Males Regrow Hair During MtF Transition - DHT Bad? Skull Growth = MPB?

haidut

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Are you referring to mtf trans or am I misunderstanding this point? Because there might not be any existing studies, but there are tons of stories online of them regrowing hair while transitioning.

No, I meant the prostate cancer patients who almost always have MPB. None of them has been shown to regrow the slightest amount of hair during controlled clinical trials, and their treatment is most often an anti-androgen + estrogen.
 
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No, I meant the prostate cancer patients who almost always have MPB. None of them has been shown to regrow the slightest amount of hair during controlled clinical trials, and their treatment is most often an anti-androgen + estrogen.

Can you elaborate on that? 'almost always' seems like a (wild?) exaggeration. How long were the trials, did they track the hairline or just mention it vaguely, etc.?

Male pattern baldness and clinical prostate cancer in the epidemiologic follow-up of the first National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. - PubMed - NCBI
 

LCohen

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No, I meant the prostate cancer patients who almost always have MPB. None of them has been shown to regrow the slightest amount of hair during controlled clinical trials, and their treatment is most often an anti-androgen + estrogen.

 

johnwester130

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spironolactone is also a progesterone derivative

"Spironolactone (Aldactone R) is the prototypic mineralocorticoid receptor antagonist (MRA), patented over 50 years ago and still in widespread clinical use. Structurally, it is a synthetic derivative of progesterone, based on the knowledge that physiologically (e.g. in pregnancy) progesterone is a potent MRA."


this man did regrow hair with normal progesterone though

Topical Progesterone used to combat male androgen alopecia - BaldTruthTalk.com
 

xetawaves

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spironolactone is also a progesterone derivative

"Spironolactone (Aldactone R) is the prototypic mineralocorticoid receptor antagonist (MRA), patented over 50 years ago and still in widespread clinical use. Structurally, it is a synthetic derivative of progesterone, based on the knowledge that physiologically (e.g. in pregnancy) progesterone is a potent MRA."


this man did regrow hair with normal progesterone though

Topical Progesterone used to combat male androgen alopecia - BaldTruthTalk.com

Pretty sure that guy is using a topical solution of progesterone, minoxidil, and finasteride. Many PRP clinics use progesterone with little results.

I've been taking progesterone for almost a year now and my hair has just gotten worse. I might try it topically on my scalp once I buzz my hair.
 
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The blog post is misleading and makes a lot of incorrect statements. MtF conversion people receive anti-androgenic drugs and if they get "female" hormones they typically get a combination of estrogen AND progesterone. I don't think MtF get only estrogen because doctors know it is dangerous and increases risk of cancer. So, they balance it with progesterone. Also, progesterone is the steroid that gives the typical feminine features, and estrogen is mostly given for breast growth.
The only people that get full blockade of DHT plus hefty doses of just estrogen are men with prostate cancer. Given the association between MPB and prostate cancer, most of the prostate cancer patients have MPB as well. I don't know of even a single published study showing that the DHT blocker + estrogen treatment these people receive reverses or even stops their hair loss. That should tell you enough if DHT is a cause of hair loss and whether estrogen is beneficial.
I'm no expert on this but from what I can tell from friends and reading progesterone is used a lot more rarely, and it's normally a combo of spiro and estradiol... although some people get progesterone as a secondary thing (some people think it helps breast growth from what i can tell reading some forums)
 

tang

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That head shape is result of calcification and fibrosis. Starting from the forehead, the head gets bigger as the person goes bald. Scalp extends. Yes, non-balding scalp is flat. It maybe a sign of blood pressure or heart problem.

Prolactin
triggers sebaceous gland to make sebum, oil, grease. Oily hair and shining bald scalp is the result of prolactin.

Prolactin
and TSH also suppresses thyroid and metabolism. You need to keep both of them low. So low.

Clearly, androgens are not the reason for balding because;

Thousands of men have low T even low DHT and they're balding.

