If Androgens Don't Cause Hair Loss How Does One Explain This Study?

[Summer]

There's only one cause and it's iron build-up...

If this is the case why do vegan women who don’t eat iron-rich vegetables like spinach start losing their hair?

 

[Inaut]

Salycic acid and caffeine in Castile soap with some camphor and a few drops of lanolin to prevent excessive drying. Testing it out.

 

[md_a]

I believe that an effective treatment against hair loss is with a solution based on urea (or carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, CO2).

Follicular hyperkeratosis also known as keratosis pilaris (KP), is a skin condition characterized by excessive development of keratin in hair follicles, resulting in rough, cone-shaped, elevated papules. The openings are often closed with a white plug of encrusted sebum. When called phrynoderma the condition is associated with nutritional deficiency or malnourishment….

It can be treated with urea-containing creams, which dissolve the intercellular matrix of the cells of the stratum corneum, promoting desquamation of scaly skin, eventually resulting in softening of hyperkeratotic areas.

Hyperkeratosis - Wikipedia

Urea is an emollient (a skin softening agent). Urea enhances penetration kinetics of vitamin A into the various layers of human skin. Urea may also help to soften thick scalp plaques. Urea is also a source of nitrogen for hair growth.

 

[Scenes]

There's only one cause and it's iron build-up...

Last month you said it was adrenal hormones reacting to a buildup of estrogen.

 

[lampofred]

Last month you said it was adrenal hormones reacting to a buildup of estrogen.

Without estrogen you don't absorb iron from food, estrogen increases iron absorption by 9x-10x. And iron strongly stimulates the adrenals by increasing lipid peroxidation and free radicals (whereas calcium, sugar, which oppose iron's effects, quiet the adrenals). So they are both highly connected, you can't have one without the other. But focusing on reducing iron might be an easier approach than something as broad as lowering estrogen and adrenal hormones.

 

[Lucas]

Without estrogen you don't absorb iron from food, estrogen increases iron absorption by 9x-10x. And iron strongly stimulates the adrenals by increasing lipid peroxidation and free radicals (whereas calcium, sugar, which oppose iron's effects, quiet the adrenals). So they are both highly connected, you can't have one without the other. But focusing on reducing iron might be an easier approach than something as broad as lowering estrogen and adrenal hormones.

What is the ideal ferritin level for a male?

 

[Motif]

And after the first blood donation - when would I probably feel improvement?

 

[Goobz]

Without estrogen you don't absorb iron from food, estrogen increases iron absorption by 9x-10x. And iron strongly stimulates the adrenals by increasing lipid peroxidation and free radicals (whereas calcium, sugar, which oppose iron's effects, quiet the adrenals). So they are both highly connected, you can't have one without the other. But focusing on reducing iron might be an easier approach than something as broad as lowering estrogen and adrenal hormones.

Where are you getting this information? All the evidence I've seen points to estrogen reducing iron absorption, not increasing it.

Estrogen regulates iron homeostasis through governing hepatic hepcidin expression via an estrogen response element. - PubMed - NCBI

17β-Estradiol Inhibits Iron Hormone Hepcidin Through an Estrogen Responsive Element Half-Site

 

[lampofred]

I think from one of RP's books, probably Generative Energy. Also both the links you posted are saying estrogen increases iron absorption. They are saying estrogen turns down hepcidin but hepcidin is responsible for inhibiting iron absorbtion so what ends up happening is that estrogen increases iron absorbtion.

 

[Goobz]

I think from one of RP's books, probably Generative Energy. Also both the links you posted are saying estrogen increases iron absorption. They are saying estrogen turns down hepcidin but hepcidin is responsible for inhibiting iron absorbtion so what ends up happening is that estrogen increases iron absorbtion.

For the first study - in the serum yes, but not in the tissue. When they reduced the estrogen, the serum levels dropped but the amount retained in the organs increased:

"We demonstrated that the hemoglobin content and serum iron level decreased, whereas the tissue iron level in liver and spleen increased "

With the second study - fair enough I may well have misread that one. My point was more that it's more that I doubt it's as simple as "estrogen increases iron absorption 9-10x". That seems highly unlikely to me. May well be wrong, though.

