Estrogen, Not Androgens, May Be The Cause Of Baldness

[wavelength123]

With respect to castration, I think the fundamental thing that Danny Roddy contributed in his original book Hair like a fox is the understanding that castrates also have typically very low serotonin, prolactin and estrogen. I haven't read the book in about a year, but I think I will read it again tonight.

His thinking has progressed a lot since then, and he knows a lot more, but it's always impressive to see how solid and how well that book has held up since 2013. He doesn't get enough credit for his solid research work. Back then there was nobody who was thinking about hair loss the way he did.

well I’m not impressed by his real world results and I distrust anyone who thinks that the androgen theory is just a big pharma conspiracy. The weight of the evidence is on the side of all receptors being over activated, of which AR seems to be the most critical, alongside key enzymes going bonkers such as 5ar. Which does explain why men bald somewhat more than women, why ARKO mice don’t go bald when exposed to DHT, and so on. Whether insulin or igf1 or cortisol or adrenaline or serotonin or prolactin or xenoestrogens or PUFAs are (Part of) the root cause of the hypoxia-apoptosis combo is to be debated yet the end point remains fairly in favor of big bad pharma guys and the best regrowth on r/tressless comes from guys using the “big 3” and eating reasonably well... sometimes. Mostly they dgaf tho.

examples:

Pretty incredible progress after 22 months of fin and min, (1x per day use,) plus focus on protein macros and general good eating habits. Front hairline has always been fairly high, mostly experienced thinning in the back. Age 30 now, 28 in before pictures. Wish I had started sooner! : tressless

Finasteride and Minoxidil 2 MONTH update. From Norwood 3 Back To My Juvenile Hairline! : tressless

of course, those are cherry picked. But what else beside FUE transplants yields this kind of progress?

What Roddy did, and what most people do, is run with an idea and line up all the facts that side with it. Unfortunately, real life big pharma results tend to conflict with those beautiful ideas, and yelling Follow the Monies doesn’t change those facts much.

 

[mrchibbs]

well I’m not impressed by his real world results and I distrust anyone who thinks that the androgen theory is just a big pharma conspiracy. The weight of the evidence is on the side of all receptors being over activated, of which AR seems to be the most critical, alongside key enzymes going bonkers such as 5ar. Which does explain why men bald somewhat more than women, why ARKO mice don’t go bald when exposed to DHT, and so on. Whether insulin or igf1 or cortisol or adrenaline or serotonin or prolactin or xenoestrogens or PUFAs are (Part of) the root cause of the hypoxia-apoptosis combo is to be debated yet the end point remains fairly in favor of big bad pharma guys and the best regrowth on r/tressless comes from guys using the “big 3” and eating reasonably well... sometimes. Mostly they dgaf tho.

examples:

Pretty incredible progress after 22 months of fin and min, (1x per day use,) plus focus on protein macros and general good eating habits. Front hairline has always been fairly high, mostly experienced thinning in the back. Age 30 now, 28 in before pictures. Wish I had started sooner! : tressless

Finasteride and Minoxidil 2 MONTH update. From Norwood 3 Back To My Juvenile Hairline! : tressless

of course, those are cherry picked. But what else beside FUE transplants yields this kind of progress?

What Roddy did, and what most people do, is run with an idea and line up all the facts that side with it. Unfortunately, real life big pharma results tend to conflict with those beautiful ideas, and yelling Follow the Monies doesn’t change those facts much.

Well I feel like I'm repeating myself forever, but things like spironolactone, cyproterone acetate, antihistamines, falling in a fireplace, massages, derma rolling are part of the things I've mentioned before.

I'll stick to my guns here, I think Danny Roddy gets a bad rep and no one has done better research on the topic of hair loss, and people should read and re-read his articles. To my original point, about castrates, he made great observations which no one talks about. Why do we focus on the castrates being deficient in DHT and never talk about serotonin, prolactin and estrogen. And yeah as I've explained before, I think the androgen theory, if not a conspiracy, is a load of bollocks. It's my opinion at the end of the day.