There are tons of bodybuilders using strongest androgens (like DHT) and harsh steroids. They're not bald. Even some of them have full head of hair.


Thats not a "clear" relationship at all. Androgens are obviously and irrefutably involved in MPB, there is such an abundance of evidence on this, spanning some 40+ years of work that its amazing to me people still attempt to argue this like all the researchers involved are just dumb monkeys flinging ***t at a board and seeing what sticks, while all the amateur internet researchers who flip flop with a change of the wind are all brilliant geniuses. The very pilot experiments that discovered the role of androgens in balding have never been clearly refuted by such geniuses. For example, why does baldness not happen in men with a congenital deficiency of 5AR? Why does baldness completely arrest after castration, and resume when testosterone is administered?

As for bodybuilders, the sport of bodybuilding has got increasingly more bald across the board as dosages have increased and drugs like testosterone have become the mainstay use of competitiors, replacing nandrolone.:
heres a lineup in 2016:
las-vegas-nevada-usa-17th-sep-2016-bodybuilders-compete-in-the-mr-GYN97R.jpg


the prevalence of shorn scalps in bbing these days is sure as hell not because its fashionable.

Olympia 1980:
1980.1.jpg


only one man (roger walker) showing signs of recession.


You step into any gym these days and you'll notice a relationship between muscular size, acne, and baldness or propensity to wear a hat indoors ;). Its so common now among the steroid using community there are memes about men having to run "hat game" 24/7 after using steroids to pretend they still have hair.

As for the specific drugs, NO, no one uses DHT because it is deactivated in the skeletal muscle. Many of the drugs used are derived from DHT but this is meaningless when it comes to their actions. For example, one of the most benign androgens, oxandrolone (better known by its tradename Anavar) is derived from DHT. Even some of the supposedly "massively androgenic" drugs are in fact, much less potent than DHT. Such as drostanolone propionate (Masteron) which was used as a breast cancer drug for a short time, preferentially, because it was less masculinizing than an equal dose of testosterone propionate.
 

Dhair

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Thats not a "clear" relationship at all. Androgens are obviously and irrefutably involved in MPB, there is such an abundance of evidence on this, spanning some 40+ years of work that its amazing to me people still attempt to argue this like all the researchers involved are just dumb monkeys flinging ***t at a board and seeing what sticks, while all the amateur internet researchers who flip flop with a change of the wind are all brilliant geniuses. The very pilot experiments that discovered the role of androgens in balding have never been clearly refuted by such geniuses. For example, why does baldness not happen in men with a congenital deficiency of 5AR? Why does baldness completely arrest after castration, and resume when testosterone is administered?

As for bodybuilders, the sport of bodybuilding has got increasingly more bald across the board as dosages have increased and drugs like testosterone have become the mainstay use of competitiors, replacing nandrolone.:
heres a lineup in 2016:
las-vegas-nevada-usa-17th-sep-2016-bodybuilders-compete-in-the-mr-GYN97R.jpg


the prevalence of shorn scalps in bbing these days is sure as hell not because its fashionable.

Olympia 1980:
1980.1.jpg


only one man (roger walker) showing signs of recession.


You step into any gym these days and you'll notice a relationship between muscular size, acne, and baldness or propensity to wear a hat indoors ;). Its so common now among the steroid using community there are memes about men having to run "hat game" 24/7 after using steroids to pretend they still have hair.

As for the specific drugs, NO, no one uses DHT because it is deactivated in the skeletal muscle. Many of the drugs used are derived from DHT but this is meaningless when it comes to their actions. For example, one of the most benign androgens, oxandrolone (better known by its tradename Anavar) is derived from DHT. Even some of the supposedly "massively androgenic" drugs are in fact, much less potent than DHT. Such as drostanolone propionate (Masteron) which was used as a breast cancer drug for a short time, preferentially, because it was less masculinizing than an equal dose of testosterone propionate.
Read "Hair Like a Fox." All of the points that you mention are addressed in that book. You might find it interesting.
 