 

[Broco6679]

One thing with DHT is that its upregulated with inflammation, that is a reason why its high on scalp but there are more problems with it. I believe that even DHT can have metabolites or is used in other way when used by somebody with weak/ill body. Try think about it like DHEA even its not the same and DHT should be hard like stone against estrogen or bad environment but I think Haidut wrote that low thyroid or high estrogen leads to a fast deactivation of DHT or something like this. Good example for me is that like 1 year ago, I was unable to tolerate androgens or thyroid. After some changes, I can now tolerate really high amounts without side effects and some hairs seems like to be growing, I can photo it but its not good example because some can tell that some hairs are smaller because it fell out but I know because I am watching it everyday, my bad that I am not making photos everyday….. You have right that after eating something allergic, my hair are curly and weak and antihistamines really help. I would really like to know what happen when you use DHT, like what is with the estrogen in tissue and in blood flow? Is it really flowing searching for space? What about when you have bad liver?

What did you do to all you to tolerate thyroid and androgens?

 

[Luis aguilar]

I believe that an effective treatment against hair loss is with a solution based on urea (or carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, CO2).

Follicular hyperkeratosis also known as keratosis pilaris (KP), is a skin condition characterized by excessive development of keratin in hair follicles, resulting in rough, cone-shaped, elevated papules. The openings are often closed with a white plug of encrusted sebum. When called phrynoderma the condition is associated with nutritional deficiency or malnourishment….

It can be treated with urea-containing creams, which dissolve the intercellular matrix of the cells of the stratum corneum, promoting desquamation of scaly skin, eventually resulting in softening of hyperkeratotic areas.

Hyperkeratosis - Wikipedia

Urea is an emollient (a skin softening agent). Urea enhances penetration kinetics of vitamin A into the various layers of human skin. Urea may also help to soften thick scalp plaques. Urea is also a source of nitrogen for hair growth.

Do you think then urea creams can help with Fordyce spots on the lips? Fordyce spots are basically trapped sebaceous glands under skin resulting in oil bumps over time it sucks

 

[Broken man]

What did you do to all you to tolerate thyroid and androgens?

I focused on liver health but the thing is that after certain point thyroid supplementation Is needed to ipmrove liver too. Bowel health is tied to liver. So transit time and enterohepatic circulation are very important. I think the most important supps that helped me are cascara sagrada, vitamin k, tudca, stearic acid and defibron, carrot every day with capers.

 

[Ponce]

Hello. This study just shows that "androgen receptors" (RECEPTOR) causes those diseases. What exactly means "androgen receptor" when we know Ray’s theory about specific receptors ?

 

[Ponce]

Found in the study :
"Recent studies suggest that balding dermal papilla cells exhibit premature senescence, upregulation of p16INK4a, and nuclear expression of DNA damage markers".

Nothing proves that androgens induce DNA damage markers. Maybe there is an up regulation of "androgen receptors" in response to cellular stress. Especially since the harmfulness of free radicals (especially iron) on sensitive tissues like the hair follicle is well known.

 

[Xemnoraq]

Alot of people here are saying androgens cause hair loss but could it not just be that these androgens are actually aromatising into estrogen and its the estrogen thats causing hairloss, it would be interesting to measure the estrogen concentration relative to the androgen concentration in balding men, from what ive heard from Peat or based on what i understand, things like testosterone and (maybe DHT) are hormones that EASILY aromatise into estrogen, hence why taking steroids or testoterone tends to have an estrogenic backfire effect, and i notice alot of transgender females who take testosterone experience hairloss but i believe this is because it aromatises so easily similar to how when you take too much DHEA it converts into estrogen, and i believe that is because in order to hold a metabolic state of high T & DHT where it doesnt aromatise requires good health (which many people dont have) however progesterone cannot convert into estrogen in any way whatsoever and females who have an abundance of progesterone, keep healthy full hairline despite horrible diet and stress until menopause,

After menopause, progesterone declines and estrogen rises drasticly, it should be noted the amount of balding post menopausal women vs premenopausal, this leads me to strongly believe it is the estrogen driving it and the progesterone preventing it, I personally believe men with a full head of hair have naturally higher progesterone level thats my guess, and just looking at real life examples the evidence suggesting androgens cause hair loss i still feel is very weak, most men ive seen with full heads of hair look far more androgenic than the balding counterparts from personal experience,

Even in castration my guess is the lack of T actually might in turn lower estrogen, im guessing that castration may protect from baldness in the sense that its lowering hormones that easily aromatise, im not sure,

Based on what ive also heard, DHT rises when estrogen rises as a protective mechanism, so again it could be the estrogen being the issue, and the presence of high DHT being blamed while estrogen might be much higher at the same time, because we all know, the adaptive mechanisms of the body are always imperfect.