 

[Risingfire]

well I’m not impressed by his real world results and I distrust anyone who thinks that the androgen theory is just a big pharma conspiracy. The weight of the evidence is on the side of all receptors being over activated, of which AR seems to be the most critical, alongside key enzymes going bonkers such as 5ar. Which does explain why men bald somewhat more than women, why ARKO mice don’t go bald when exposed to DHT, and so on. Whether insulin or igf1 or cortisol or adrenaline or serotonin or prolactin or xenoestrogens or PUFAs are (Part of) the root cause of the hypoxia-apoptosis combo is to be debated yet the end point remains fairly in favor of big bad pharma guys and the best regrowth on r/tressless comes from guys using the “big 3” and eating reasonably well... sometimes. Mostly they dgaf tho.

examples:

Pretty incredible progress after 22 months of fin and min, (1x per day use,) plus focus on protein macros and general good eating habits. Front hairline has always been fairly high, mostly experienced thinning in the back. Age 30 now, 28 in before pictures. Wish I had started sooner! : tressless

Finasteride and Minoxidil 2 MONTH update. From Norwood 3 Back To My Juvenile Hairline! : tressless

of course, those are cherry picked. But what else beside FUE transplants yields this kind of progress?

What Roddy did, and what most people do, is run with an idea and line up all the facts that side with it. Unfortunately, real life big pharma results tend to conflict with those beautiful ideas, and yelling Follow the Monies doesn’t change those facts much.

Have you taken finasteride?

 

[wavelength123]

Have you taken finasteride?

On dutasteride right now. “Front loaded” for 2 weeks taking .5mg daily which drops DHT by 90% as per the pharmaco dynamic studies in the motive. Now sticking to .5mg Twice weekly. I’ve shared my before/after nuking DHT pictures already.

4 months without DHT & Zero sides. As the study below says, don’t be super low T, which I’m not.

Relationship among serum testosterone, sexual function, and response to treatment in men receiving dutasteride for benign prostatic hyperplasia - PubMed

 

[Risingfire]

On dutasteride right now. “Front loaded” for 2 weeks taking .5mg daily which drops DHT by 90% as per the pharmaco dynamic studies in the motive. Now sticking to .5mg Twice weekly. I’ve shared my before/after nuking DHT pictures already.

4 months without DHT & Zero sides. As the study below says, don’t be super low T, which I’m not.

Relationship among serum testosterone, sexual function, and response to treatment in men receiving dutasteride for benign prostatic hyperplasia - PubMed

Best of luck. I hope nothing bad happens. For lots of us it has

 

[wavelength123]

Thank you. Well to be fully honest if I could get my hands on something topical that doesn’t leave my hair extremely greasy, I’d go for that, but I haven’t found anything remotely satisfying. It’s either irritating (PG) or oily (liposomal products), and I dislike the minutia that’s required for subpar results.

 

[tallglass13]

On dutasteride right now. “Front loaded” for 2 weeks taking .5mg daily which drops DHT by 90% as per the pharmaco dynamic studies in the motive. Now sticking to .5mg Twice weekly. I’ve shared my before/after nuking DHT pictures already.

4 months without DHT & Zero sides. As the study below says, don’t be super low T, which I’m not.

Relationship among serum testosterone, sexual function, and response to treatment in men receiving dutasteride for benign prostatic hyperplasia - PubMed

Good luck with Dut....BTW, where excactly are your pics, what thread?

 

[tallglass13]

Thank you. Well to be fully honest if I could get my hands on something topical that doesn’t leave my hair extremely greasy, I’d go for that, but I haven’t found anything remotely satisfying. It’s either irritating (PG) or oily (liposomal products), and I dislike the minutia that’s required for subpar results.

Maybe you can try opening up all the capsules and making your own topical with either DMSO or Ethanol

 

[wavelength123]

Wouldn’t dmso be greasy too? Ethanol is an option. Thanks for the tips.

As of the pictures I actually forgot where they are on this forum, I think in the “solid bro science” thread. I was experimenting with a nandrolone derivative for a few weeks at the time (transdermal Trestolone) but quickly stopped.


A82-A74-C4-E22-E-46-C3-BB1-D-20-BB04-ABACCC
E93358-F3-CDEE-421-A-B1-B2-6-ADFE6493-DEB

the “!!” Picture is from mid March. The bushy one was right before barbers reopened last month ha. Just shaved the sides. No hairline progress yet, but it feels good to have zero itch, way less sweaty temples, and overall growth instead of sink clogging sheds

 

[brix]

Your hair looks pretty thick when it’s long. Interesting to me that is the after.

 

[Murtaza]

On dutasteride right now. “Front loaded” for 2 weeks taking .5mg daily which drops DHT by 90% as per the pharmaco dynamic studies in the motive. Now sticking to .5mg Twice weekly. I’ve shared my before/after nuking DHT pictures already.

