Testosterone therapy (TRT) reverses hair loss (in women)

haidut

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The evidence undermining the fake/corrupt hypothesis of "androgenic alopecia" keeps accumulating. I really wish the study below was conducted in men instead of women, since its findings would have probably finally put an end to the debate as to whether androgens promote or inhibit hair growth. However, even in women the findings are quite important as the study itself states that "androgenic" alopecia is found in women too and the explanation given is the same detrimental effect androgens supposedly have on hair. The example usually given are women with PCOS and other "hyperandrogenic" conditions who frequently have hair loss not unlike the one occurring in males. The official story is that PCOS is driven by elevated androgens, despite the multitude of studies demonstrating that estrogen is the much more likely culprit, and that estrogen administration reliably causes PCOS in animal models. As it happens, estrogens have been demonstrated to cause hair loss and anti-estrogenic substances have been shown to reverse that hair loss. In fact, even the perennial villain DHT has been shown to increase hair growth when used in physiological concentrations. Testosterone has a known anti-estrogenic effect (despite its ability to aromatize into estradiol), which further corroborates the findings of the study below as legitimate. The dosage of T used in women was about 133mg given over a period of about 28 months. So, for ease of calculation purposes, the women received 5mg T per month and the administration was subcutaneous. Since males produce about 10-30 times more T than women, the dosage for males would be in the range of 50mg-150mg monthly, which is certainly a physiological range. Other interesting findings of the study include the fact that before starting the therapy women with lower T levels had more hair loss, and after T treatment the women with higher BMI responded more poorly or not at all to the T therapy. The latter finding once again implicates estrogen (and cortisol) in hair loss. Finally, the study claims that not a single woman receiving T therapy reported hair thinning and/or loss, despite their blood T reaching levels 4 times higher than normal! The combination of all of these findings, from an intervention study, leaves virtually no chance of survival for the "androgenic alopecia" hypothesis.

Improvement in scalp hair growth in androgen-deficient women treated with testosterone: a questionnaire study
"...In view of the widely held concept that androgens have a deleterious effect on scalp hair growth, the results of our study were unexpected. The study was not designed to investigate specifically the response of hair growth to androgen replacement therapy, and we recognize the limitations of a questionnaire in providing an objective measure of hair growth. To confirm our findings, formal assessment of hair growth, e.g. using methods such as a phototrichogram, would be needed. It is possible, for example, that a general positive effect on well-being of testosterone replacement misled subjects into believing that their hair growth had also improved. However, the fact that hair growth responded in the opposite direction to that expected and that patients reporting hair loss prior to therapy had lower testosterone levels than those not reporting hair loss does provide support for the veracity of the observation. Although a patient’s perception of hair thickness and texture is subjective, only one of 284 female patients was unsure of hair loss/thinning prior to testosterone therapy. Previous studies have shown that self-perception correlates with investigator assessment and photography (Dr T.L. Dawson, personal communication). In our experience, women are acutely aware of changes in their hair. Significantly, no patient in this cohort, treated with continuous testosterone for over 1 year, reported ‘hair loss or thinning’ despite average serum testosterone levels of over 300 ng dL−1, four times the upper limit of normal for endogenous production, and sufficient to cause an increase in facial hair growth in the majority."
"...This is consistent with our findings – women who reported ‘no hair regrowth’ on testosterone therapy had significantly higher BMIs compared with patients who reported ‘hair regrowth’ on testosterone therapy."
 

ALS

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So what is more effective for women who have estrogen dominance - progesterone or testosterone?

Can both be taken at the same time?

Asking for myself - have Hashimoto's.
 

GorillaHead

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@haidut Ur idea that estrogen cause hairloss is way to simplistic. Serum and tissue hormones are diff.

one of the most powerful studies on AGA discovered that the scalps of those with hairloss had 4 times less Aromatase than those with hair.

based on all the research i have done it very likely that a balance between 5ar and aromatase are needed to grow hair. That ratio is yet to be discovered.

serum estrogens def cause hairloss.
The medical community actually recognizes hypogonadism as a cause of thinning hair. So its not a suprise or new that testosterone grows hair. Testosterone suppresses the acth axis.