LCohen

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Thats not a "clear" relationship at all. Androgens are obviously and irrefutably involved in MPB, there is such an abundance of evidence on this, spanning some 40+ years of work that its amazing to me people still attempt to argue this like all the researchers involved are just dumb monkeys flinging ***t at a board and seeing what sticks, while all the amateur internet researchers who flip flop with a change of the wind are all brilliant geniuses. The very pilot experiments that discovered the role of androgens in balding have never been clearly refuted by such geniuses. For example, why does baldness not happen in men with a congenital deficiency of 5AR? Why does baldness completely arrest after castration, and resume when testosterone is administered?

As for bodybuilders, the sport of bodybuilding has got increasingly more bald across the board as dosages have increased and drugs like testosterone have become the mainstay use of competitiors, replacing nandrolone.:
heres a lineup in 2016:
las-vegas-nevada-usa-17th-sep-2016-bodybuilders-compete-in-the-mr-GYN97R.jpg


the prevalence of shorn scalps in bbing these days is sure as hell not because its fashionable.

Olympia 1980:
1980.1.jpg


only one man (roger walker) showing signs of recession.


You step into any gym these days and you'll notice a relationship between muscular size, acne, and baldness or propensity to wear a hat indoors ;). Its so common now among the steroid using community there are memes about men having to run "hat game" 24/7 after using steroids to pretend they still have hair.

As for the specific drugs, NO, no one uses DHT because it is deactivated in the skeletal muscle. Many of the drugs used are derived from DHT but this is meaningless when it comes to their actions. For example, one of the most benign androgens, oxandrolone (better known by its tradename Anavar) is derived from DHT. Even some of the supposedly "massively androgenic" drugs are in fact, much less potent than DHT. Such as drostanolone propionate (Masteron) which was used as a breast cancer drug for a short time, preferentially, because it was less masculinizing than an equal dose of testosterone propionate.

My point isn't creating an argument. You are the one who wants to start it, calm down first.

I know that HRT therapy and castration can stop/reverse baldness. I even posted that to haidut. Males Regrow Hair During MtF Transition - DHT Bad? Skull Growth = MPB?

There are many cases that (you can find it on internet) person have low T and low DHT and still have MPB.

Here is a study showing Testosterone therapy regrows hair in women: Improvement in scalp hair growth in androgen-deficient women treated with testosterone: a questionnaire study

Androgen (T, DHT) deficiency is associated with metabolic syndrome. Metabolic syndrome is associated strongly with baldness: Androgenetic alopecia, metabolic syndrome, and insulin resistance: Is there any association? A case–control study

As the person ages, T-DHT decreases while balding increases.

That "40+ years of research" still marketing people toxics like Finasteride and Minoxidil. And yet there's no solution. Those drugs f*cks up your whole body, as soon as you quit them you lose your hair too.
 
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In Hair Like a Fox, what is the evidence that estrogen causes hair loss, or cortisol causes hair loss? The claim that PUFAs and serotonin cause hair loss are partially built on top of that, and progesterone is presented as good for hair due to interpretation of hormone levels in pregnancy and because of it's anti-estrogen effects. Don't estrogen and progesterone both rise during pregnancy?

The study purported to show that serotonin inhibits progesterone was talking about granulosa cells, which is not particularly relevant. Melatonin did the same in that very study, and has been shown to help with alopecia :
Topical Melatonin for Treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia

In one study, not sure if that one was cited, progesterone was said to reduce shedding without regrowing any hair. It wasn't an actual study, but a review of some guy who claimed this to be true, proposing to do clinical trials.

I suppose it's true that castration lowers estrogen levels but the study that was cited didn't seem to talk about castration. May be a mistake of me.
 

tallglass13

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Drug so-called "anti-androgenic" Spironolactone has lot of anti-fibrotic, heart-friendly effects on body. Aldosterone causes calcification, Spiro is antagonist of aldosterone receptor.