4 months without DHT & Zero sides. As the study below says, don’t be super low T, which I’m not.

Relationship among serum testosterone, sexual function, and response to treatment in men receiving dutasteride for benign prostatic hyperplasia - PubMed

i dont even know you, yet i honestly feel bad for you. that drug is gonna ruin you in ways you cant imagine. maybe you wont see the onset of its deleterious effects right away but down the road they are gonna become more and more obvious. i sincerely hope you find something else that works for you. much love

 

[wavelength123]

i dont even know you, yet i honestly feel bad for you. that drug is gonna ruin you in ways you cant imagine. maybe you wont see the onset of its deleterious effects right away but down the road they are gonna become more and more obvious. i sincerely hope you find something else that works for you. much love

Ugh okay bud. Nothing’s planned ahead but more awesomeness in the future for me tyvm I don’t need e-love lmao. I’m sorry if your hormonal status got out of whack and your life depends on DHT.

So... back on topic: two studies that might be interesting for all y’all

Estrogen Leads to Reversible Hair Cycle Retardation through Inducing Premature Catagen and Maintaining Telogen

The normal anagen lasts from 2 to as long as 7 years. Whereas, in men with androgenetic alopecia, the duration of anagen will decrease from years to months or even weeks [20]. As the result, the hair shafts are much thinner than normal. Then the terminal hairs were replaced by vellus hairs. Contrast to the shortened anagen, the duration of telogen remained the same or lengthens. The ratio of anagen/telogen hairs decreases (from a normal 6 to 8∶1 ratio to an abnormal 0.1 to 3∶1 ratio) [21]. The hairs of telogen stage are more easily to be plucked when brushing or shampooing. The consequences of androgen dysregulation are much thinner hairs and much more telogen hairs, and these hairs highly tend to shed. The progressive hair cycle changes caused androgenetic alopecia finally.

Estrogen receptor alpha, but not estrogen receptor beta, is involved in the regulation of the hair follicle cycling as well as the thickness of epidermis in male mice - PubMed

*Orchidectomy induced a synchronized anagen phase of the hair follicles*, which was inhibited by 17beta-estradiol treatment in wild-type and BERKO mice, but not in ERKO and DERKO mice. Furthermore, 17beta-estradiol treatment increased the thickness of epidermis in wild-type and BERKO mice, but not in ERKO and DERKO. This study demonstrates that estrogen is of importance for the regulation of hair follicle cycling and epidermal thickness in male mice. The effect on hair follicle cycling is caused by an estrogen receptor alpha mediated inhibition of telogen-anagen transition and the effect of estrogen to increase epidermal thickness is associated with an estrogen receptor alpha mediated increase in the proliferative rate of the keratinocytes in the basal cell layer of the epidermis.

Step 1) mimic the hormonal status of a castrate at the scalp level - side note, children have very high shbg and so do rural Asians with their very low free E2 (source Evidence for Geographical and Racial Variation in Serum Sex Steroid Levels in Older Men look at figure 3! Insane)

Step 2) ...?

Step 3) profit

And I’ll agree that Progesterone seems protective. Considering that we’re being taught to “first, do no harm”, I’d rather remove the offending hormones rather than pray for the best from supplemental protective hormones. Orchitectomy would definitely suppression corticosteroids and mineralocorticoids somewhat so - that won’t hurt.

 

[Andman]

Ugh okay bud. Nothing’s planned ahead but more awesomeness in the future for me tyvm I don’t need e-love lmao. I’m sorry if your hormonal status got out of whack and your life depends on DHT.

this is unintentionally hilarious. good luck with that fin tho

 

[outcast1979]

I began losing hair when I was most depressed. In a dark place.... reading dark texts. Not sure if my hair will ever grow back but as I feel lighter, my hair looks better. I think the pcos thing is related to lymph and liver congestion which is also the place where emotions are stored...

I think I posted something I took from another forum regarding pcos, mpb and cellulite. Will have to dig it up again but some of it resonated with me

I can confirm that,when my first waves of depression hit me along with anxiety hair turn dry along with itching and hairloss,like something change inside me for good,before all this i was a guy without knowing what stress is.