Without hormones hair doesnt grow.
 

Risingfire

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@haidut Ur idea that estrogen cause hairloss is way to simplistic. Serum and tissue hormones are diff.

one of the most powerful studies on AGA discovered that the scalps of those with hairloss had 4 times less Aromatase than those with hair.

based on all the research i have done it very likely that a balance between 5ar and aromatase are needed to grow hair. That ratio is yet to be discovered.

serum estrogens def cause hairloss.
The medical community actually recognizes hypogonadism as a cause of thinning hair. So its not a suprise or new that testosterone grows hair. Testosterone suppresses the acth axis.

Without hormones hair doesnt grow.
No not even close. I have low serum estrogen and higher tissue estrogen but I'm bald.
 

GorillaHead

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Prolactin and estrone tell the story of tissue estrogen.

Prolactin is almost universally raised in balding males and females
Doesn’t answer my question I am going to assume u did not have ur scalp tissue aroMatase levels checked as this cost a huge amount of money.

also prolactin upregulates androgen activity only adding more fuel to the fire that high androgen levels are def associated with balding scalp tissue assuming prolactin is high in balding tissue. No studies to show so far. But I have read of a few anecdotes that dopamine agonists have thickened hair of members here. But I have read that in men prolactin inhibits hair growth but in women the opposite
 
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haidut

haidut

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@haidut Ur idea that estrogen cause hairloss is way to simplistic. Serum and tissue hormones are diff.

one of the most powerful studies on AGA discovered that the scalps of those with hairloss had 4 times less Aromatase than those with hair.

based on all the research i have done it very likely that a balance between 5ar and aromatase are needed to grow hair. That ratio is yet to be discovered.

serum estrogens def cause hairloss.
The medical community actually recognizes hypogonadism as a cause of thinning hair. So its not a suprise or new that testosterone grows hair. Testosterone suppresses the acth axis.

Without hormones hair doesnt grow.

If this study with T was the only one to draw conclusions from, then I'd give you the benefit of the doubt as indeed T can convert into estrogen in the scalp and at least in theory that "vindicates" estrogen. However, when another study using topical DHT on the scalp directly demonstrates increased hair growth, there is very little left to argue about.

@Risingfire
 
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haidut

haidut

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So what is more effective for women who have estrogen dominance - progesterone or testosterone?

Can both be taken at the same time?

Asking for myself - have Hashimoto's.

A combination of both is probably better than either one alone. I'd use a ratio of at least 3:1 in favor of progesterone.
 

GorillaHead

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If this study with T was the only one to draw conclusions from, then I'd give you the benefit of the doubt as indeed T can convert into estrogen in the scalp and at least in theory that "vindicates" estrogen. However, when another study using topical DHT on the scalp directly demonstrates increased hair growth, there is very little left to argue about.

@Risingfire
Well u see i dont disagree with this. Dht grows hair. I know that. What i am saying is when the balance between aromatase and 5ar is off then hair may not grow anymore.
At least thats my theory.

because how else do u explain high aromatase expression in areas of growth.

I beleive that both 5ar and aromatase are needed for growth.

my theory is that higher aromatase expression than 5ar will lead to more female like hair growth and texture. While men have naturally higher 5ar usually this leads to thicker and in fact faster hair growth than women.

but when the 5ar expression is too much u end up with public like hair ive noticed not just myself but in area near my temples and sideburns the hair has gotten more kinky and the area has thinned.

i dont entirely disagree with u haidut. I am just saying its a balance and thats usually how the body works with all its U curves and all. Its all about balance. Too much hate on aromatase and too much hate on 5ar. Neither are bad. The issue is beyond this hormones. Something causes them to go out of balance.
 

Risingfire

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If this study with T was the only one to draw conclusions from, then I'd give you the benefit of the doubt as indeed T can convert into estrogen in the scalp and at least in theory that "vindicates" estrogen. However, when another study using topical DHT on the scalp directly demonstrates increased hair growth, there is very little left to argue about.

@Risingfire
Yes, I saw that and immediately started rubbing andractim on my head. I also add 10mgs of progesterone rubbed onto my neck.