However if we look at the examples,

Steroids users even though taking so called androgenic substances jack up their estrogen through a negative feedback mechanism, steroid users are known to have high rates of hair loss,

Transgender females who take T are known to experience hair loss and likely again because testosterone easily aromatises into estrogen,

I think Peat has even mentioned testoterone isnt a safe substance to take because of its high conversion to estrogen rate, only in very small small doses, i think he mentioned its safer when taken with progesterone to counter the estrogen feedback,

And like i mentioned women have an abundance of progesterone and experience barely any hair loss, but as soon as that declines and estrogen goes up they all seem to start balding, i cant tell you the number of balding old ladies i see,

So again alot of the things people have mentioned on here blaming androgens i think theres an explaination behind it and i think it comes down to the fact that some of these androgens easily aromatise into estrogen and in my opinion i think its mistaken and overlooked in the sense that the androgens get blamed instead of looking further to see how much of those androgen are being converted to estrogen, we already have concrete evidence estrogen causes hair loss hence aging and hair loss rising with age as estrogen rises with age,

You know what else decline with age? Androgens, so if androgens were the cause of balding shouldnt all old people not have full thick heads of hair? Theyre not really the example of the high androgen type,

I think we should really consider the aromatisation process of androgens and look further into how much of these androgens are being aromatised into estrogen because i think its way overlooked and i think most are just looking at step 1 and blaming androgens without looking deeper into what might actually be going on,

This is just my opinion,

However based on real life examples like i mentioned, i really and truly honestly believe it comes down to progesterone being why women rarely go bald and the lack of in (some) men that can cause baldness, along with men having much higher iron levels causing more reactions with endotoxin histamine, prostaglandins all things known to drive hair loss,

And just from personal experience, using progesterone seems to completely stop my scalp itch and actually stop my hair from falling out, and since applying it to the scalp ive noticed little baby hairs sprouting where previously receeded.

Not trying to argue just sharing my opinion but based on what i’ve seen i really just strongly dont believe that androgens being the cause of hairloss to be true, the evidence just seems to be far on the mainstream simplitic side of science and the claims seem to have weak reasoning behind them,

Again just my opinion, not saying im right just sharing my point of view

 

[schultz]

I think from one of RP's books, probably Generative Energy. Also both the links you posted are saying estrogen increases iron absorption. They are saying estrogen turns down hepcidin but hepcidin is responsible for inhibiting iron absorbtion so what ends up happening is that estrogen increases iron absorbtion.

Agreed. Hepcidin works to prevent iron absorption (apparently, as far as we currently know). Lowered hepcidin would increase iron absorption. It is thought that people with hemochromatosis have low levels of hepcidin.

As far as estrogen and iron go, most studies seem to point to estrogen increasing iron absorption. There are some differences in animals though in regards to this (opposite effects in different animals), so that is something to consider when using rodent data, or animal data in general. Also, it seems estrogen may have some time delay effects on iron status, moving iron in or out of storage (as suggested by @Goobz) and altering the plasma level. It is not exactly clear to me what is going on, but I have several studies on my computer that discuss it so maybe I'll go through them and try to summarize it.

Questioning things is a positive exercise IMO as it gets us to think critically.

Without estrogen you don't absorb iron from food, estrogen increases iron absorption by 9x-10x. And iron strongly stimulates the adrenals by increasing lipid peroxidation and free radicals (whereas calcium, sugar, which oppose iron's effects, quiet the adrenals). So they are both highly connected, you can't have one without the other. But focusing on reducing iron might be an easier approach than something as broad as lowering estrogen and adrenal hormones.

I don't know much about hair-loss, but I think you might be right about iron. It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[milkbasedvegan]

Insulin resistance causes low SHBG which causes hair loss.

This is seen all the time in PCOS women.

No one has a clue how to reverse it because they all eat absolute trash.

serum E2 isn’t a good marker of how estrogenic someone is, prolactin is a better surrogate. Ideal prolactin levels are probably bottom quartile of the normal range and no more than this.

estrogen goes up with inflammation. Not saying it is causal, but it is linked. Inflammation causes hair loss. Insulin resistance causes inflammation, causes fatty liver disease, causes tissue PUFA buildup and more.

 

[GorillaHead]

If androgens cause hairloss how does one explain catchup hairloss when people get off finasteride?

 

[lilsticky]

Has anyone tried Boron for hairloss?