Some Estradiol (E2) studies show that Estradiol has some anti-fibrotic & anti-calcification effects. Estradiol can bind estrogen receptor beta. This receptor have lot of beneficial effects on body. It actually lowers estrogen while it's a estrogen receptor.

Estrone (E1) is the real enemy for hair. It binds estrogen receptor alpha causes lot of inflammatory actions. Even breast cancer.

If DHT binds to estrogen receptor beta, it won't cause hair loss. It's called 3b-diol metabolite. You need a healthy thyroid for this.

If your thyroid isn't healthy, DHT will be converter into 3a-diol. Which binds to estrogen alpha receptor and cause hair loss..
@LCohen , here is a study that correlates with what you're saying about 3a diol

Testicular Disorders
Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, inWilliams Textbook of Endocrinology (Thirteenth Edition), 2016

Catabolism of Testosterone.
The primary site of catabolism of circulating testosterone and 5α-DHT is the liver.125Testosterone and 5α-DHT are taken up in the liver, and testosterone is converted to an inactive metabolite, 5β-DHT, by the enzyme 5β-reductase. Both 5α- and 5β-DHT then undergo 3α-reduction by the enzyme 3α-HSD to form 3α,5α-androstanediol (also called 3α-diol) and 3α,5β-androstanediol, respectively; this is followed by 17β-reduction by the enzyme 17β-HSD to form androsterone and etiocholanolone as catabolic products. In peripheral tissues such as skin, 5α-DHT may also be converted to 3α-diol, which is further metabolized in the liver.

In the liver, testosterone, DHT, 3α-androstanediols, androsterone, and etiocholanolone undergo glucuronidation and, to a lesser degree, sulfation to form more hydrophilic conjugates that are released into circulation and excreted in urine and bile. Metabolic inactivation of testosterone primarily involves its conversion to metabolites such as testosterone (about 50%), androsterone (20%), and etiolocholanolone (20%) glucuronides (as well as sulfates) and lesser conversion to 3α-diol glucuronides (3α-diol Gs). Because 3α-diol comes mostly from skin, blood and urine measurements of 3α-diol G have been used as a marker of peripheral androgen action.125 In men with 5α-reductase deficiency, 3α-diol G concentrations are reduced. The amount of body hair and acne correlates with 3α-diol G level
 

LCohen

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@LCohen , here is a study that correlates with what you're saying about 3a diol

Testicular Disorders
Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, inWilliams Textbook of Endocrinology (Thirteenth Edition), 2016

Catabolism of Testosterone.
The primary site of catabolism of circulating testosterone and 5α-DHT is the liver.125Testosterone and 5α-DHT are taken up in the liver, and testosterone is converted to an inactive metabolite, 5β-DHT, by the enzyme 5β-reductase. Both 5α- and 5β-DHT then undergo 3α-reduction by the enzyme 3α-HSD to form 3α,5α-androstanediol (also called 3α-diol) and 3α,5β-androstanediol, respectively; this is followed by 17β-reduction by the enzyme 17β-HSD to form androsterone and etiocholanolone as catabolic products. In peripheral tissues such as skin, 5α-DHT may also be converted to 3α-diol, which is further metabolized in the liver.

In the liver, testosterone, DHT, 3α-androstanediols, androsterone, and etiocholanolone undergo glucuronidation and, to a lesser degree, sulfation to form more hydrophilic conjugates that are released into circulation and excreted in urine and bile. Metabolic inactivation of testosterone primarily involves its conversion to metabolites such as testosterone (about 50%), androsterone (20%), and etiolocholanolone (20%) glucuronides (as well as sulfates) and lesser conversion to 3α-diol glucuronides (3α-diol Gs). Because 3α-diol comes mostly from skin, blood and urine measurements of 3α-diol G have been used as a marker of peripheral androgen action.125 In men with 5α-reductase deficiency, 3α-diol G concentrations are reduced. The amount of body hair and acne correlates with 3α-diol G level

Yep, Thanks brother.
 

schultz

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Why does baldness completely arrest after castration, and resume when testosterone is administered?

