Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) Activates Estrogen Receptor Alpha

[haidut]

Do you disagree with Ray on big pharma's AI? I'm pretty sure he disliked them very much.

I think the steroidal ones like exemestane are less harmful if used properly. Considering the studies on even 5mg having 60% suppression of estrone sulfate (E1S) then they can probably provide a lot of benefit at that low dose combined with low risk. I have not heard reports on joint pain. mood disturbance or fatigue on low-dose exemestane. Once the estrogen is under control and say fat loss occurs then they can probably be stopped and there should not be much rebound since fat loss changes hormonal balance in favor of androgens.

 

[Wagner83]

I think the steroidal ones like exemestane are less harmful if used properly. Considering the studies on even 5mg having 60% suppression of estrone sulfate (E1S) then they can probably provide a lot of benefit at that low dose combined with low risk. I have not heard reports on joint pain. mood disturbance or fatigue on low-dose exemestane. Once the estrogen is under control and say fat loss occurs then they can probably be stopped and there should not be much rebound since fat loss changes hormonal balance in favor of androgens.

Ok thanks, perhaps they have other effects aside from how inhibiting aromatase. Does that mean someone lean won't have high estrogens in your (anesthesiology) book?

 

[Dhair]

Agreed, low dose AI like exemestane is certainly a viable approach assuming the person does not have downregulated 5-AR from finasteride, heavy use of marijuana or opioids, obesity, etc. Then even with AI their DHT synthesis won't move much. DHT is a neusteroid too and vital for male well-being. Most of the positive mental/mood effects of T are due to conversion to DHT. So, there are a number of ways to address the low androgen issue and all I am saying is that a definition of positive result needs to incorporate improvement in DHT synthesis/levels as well.
Androgen Deficiency As The Main Cause Of Chronic Disease In Males
Testosterone rapidly reduces anxiety in male house mice (Mus musculus). - PubMed - NCBI
Testosterone's analgesic, anxiolytic, and cognitive-enhancing effects may be due in part to actions of its 5alpha-reduced metabolites in the hippoc... - PubMed - NCBI
Testosterone's anti-anxiety and analgesic effects may be due in part to actions of its 5alpha-reduced metabolites in the hippocampus. - PubMed - NCBI

Are you aware of any animal study that shows the anxiolytic benefits of testosterone being inhibited even after the animal has stopped taking finasteride? It would be interesting to see something like that because apparently T/DHT treatment arely works for post finasteride syndrome.

 

[haidut]

Are you aware of any animal study that shows the anxiolytic benefits of testosterone being inhibited even after the animal has stopped taking finasteride? It would be interesting to see something like that because apparently T/DHT treatment arely works for post finasteride syndrome.

I don't, unfortunately. Not sure studies like these have been done because mainstream medicine does not believe yet PFS is long-term and related to low levels of neurosteroids.
One reason DHT may not work so well for PFS is that it only addresses the androgen deficiency side of the equation. It does not address the deficiency in allopreganolone seen in PFS. So, ideally, if steroids are to be used to improve the PFS then a combination of 5a-DHP and DHT (or androsterone) makes sense to try.
Btw, here is a thread on a person with PFS apparently recovering with thyroid and they contribute it to the increase in neurosteroid synthesis. That forum has a lot of threads on people getting benefit from androgen and thyroid therapy.
Thyroxine Upregulates 3a-HSD (which converts DHT to 3-Adiol G)

 

[benaoao]

Peat likes juice, he drinks lots of orange juice. He likes milk more then yogurt, and doesn't think yogurt is that great. Never heard him say to eat low GI high fiber carbs...

“Context”

The first 2 are adaptations from his ideas adapted to insulin resistant people. Go ahead and feed an obese patient high juice and fat free milk, it will be glorious. Ray is lean and healthy and wants to keep a high metabolism, of course the foods he chooses are adapted for him.

The latter isn’t from him you’re right. Low GI high fiber foods are the best 2-in-1 combination you could find to keep insulin low and resensitize the patient to this hormone. Get SHBG back up a ton then go full on OJ+milk maybe.

 

[cyclops]

Go ahead and feed an obese patient high juice and fat free milk, it will be glorious.

What do you think would happen if you fed an obese person mainly high-quality skim milk and fresh-squeezed, ripe, fruit juice?

 

[benaoao]

I find it strange that you’re wondering what’s happening when you’re repeatedly spiking insulin/insulin growth factors in insulin resistant people? Using low satiety foods? Knowing that skim milk is supplemented as per the law? What’s next on the list for obesity treatment, milk chocolate? Mexican coke?

 

[cyclops]

I find it strange that you’re wondering what’s happening when you’re repeatedly spiking insulin/insulin growth factors in insulin resistant people? Using low satiety foods? Knowing that skim milk is supplemented as per the law? What’s next on the list for obesity treatment, milk chocolate? Mexican coke?

I don't think fruit juice spikes insulin. I don't really think it's fair to speak on low quality or supplemented milk.

But maybe your right, maybe milk isn't good for obese people and maybe whole fruit is better.

 

[benaoao]

It’s not about thinking or believing... it’s well documented

Oranges and Grapes: More on insulin and glucose after fruit or juice

Satiety is very important when you want people to diet down.

 

[cyclops]

Cool. Good info to have.

Ray has said the following though: "When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories."

Maybe he didn't mean for people with insulin problems though.