 

[Waynish]

I'll have to find the Taoist text that talks about this sometime, but it is clearly a process and not a molecule causing baldness. The rush men get to the head after sexual activity causes a substance (Jing) to "burn the roots" of the hair. There is also a similar process in those with itchy scalps and those with build up of sebum that starves or damages the hair. Where this stuff is thickest and where it sticks around the longest is where the hair is lost first it seems; this is why the massage & microneedling can help turn over the tissue that contain it.

 

[GorillaHead]

I think subscribing to dht causing hairloss or estrogen causing hairloss will get you no where.

nothing is more powerful than that study that did a biopsy on balding and non balding scalp tissues.

On frontal balding scalp tissue they found that aromatase was severely downregulated yet those same scalps had higher aromatase expression in the back of their heads.

non balding scalp had 4 times the aromatase expression.

The issue is imbalance. The cause should be the focus. Why does the scalp tissue suddenly upregulate 5ar too much and downregulate aromatase too much.

 

[PaRa]

I think subscribing to dht causing hairloss or estrogen causing hairloss will get you no where.

nothing is more powerful than that study that did a biopsy on balding and non balding scalp tissues.

On frontal balding scalp tissue they found that aromatase was severely downregulated yet those same scalps had higher aromatase expression in the back of their heads.

non balding scalp had 4 times the aromatase expression.

The issue is imbalance. The cause should be the focus. Why does the scalp tissue suddenly upregulate 5ar too much and downregulate aromatase too much.

Because low T = low androgenic potential so more 5ar activity to compensate (bc DHT has more androgenic activity than T) and less aromatase bc T to E lowers androgenic potential
i really think that for most it’s a low testosterone high cortisol issue

i myself 22 am balding, MBP, even tho my IGF1 is on the very low side and I have ******* low T and free T and High morning cortisol

 

[GorillaHead]

Because low T = low androgenic potential so more 5ar activity to compensate (bc DHT has more androgenic activity than T) and less aromatase bc T to E lowers androgenic potential
i really think that for most it’s a low testosterone high cortisol issue

i myself 22 am balding, MBP, even tho my IGF1 is on the very low side and I have ******* low T and free T and High morning cortisol

Could be. Although i seem to recall the STAR protein was upregulate in scalp tissue of AgA gotta focus on tissue Levels.

Which then one must ask how does one increase steroidgenesis of the skin. but honestly star is already doing that

 

[johnwester130]

Could be. Although i seem to recall the STAR protein was upregulate in scalp tissue of AgA gotta focus on tissue Levels.

Which then one must ask how does one increase steroidgenesis of the skin. but honestly star is already doing that

Aromatase and 3HSD incidence

O#27 Aromatase and oxidative 3a-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases are present in human hair follicles and regulate intrafollicular DHT levels Rolf Hoffmann. Dept of Dermatology, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is the most important trigger of androgen-dependent hair...

www.hairlosstalk.com

US6020327A - Control of hair growth - Google Patents

A method for treating hair loss is disclosed by topically adminstering an aromatase inhibitor to a mammal, including humans, on the area to be treated.

patents.google.com

 

[outcast1979]

Aromatase and 3HSD incidence

O#27 Aromatase and oxidative 3a-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases are present in human hair follicles and regulate intrafollicular DHT levels Rolf Hoffmann. Dept of Dermatology, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is the most important trigger of androgen-dependent hair...

www.hairlosstalk.com

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6020327A/en[/URLL

http://

Aromatase and 3HSD incidence

O#27 Aromatase and oxidative 3a-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases are present in human hair follicles and regulate intrafollicular DHT levels Rolf Hoffmann. Dept of Dermatology, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is the most important trigger of androgen-dependent hair...

www.hairlosstalk.com

US6020327A - Control of hair growth - Google Patents

A method for treating hair loss is disclosed by topically adminstering an aromatase inhibitor to a mammal, including humans, on the area to be treated.

patents.google.com

Take a look on this,searching for pssd bring me to this paper https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/390083.This paragraph is from the paper. Licorice root (Glycyrrhiza glabra) is also able to affect androgen metabolism in human [13]. Various studies have demonstrated that licorice blocks the activity of 3-β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3HSD), 17- hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17HSD) and 17–20 lyase [13, 15] and stimulates the activity of aromatase [16-18]. All these enzymes are involved in the synthesis and/or metabolism of androgens and estrogens. A possible compensatory mechanism is the binding of glycyrrhetinic acid to sex binding globulin, thus increasing free testosterone.Could be a two way cure,licorice also cures pssd in many individuals