Testosterone can convert to estrogen.

Also, bodybuilders take all kinds of crap, including insulin and GH.

That "40+ years of research" still marketing people toxics like Finasteride and Minoxidil.

And pharmaceutical companies might try to quash certain lines of research, or distort things, in order to secure a product that makes them half a billion dollars a year.
 

GorillaHead

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And what is a healthy Thyroid? Can this be achieved whit T4 only?

Also, men that had a flat forehead don’t go bald, women had flat foreheads, and bald man had sloped foreheads.


Isnt the sloped forhead due to the browridge?
 

Orangeyouglad

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@LCohen , here is a study that correlates with what you're saying about 3a diol

Testicular Disorders
Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, inWilliams Textbook of Endocrinology (Thirteenth Edition), 2016

Catabolism of Testosterone.
The primary site of catabolism of circulating testosterone and 5α-DHT is the liver.125Testosterone and 5α-DHT are taken up in the liver, and testosterone is converted to an inactive metabolite, 5β-DHT, by the enzyme 5β-reductase. Both 5α- and 5β-DHT then undergo 3α-reduction by the enzyme 3α-HSD to form 3α,5α-androstanediol (also called 3α-diol) and 3α,5β-androstanediol, respectively; this is followed by 17β-reduction by the enzyme 17β-HSD to form androsterone and etiocholanolone as catabolic products. In peripheral tissues such as skin, 5α-DHT may also be converted to 3α-diol, which is further metabolized in the liver.

In the liver, testosterone, DHT, 3α-androstanediols, androsterone, and etiocholanolone undergo glucuronidation and, to a lesser degree, sulfation to form more hydrophilic conjugates that are released into circulation and excreted in urine and bile. Metabolic inactivation of testosterone primarily involves its conversion to metabolites such as testosterone (about 50%), androsterone (20%), and etiolocholanolone (20%) glucuronides (as well as sulfates) and lesser conversion to 3α-diol glucuronides (3α-diol Gs). Because 3α-diol comes mostly from skin, blood and urine measurements of 3α-diol G have been used as a marker of peripheral androgen action.125 In men with 5α-reductase deficiency, 3α-diol G concentrations are reduced. The amount of body hair and acne correlates with 3α-diol G level

So if 3a-diol G levels are correlated with hairloss and body hair, it would make sense to try and lower them right?

What are things that lower 3a-diol G?
 

BeefPineapple

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MTF transgenders regrow hair. And Aromatase inhibitors users lose it. Progesterone may or may not be key.

Alternative ways to reduce testosterone and DHT to castrate levels while preserving masculinity:

- ru58841 (topical). But it doesn’t do anything to correct low estradiol which is essential for hair elongation. Plus excipients could be inflammatory. Plus it doesn’t do much with regards to progesterone.

- nandrolone (NPP,Deca). Supplemental E2 might be needed depending on patient symptomatology. Or supplemental soy??

What’s interesting about nandrolone, besides its obvious muscle building properties, is that it dramatically corrects hyperglycemia which is the root cause of inflammation as mentioned in this PerfectHairHealth blog post. Bonus points: binds to the progesterone receptor. There is a reason why golden era bodybuilders had perfect skin and hair and this reason was Deca. Fight “Deca ****” with enough estrogen for libido (low estrogen is lethal down there)

Topical argan/jojoba/castor/almond oil may contribute to moisturizing proper.
 
Last edited:

BeefPineapple

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:D

this is hilarious! From one of these threads

I have literally no idea why anyone is even working on ANYTHING ELSE besides this. We already see that antiandrogens stop hair loss and that estradiol regrows it, why are you f*****g researching stupid bull**** like stem cell DP piloxifoligainreplicel growth stimulans bullshitawdioajfseogijnslbb. f***. Me. Some kind of estrogen that is metabolised once it hits the bloodstream or some sh*t. And binds to the hair follicle. Are you ivory tower egghead ************* listening?

I wanna hug that guy lol
 

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