 

[benaoao]

It’s nice to have most nutrients in balance and that should work theoretically but the low satiety issue is where people lose adherence to the diet in the real world. The last thing you want is people gulping down ounces of sweet stuff, not feeling satiated, and going for fatty rich meals because of this. You know, the standard American diet. It’s full of fruit juices, eggs and skim milk. Why can’t people stick to just that? Because it’s not satiating. We can blame people for their lack of willpower and all but the reality is they’re chronically sick and drinking anything but water is triggering the wrong brain systems.

Im thinking this: 2 (sweet) potatoes cooked with spinach alongside the eggs and carrots - shall fill you for a much longer time than a quart of oj or milk isn’t it? With roughly the same calories, higher magnesium compared to calcium and phosphorus, lower protein and b12 but one can eat some solid skim dairy. And the fat remains nice and low. Certainly not that far from what Peat is fine with.

 

[cyclops]

Im thinking this: 2 (sweet) potatoes cooked with spinach alongside the eggs and carrots - shall fill you for a much longer time than a quart of oj or milk isn’t it? With roughly the same calories, higher magnesium compared to calcium and phosphorus, lower protein and b12 but one can eat some solid skim dairy. And the fat remains nice and low. Certainly not that far from what Peat is fine with.

Yeah that sounds like a healthy weight loss plan/meal to me, I agree.

 

[rei]

Sure, it might activate estrogen receptor alpha. But how much? An agonist can act like an antagonist if it for instance displaces estrogen from the receptor and thus leads to lesser activation.

 

[haidut]

Sure, it might activate estrogen receptor alpha. But how much? An agonist can act like an antagonist if it for instance displaces estrogen from the receptor and thus leads to lesser activation.

True. I think progesterone does the same with ER (both of them) because it has such strong affinity for it and can displace even estradiol from it, but unlike estradiol progesterone does not activate the ER.

 

[LCohen]

This so-called "estrogen receptor beta" has lot of protective effects. While alpha receptor promotes inflammation and tumor.

Even the most powerful anti-estrogen Letrozole upregulates ERBeta.

Differential effects of aromatase inhibitors and antiestrogens on estrogen receptor expression in breast cancer cells. - PubMed - NCBI

"...tamoxifen and fulvestrant up-regulate ERalpha expression, while aromatase inhibitors increase ERbeta expression..."

 

[jandrade1997]

Agreed, low dose AI like exemestane is certainly a viable approach assuming the person does not have downregulated 5-AR from finasteride, heavy use of marijuana or opioids, obesity, etc. Then even with AI their DHT synthesis won't move much. DHT is a neusteroid too and vital for male well-being. Most of the positive mental/mood effects of T are due to conversion to DHT. So, there are a number of ways to address the low androgen issue and all I am saying is that a definition of positive result needs to incorporate improvement in DHT synthesis/levels as well.
Androgen Deficiency As The Main Cause Of Chronic Disease In Males
Testosterone rapidly reduces anxiety in male house mice (Mus musculus). - PubMed - NCBI
Testosterone's analgesic, anxiolytic, and cognitive-enhancing effects may be due in part to actions of its 5alpha-reduced metabolites in the hippoc... - PubMed - NCBI
Testosterone's anti-anxiety and analgesic effects may be due in part to actions of its 5alpha-reduced metabolites in the hippocampus. - PubMed - NCBI

Do you know of literature on the link between cannabis and downregulated 5ar?

 

[haidut]

Do you know of literature on the link between cannabis and downregulated 5ar?

I think Peat provided some in that thread with his email responses to people asking him questions (including weed use).

 

[Kyle Bigman]

Mechanisms of dihydrotestosterone action on resveratrol-induced anti-proliferation in breast cancer cells with different ERα status



ER-Alpha is the receptor through which Estrogen does most of its damage and tumor growth promotion, whereas ER-Beta has anti-proliferative properties and is activated by some phytoestrogens that have been shown to inhibit cancer growth and which consumption has been linked to lower cancer risks in epidemiological studies. This could explain why DHT may cause hair loss; while DHT is famed to be a non-aromatizable androgen this study shows that it directly triggers the most damageful estrogen receptor.

In the same study we see that DHT reduces p53, an apoptotic gene which is muted in most cancers. For instance, estrogen and iron also inhibit p53. p53 induces igfbp3 which is low in male baldness pattern sufferers.

I've also posted a study some times ago which shows that DHT is triggered by stress, and while it has some protective functions against stress it doesn't make sense that low-stress males who have lower DHT than highly stressed males are missing on health benefits. Stress is estrogenic and pro-cancer by triggering cortisol, estrogen and DHT.[/QUOTE

@haidut posted a study which said that DHT is an estrogen receptor antagonist. So, are these in direct conflict?

I believe hair loss is due to low progesterone, or imbalance of progesterone/estrogen. DHT is upregulated to replace progesterone, because it has similar effects. Since coming off finasteride I have suffered from autoimmune-like symptoms especially after getting sick. I assume this is because finasteride upregulated estrogen. So, I am trying to find estrogen-antagonists for when I am sick, as well as increasing my T3 and progesterone levels.

 

[TheBeard]

I’m going to start applying DHT in DMSO to my scrotum from next week onwards.

Hope the anti-aromatase effect is enough on its own that I don’t have to « PCT » with exemestane once I discontinue