario link seem to showcase they benefit a whole set of genes, but he talking about synthetic form and is using it in combo with valproic acid and synthetic vitamin A, so I want to find optimal doses of the natural vitamins first.

@Thoushant
Thanks for your post. I don't know all the exact discrete mechanisms at the scalp level in extreme depth although I possibly am going to go through it all when I create a blog and post about the theory just to make sure I cover everything and it all makes sense together (coming soon haha). I tend to look at things globally and systemically first and discretely last. I try for the most simple explanation and constantly adjust to make all the pieces of the puzzle fit together always questioning the alternative possibilities. Too be honest I have never been on a baldness forum except when I was researching DHT and hairloss for the post on here. I have never participate in any of the forums. All my understanding is from Danny Roddy, journals, Rob from perfect hair health, ray peat, Haidut, Travis and looking at drug mechanisms among other things on wikipedia hahah. I guess that will give you some insight into the biases in the theory I proposed.

Ahh, well very intersting to hear you're work progress. In that case I get how eldarlmario can't fit your style. And he did get a lot of hate for posting huge wall texts, so it seems offputing at first, I get that. If you don't spam my mail acc, I will sub :)
I guess my work habit is to gather as much info about, well everything, and then after that having eureka moments of combining it :P Jack of all..
Immortalhair was the only decent hairloss site I frequented, as people were openminded and could actually discuss before the big dismissal hammer. The other forums are very big though, and you stumble across gems such as eldarlmario and chemical, when google surfing.

 

[CLASH]

@raypeatclips
I am 195-200lbs, about 10-15% bodyfat (maybe more??), closer to 15 and I'm 6'2". I lift weights regularly. I dont carry much fat, you can see my individual abs resting, although I am definetly not "shredded" (getting ready for the winter, gotta have some body fat for the hibernation haha). I carry most of my bodyfat subcutaneously. My waist is a 30. Keep in mind im 22.

 

[CLASH]

@Mossy
Haha thats real close to the U. I lived in the "hood" per say. I lived by mt. Neebo church behind red road close to the baptist hospital haha.

I just spoke with travis in a vit d thread and apparently based on a study he sent me and some quick corroboration on pubmed topical and oral are relatively close in effectiveness.

Mechanical in what sense? Massaging? If so, i think massaging is probably one of the most important in reversing what is already done. If you mean mechanical in terms of mechanical understanding and definitions than yea I think adressibng the underlying gut issues is most importatnt.

 

[helpmyhair]

Do you live in the US if you don't mind me asking? You'll have to try out different things and see what works. I think raw milk is ideal to be honest. Many of my friends/ family who try store bought have issues and who they switch to raw they have no problems. I would really try to source raw. If you tell me where you are (country and state if thats not too much info) I can give some suggestions (depending on where you live) to source the milk. If theres a will theres a way, most of the time :)

Btw I don't disagree with decreasing. I just think balance is way more important. Amount does probably play a part though.

No I live in a major city in Canada. And because its a city, I don't have a car.. so even driving to look for farms outside the city is not really an option. Wish there was an alternative. Today I bought some store-bought kefir.. not sure why.. maybe cause it was raspberry flavor :P

Lemme know if you think there is an alternative solution to my dillema. As I mentioned before, sodium bicarbonate and coconot oil seem to help my gut health.

Btw, can you outline your whole regimen? I know its a bit scattered throughout this thread. Thanks!