On one of the Danny Roddy podcasts, either you or Danny asked Ray about DHT use. He said doesn't know about the long term side effects as it's a downstream hormone. Do you think I have anything to worry about if I take small amounts of the youth associated hormones with it? Also, have you tried rubbing 11-keto on your head?
 

Risingfire

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Then you have measure your prolactin and estrone blood levels and assumed estrogen is high in tissues?

My estrone was very high and my estradiol was super low a few years ago. I'm sure taking thyroid and other peaty methods, it has improved on some level.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Yes, I saw that and immediately started rubbing andractim on my head. I also add 10mgs of progesterone rubbed onto my neck.

On one of the Danny Roddy podcasts, either you or Danny asked Ray about DHT use. He said doesn't know about the long term side effects as it's a downstream hormone. Do you think I have anything to worry about if I take small amounts of the youth associated hormones with it? Also, have you tried rubbing 11-keto on your head?

In the last podcast Danny asked him about DHT again and he said if one takes higher doses but uses it with progesterone and/or pregnenolone the risks he is concerned about are greatly reduced. Also, when Danny pressed him about the risks he seemed to reply that they are mostly related to reduced fertility when used in high doses, which is a known side effect of all androgens and not only fully reversible when dosage is lowered/stopped but also preventable when used with pregnenolone/progesterone. Maybe this is why he mentioned using DHT with those precursors, and there is actually evidence to back up that recommendation.

Also, I forgot to add one thing to that DHT post and now I edited it to add that extra bit. Namely - the mice that received topical DHT treatment were NOT castrated. So, the exogenous DHT treatment increased scalp DHT levels way above the physiological levels already present in those mice' scalps. That means even supraphysiological scalp levels of DHT promote hair growth instead of inhibiting it.
 
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ChemHead

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No not even close. I have low serum estrogen and higher tissue estrogen but I'm bald.
There's no way to know you have high tissue estrogen unless you remove a section of tissue from that specific area of the body and check for radiolabeled estrogens or check genetic expression of aromatase and estrogen receptors. The only other way is by observation. For example, you get gynecomastia easily... that's a pretty good indication that you probably have high expression of aromatase and/or high estrogen receptor expression in the breast tissue. However, this only gives you an indication of what's going on in breast tissue... not anywhere else.
 

Risingfire

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In the last podcast Danny asked him about DHT again and he said if one takes higher doses but uses it with progesterone and/or pregnenolone the risks he is concerned about are greatly reduced. Also, when Danny pressed him about the risks he seemed to reply that they are mostly related to reduced fertility when used in high doses, which is a known side effect of all androgens and not only fully reversible when dosage is lowered/stopped but also preventable when used with pregnenolone/progesterone. Maybe this is why he mentioned using DHT with those precursors, and there is actually evidence to back up that recommendation.

Also, I forgot to add one thing to that DHT post and now I edited it to add that extra bit. Namely - the mice that received topical DHT treatment were NOT castrated. So, the exogenous DHT treatment increased scalp DHT levels way above the physiological levels already present in those mice' scalps. That means even supraphysiological scalp levels of DHT promote hair growth instead of inhibiting it.
If I take P4/P5 with it, do you think I can get away with 50mgs of DHT a day without suppression?

I'm going to experiment.
 

johnwester130

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@haidut Ur idea that estrogen cause hairloss is way to simplistic. Serum and tissue hormones are diff.

one of the most powerful studies on AGA discovered that the scalps of those with hairloss had 4 times less Aromatase than those with hair.

based on all the research i have done it very likely that a balance between 5ar and aromatase are needed to grow hair. That ratio is yet to be discovered.

serum estrogens def cause hairloss.
The medical community actually recognizes hypogonadism as a cause of thinning hair. So its not a suprise or new that testosterone grows hair. Testosterone suppresses the acth axis.

Without hormones hair doesnt grow.

 

johnwester130

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If I take P4/P5 with it, do you think I can get away with 50mgs of DHT a day without suppression?

I'm going to experiment.

DHT can regrow hair

 
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